South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging | Page 6 | Golden Skate

South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 1, 2013
Country
Australia
Patrick Chan is my favorite European skater. :laugh:

If Plushenko was in a wheel chair he would have won. :laugh:

Plushenko in a wheelchair would have skated a cleaner LP than the majority of the men.

Oh wait, I can't laugh about that...
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
No, but it is your biggest fear. I repeat, for the millionth time in a row (OK, I'm exaggerating...). It won't get stripped!

That may be true but this whole thing is about taking away sotnikovas gold. That what it is all about. A rule change saying relatives of people who are leaders of their home countries federation not being allowed to judge anymore would probably be known as the sotnikova judging rule. Any rule that came from this would probably be known As part of the sotnikova corruption case. The sotnikova disclosure of scores rule. I mean I would be surprised if the isu really would be like "Keep the gold" to sotnikova!
 

usethis2

Medalist
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
So what. ISU changed the IJS after Vancouver so that 3A is valued properly and lowered GOE scale of triple jumps. It's not called anti-Yuna change, but rather a reasonable and fairer rule.
 

ManyCairns

Medalist
Joined
Mar 12, 2007
Country
United-States
I feel as if people are biased to look fair.
Scores at Sochi was very hard to understand. But it feels like everyone is saying o well, there may have been some overscoring but it happened let's move on. besides, it's nobody's fault because adelina probably didn't make it to happen and it's unfair to bash her.
Regardless of the fact that it's probably a long shot to change the results I think there should legitimately be more outrage about the results and judging for the sake of FS. If anyone honestly, wholeheartedly believes that Adelina deserved the score of 224.59 i think he/she is delusional. We all know that judging FS will always be somewhat subjective and up to personal taste but that's exactly why the standard of judging needs to be transparent and up to the consistent standard that rules provide. That wasn't done at the olympics and I think any talk besides that is very off the point.
I think part of the problem is us, the fans, eating up the results of flawed judging, seeing it as problems of emotional fans and national pride.

:agree:

This. And the obvious huge conflicts of interest in the persons named to tech and judging panels should never be allowed in the first place -- more complacency.

Often, too, there seems to be a huge desire to justify the situation by saying either the placements were correct, so who cares about the actual value of the score; or to assume that the anomalies will sort themselves out at the next comp, or the comp after that, so don't get too worried. Or, as you said, don't complain because that's bashing the skater, not the system, or that's just the way it is, etc., etc.

I doubt that this complaint will go anywhere but I am glad that the attempt was made.
 

skatingpunk

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
In tennis circles it is widely acknowledged that Serena Williams's loss to Jennifer Capriati at the quarterfinals of the US Open in 2004 resulted in the implementation of the Hawkeye line calling system. In that match, chair umpire Mariana Alves blew call after call after call. I was there for that match, and it was atrocious. It was plain to see that you could not leave officiating solely in the hands of humans. Jennifer got a "W", but Serena's loss that night brought about tremendous change for the sport. Hopefully Yuna's loss here will spur something similar in skating.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Skatings not like tennis so the whole event can be rescored but now you are dealing with an entire federation and many individuals saying one result is entirely illegimate which is basically prejudicial against getting that result again.
 

skatingpunk

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
If the Olympics have to be rescored, so be it. I was speaking more about the future. How wonderful it would be if Hawkeye could do away with incompetent tech panels.
 

shellbell757

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
Knowing the ISU, they will probably just try to sweep the whole thing under the rug, but it would be nice if it led to more accountability and transparency in the judging process. At the very least there should be stricter guidelines for panel selection to avoid conflicts of interest or the inclusion of officials who have been found guilty of cheating. Athletes who spend their lives training should all have a fair shot-no matter which country they represent.
 

dress

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
but it would be nice if it led to more accountability and transparency in the judging process. At the very least there should be stricter guidelines for panel selection to avoid conflicts of interest or the inclusion of officials who have been found guilty of cheating. Athletes who spend their lives training should all have a fair shot-no matter which country they represent.

:agree:
 

skateluvr

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 23, 2011
:laugh: Did I seriously just read that. This isnt even an opinion but a flat bold faced lie. It does not matter what YOU or I think in this case, you are speaking of others and inventing something that is not true. The U.S is basically the ONLY commentary crew in the world (along with Russia I would guess) who didnt get into the controversy. The Canadian, British, German, Italian (yes Italian), French, Japanese commentators were all irate with the judging and the results. Katarina Witt called it one of the worst results in skating history, you know the multi Olympic Champion ladies competitor. You know it is better to say nothing at all about something you obviously know NOTHING about then to make up a random guess at something, hoping that you were right and nobody else would notice, and end up looking like a clown in the end.

You are always so nasty pang. So yeah, Katarina was not happy. I have a life, albeit a hard one, and have not followed this terrible travesty as the REAL WORLD news is enough to perseverate about. You have been irate about YuNa not getting gold. Maybe medication would help? It has been a while. So list all the incredible experts that said YuNa was robbed. Someone always is in the Olympics. But why so upset only about one placement. The judging bias affected everyone. Do you care about them? However many you list who disagreed are also very biased YuNa fans and do not like IJS and are upset for a long time over the sport matters more aspect.

The men's event should be the focus of how lousy IJS is, the expectations of transitions from crazy setups, etc. The ladies, a few actually did this IJS stuff well- Sotnikova's program was an IJS masterpiece-ugly, uninspiring-yet she ticked off all the boxes very well. She did it better than Yuna can at age 17 and not injured. What is the upset about? Adelina is a great IJS product. And since when doesn't the home team get more support? Russia had it down. Total silence for any non Russian, and likely intimidation to judges and tech specialists. This result should surprise no one and is not the worst I've seen.

Many commentators don't care for her LP but admitted she won and they prefer YuNa. Michelle Kwan was won. There, I have trumped the former Stasi spy Katarina Witt. Who listens to her anyway? Her scores were inflated. She got beauty points too like Yuna. For every person you say picked Yuna as winner, others can be found to say the opposite. The older 6.0 skaters would not like Adelina's skating or that fugly program. It was the putin Olympics. It could have been worse, really.

Why is the Korean Fed doing this now???? YuNa was crying-why????? Upset over silver or relieved. I have avoided most all the threads. There is no way to satisfy an uber. YuNa did lose. She was "tepid" according to Paul Wylie, a great skater, a premier artiste of the 6.0 era. I am surprised anyone still cares. We cannot fix the judging in ISU. Only the insiders can do things to imrove the IJS. I think this is a dead issue and it makes the Korean Fed look a bit silly. So list your experts, Pantongfan, but leave your nastiness aside. No need. She lost to a very technically good skater. At least it was not ridiculous like the Vancouver win over a girl who did 3 triple axels. That was overscoring. If it was Peyongchang, Yuna would win. So what else is new? Yawn.
 

cooper

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
You are always so nasty pang. So yeah, Katarina was not happy. I have a life, albeit a hard one, and have not followed this terrible travesty as the REAL WORLD news is enough to perseverate about. You have been irate about YuNa not getting gold. Maybe medication would help? It has been a while. So list all the incredible experts that said YuNa was robbed. Someone always is in the Olympics. But why so upset only about one placement. The judging bias affected everyone. Do you care about them? However many you list who disagreed are also very biased YuNa fans and do not like IJS and are upset for a long time over the sport matters more aspect.

The men's event should be the focus of how lousy IJS is, the expectations of transitions from crazy setups, etc. The ladies, a few actually did this IJS stuff well- Sotnikova's program was an IJS masterpiece-ugly, uninspiring-yet she ticked off all the boxes very well. She did it better than Yuna can at age 17 and not injured. What is the upset about? Adelina is a great IJS product. And since when doesn't the home team get more support? Russia had it down. Total silence for any non Russian, and likely intimidation to judges and tech specialists. This result should surprise no one and is not the worst I've seen.

Many commentators don't care for her LP but admitted she won and they prefer YuNa. Michelle Kwan was won. There, I have trumped the former Stasi spy Katarina Witt. Who listens to her anyway? Her scores were inflated. She got beauty points too like Yuna. For every person you say picked Yuna as winner, others can be found to say the opposite. The older 6.0 skaters would not like Adelina's skating or that fugly program. It was the putin Olympics. It could have been worse, really.

Why is the Korean Fed doing this now???? YuNa was crying-why????? Upset over silver or relieved. I have avoided most all the threads. There is no way to satisfy an uber. YuNa did lose. She was "tepid" according to Paul Wylie, a great skater, a premier artiste of the 6.0 era. I am surprised anyone still cares. We cannot fix the judging in ISU. Only the insiders can do things to imrove the IJS. I think this is a dead issue and it makes the Korean Fed look a bit silly. So list your experts, Pantongfan, but leave your nastiness aside. No need. She lost to a very technically good skater. At least it was not ridiculous like the Vancouver win over a girl who did 3 triple axels. That was overscoring. If it was Peyongchang, Yuna would win. So what else is new? Yawn.

the vancouver rules when regards to 3A was not worth that much at that time.. after that season they introduced the changes.. so you basically comparing the points back then from now... :sarcasm: and there was only 1 korean judge in that event.. unlike here.. :rolleye:
 

capcomeback

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 23, 2014
You are always so nasty pang. So yeah, Katarina was not happy. I have a life, albeit a hard one, and have not followed this terrible travesty as the REAL WORLD news is enough to perseverate about. You have been irate about YuNa not getting gold. Maybe medication would help? It has been a while. So list all the incredible experts that said YuNa was robbed. Someone always is in the Olympics. But why so upset only about one placement. The judging bias affected everyone. Do you care about them? However many you list who disagreed are also very biased YuNa fans and do not like IJS and are upset for a long time over the sport matters more aspect.

The men's event should be the focus of how lousy IJS is, the expectations of transitions from crazy setups, etc. The ladies, a few actually did this IJS stuff well- Sotnikova's program was an IJS masterpiece-ugly, uninspiring-yet she ticked off all the boxes very well. She did it better than Yuna can at age 17 and not injured. What is the upset about? Adelina is a great IJS product. And since when doesn't the home team get more support? Russia had it down. Total silence for any non Russian, and likely intimidation to judges and tech specialists. This result should surprise no one and is not the worst I've seen.

Many commentators don't care for her LP but admitted she won and they prefer YuNa. Michelle Kwan was won. There, I have trumped the former Stasi spy Katarina Witt. Who listens to her anyway? Her scores were inflated. She got beauty points too like Yuna. For every person you say picked Yuna as winner, others can be found to say the opposite. The older 6.0 skaters would not like Adelina's skating or that fugly program. It was the putin Olympics. It could have been worse, really.

Why is the Korean Fed doing this now???? YuNa was crying-why????? Upset over silver or relieved. I have avoided most all the threads. There is no way to satisfy an uber. YuNa did lose. She was "tepid" according to Paul Wylie, a great skater, a premier artiste of the 6.0 era. I am surprised anyone still cares. We cannot fix the judging in ISU. Only the insiders can do things to imrove the IJS. I think this is a dead issue and it makes the Korean Fed look a bit silly. So list your experts, Pantongfan, but leave your nastiness aside. No need. She lost to a very technically good skater. At least it was not ridiculous like the Vancouver win over a girl who did 3 triple axels. That was overscoring. If it was Peyongchang, Yuna would win. So what else is new? Yawn.

The tech panel blew several calls between Adelina's and Yuna's skates. It's easy to check boxes when people are following behind you completing the ones you miss.

No excuse for the level of GOE/PCS inflation in Adelina's program (and Julia and Gracie's for that matter). I admire you for focusing on the real world, but apparently you haven't been paying attention to what's going on in the skating world recently. if you had been reading a number of posts in this thread instead of jumping in cold, you might have realized that there was some debate/consternation on the Canadian, Italian and British broadcasts and some notable people in the skating world who have decried the judging/officiating in Sochi in the ladies competition (in addition to Katarina Witt, Dick Button, Michael Weiss, Silvia Fontana, Kurt Browining, Brian Boitano, Ryan Bradley etc.). While the NBC crew was somewaht muted in their response, both Sandra and Scott mentioned that after, Adelina skated that she was not the component/artistic skater that Carolina Kostner was (before seeing the scores). After seeing the scores Johnny Weir called Adelina's component scores "Very generous."

So, there you are....
 

jyj822

Spectator
Joined
Jan 17, 2014
She lost to a very technically good skater. At least it was not ridiculous like the Vancouver win over a girl who did 3 triple axels. That was overscoring. If it was Peyongchang, Yuna would win. So what else is new? Yawn.

Well, I don't think that Adelina is one of the 'very technically good skaters'. A 'Technically good skater' should perform all of the components clean and exquisitely. With respect to Adelina's FS, she couldn't show the flawless skating, correct-edged lutz, full-rotated 3T in 3Fltz-3T, criteria-matched Lv 4 step sequences. Did the Adelina's FS match to the criteria for the 'technically good skater'? No way. "Planning and attempting to be the best program' can't be equal to 'doing best program'.

In addition, I don't think that this problem is a matter of 'home-inflation'. It is a matter of 'match fixing'.
 

Rubirosa

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 15, 2014
But I have long thought that Yuna has been overscored - for years. And it irks me that there has been so much abuse and hatred directed at a young girl who isn't even an adult yet! - all in the name of Yuna being "robbed". Yuna herself is happy, cheerful, classy. Her fans/supporters/fed could take a lesson from her.
Classy person usually doesn't choose to stay away when the crime is committed. Classy person would do something or try to do something to stop the crime. Cyberbullying, death-threat is a crime. Yuna fans are doing it against Adelina. Yuna is quiet with crime being comittied by her fans because of her. Why? Maybe she doesn't want to lose some of her fans even knowing that they are criminals.

Do we have another example when fans of a skater commited a crime against their favorite skater's rival?
Without Yuna Korea is trying to protect their figure skating legacy for the future. The feeling is that the judges are potentially pro-Europe these days and they are hoping that the ISU makes it harder to allow such biases creep into these panels.
"makeup of the judging panel and whether a fair judgment was possible"

Korea says that a fair judgment was never possible if the makeup of judging panel doesn't meet their requirement. In future it means- Japanese judge is out, pro-European judges are out. Else? What idiotic nationalism. It gives bad example to others. Every time when a Japanese skater wins, someone can file a complain that a Japanese judge was in panel. Canadian skater wins- Canadian judge was in panel, so on. It's stupid and disrespectful. Soon I will cry for Yuna. She really can't escape. Or doesn't want to?

How judges are chosen? Not by drawing? Korea saying the drawing that put a Russian judge in panel was fixed? Tech specialists are not by drawing, okay. But if we follow Korean logics, it will lead us to the situation when no specialists from top figure skating countries can be in tech panel.

If a Korean tech specialist was in tech panel, they would file complain too? :laugh: Not if Yuna won, then it's fair judgment and the panel that put a Korean judge was made up correctly. No violation, no rules broken. When Yuna doesn't win... The show must on. ;)
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Knowing the ISU, they will probably just try to sweep the whole thing under the rug, but it would be nice if it led to more accountability and transparency in the judging process. At the very least there should be stricter guidelines for panel selection to avoid conflicts of interest or the inclusion of officials who have been found guilty of cheating. Athletes who spend their lives training should all have a fair shot-no matter which country they represent.

Isu could ban people like alla shvetskova from judging again. She could judge if she got a divorce. Maybe not even then. If you are married or were married to an official of a skating federation you give up judging forever.
 

usethis2

Medalist
Joined
Feb 11, 2014
Knowing the ISU, they will probably just try to sweep the whole thing under the rug, but it would be nice if it led to more accountability and transparency in the judging process. At the very least there should be stricter guidelines for panel selection to avoid conflicts of interest or the inclusion of officials who have been found guilty of cheating. Athletes who spend their lives training should all have a fair shot-no matter which country they represent.

Even if they do so, the history will remember. We have videos and the Internet these days. Those who want to erase or revise what happened will be solely disappointed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Figure...nter_Olympics_–_Ladies'_singles#Controversies

All the judges names are there and can be easily referenced in the future.

And Russian skating fans are not blind. They have even more critical and better educated eyes than some of the posters here, it seems. (Thanks go to melissa_ire)

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...roversy-Thread&p=890578&viewfull=1#post890578

Hi everyone, this is my first post here. I can’t contribute any technical knowledge to the discussions but Russian is my first language so that comes useful sometimes. Seeing that we are over 200 pages on this thread and no end in view, I decided to check what people on other side of the ‘barricade’ think, off I went and read all 94 pages of a ladies Olympics LP thread on one of Russian fs forums. It made an interesting read! I was pleasantly surprised that there is a lot of warm affection towards American skaters, Gracie & Polina especially, Ashley too. Carolina is simply adored by most, Yuna is well respected but not particularly liked. Mao much loved. But to business! Comparing what people write here and ‘there’ about judging controversy I can report one major difference: most people here suspect biased judging in Sochi, but all people there take it as a fact. There is universal acceptance that Adelina’s win was helped by Lakernik & Co. Opinions on whether she did deserve to win differ somewhat but that it was indeed a home cooked win not doubted at all! Even those who think that she did deserve OGM, admit that it is forever tainted and not as enjoyable a win as it could be, given this is the First OGM for Russian ladies. Do we need to say more? One more observation, general public in Russia ie people who watch FS once in four years were more upset that Julia did badly than that Adelina won. Julia has become a people’s princess these Olympics, the nation took her into their hearts, she is Julie (affectionate from of Julia) to all… I don’t think Adelina ever will be as popular and it doesn’t help that she comes across as rather arrogant in her interviews. Well, that’s about all I wanted to say. And yes, I am not Julia’s fan nor Yuna’s or Carolina’s. I do dislike Adelina’s style of skating but wishing her well all the same. (emphasis mine)
 

winky97

Medalist
Joined
Mar 3, 2014
This is an effort to try to take sotnikovas gold away and give it to Yuna. I am not saying a total investigation and release of all scores makes that a guarantee just that the issue is that revoking of sotnikovas gold is the number one priority. Because that is the number one priority is might happen.

I don't think this is a effort to take Sotnikova's gold away. To strip an athlete's medal it would have to be shown that the athlete cheated, not just that the athlete benefitted from questionable judging. Since these accusations are against the judging, and not Sotnikova, she gets to keep her gold. If it were determined that the judges acted improperly, the more likely result would be like what happened in a Salt Lake situation where the two gold medals awarded.

I actually read somewhere that South Korean Skating Federation has taken some heat from the citizens of South Korea over Viktor Ahn and for the perception that they did not stand up for Yuna Kim after the controversial ladies' event. So, if they actually filed anything, it would more likely be to show that they willing to stand up for their athletes. It is probably too late at this point for any kind on challenge. Also, I read that Yuna Kim has opposed any challenge, as she has moved on with her life.

Honestly, I did not agree with the results, but at this stage of the game South Korea should probably just leave it alone, particularly since Yuna Kim is opposed to it. Lobby for some rule changes to address judging concerns. A good start would be getting rid of anonymous judging.
 

fruitbasket

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
You keep talking about stripping Adelina of her medal. This will not happen regardless of what they discover because it would invalidate the entire results (so Yuna's and Carolina's medals would get stripped too). There is no fair way of remedying the situation (including a gold to Yuna and taking away Adelina's gold- it should not happen).

Please stop focusing on Adelina's gold and start focusing on the problems in judging system. Get the Feds out of the judging business!

there is way to stop/ overhaul isu/ioc... remove notoriously subjective and favoritism judging system so that 2014 sochi ladies short/free program results will not happen again..
 

fruitbasket

Rinkside
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
You are always so nasty pang. So yeah, Katarina was not happy. I have a life, albeit a hard one, and have not followed this terrible travesty as the REAL WORLD news is enough to perseverate about. You have been irate about YuNa not getting gold. Maybe medication would help? It has been a while. So list all the incredible experts that said YuNa was robbed. Someone always is in the Olympics. But why so upset only about one placement. The judging bias affected everyone. Do you care about them? However many you list who disagreed are also very biased YuNa fans and do not like IJS and are upset for a long time over the sport matters more aspect.

The men's event should be the focus of how lousy IJS is, the expectations of transitions from crazy setups, etc. The ladies, a few actually did this IJS stuff well- Sotnikova's program was an IJS masterpiece-ugly, uninspiring-yet she ticked off all the boxes very well. She did it better than Yuna can at age 17 and not injured. What is the upset about? Adelina is a great IJS product. And since when doesn't the home team get more support? Russia had it down. Total silence for any non Russian, and likely intimidation to judges and tech specialists. This result should surprise no one and is not the worst I've seen.

Many commentators don't care for her LP but admitted she won and they prefer YuNa. Michelle Kwan was won. There, I have trumped the former Stasi spy Katarina Witt. Who listens to her anyway? Her scores were inflated. She got beauty points too like Yuna. For every person you say picked Yuna as winner, others can be found to say the opposite. The older 6.0 skaters would not like Adelina's skating or that fugly program. It was the putin Olympics. It could have been worse, really.

Why is the Korean Fed doing this now???? YuNa was crying-why????? Upset over silver or relieved. I have avoided most all the threads. There is no way to satisfy an uber. YuNa did lose. She was "tepid" according to Paul Wylie, a great skater, a premier artiste of the 6.0 era. I am surprised anyone still cares. We cannot fix the judging in ISU. Only the insiders can do things to imrove the IJS. I think this is a dead issue and it makes the Korean Fed look a bit silly. So list your experts, Pantongfan, but leave your nastiness aside. No need. She lost to a very technically good skater. At least it was not ridiculous like the Vancouver win over a girl who did 3 triple axels. That was overscoring. If it was Peyongchang, Yuna would win. So what else is new? Yawn.

this is not dead issue....is on going issue.....
no....korean fed did a right thing....
are you saying that the winning gold medal is based on the host nation not the performance? wowww....you just like one of sochi judge panel....
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Nice thought but I don't think anything much is going to come of it. (Why did they wait so long, anyway?)

I wouldn't trust the ISU or IOC to do any real investigating...too many conflicts of interest. You need an independent organization to come in and handle it.

Everyone's saying to get rid of anonymous judging, and I agree, but that's not enough. Clear and open identification of judges didn't prevent SLC 2002 pairs from happening, did it? I really think the corruption goes all the way to the top. The ISU would need to clean house similar to the way the USOC did after Chicago lost the 2016 bid, and go even further - get rid of all corrupt officials from the top down. Remove federations' involvement in picking judges. Make it a paid position and create a system similar to that used for referees/officials in team sports. You'll never get rid of bias as long as it remains a judged sport but at least do everything you can to minimize bias.

Maybe technology could be improved to where revolutions in jumps and spins are counted automatically (and are not reliant on a person to do it)? :p
 
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