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Thread: South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

  1. #1636
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    If a complaint gets filed with Court for Arbitration of Sport, I hope it looks into the composition of the technical panel, which clearly made many incorrect decisions in favor of Sotnikova.

    There were three callers on the tech panel. Two of them were Russian. Alexander Lakernik is Russian and lives in Russia, and Olga Baranova was born in Moscow and lived in Russia before moving to Finland. It takes two technical members to downgrade jumps and levels, so Lakernik and Baranova, the two Russians, could have colluded to rig the results beyond the control of the other caller, Vanessa Gusmeroli (France).

  2. #1637
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ven View Post
    If a complaint gets filed with Court for Arbitration of Sport, I hope it looks into the composition of the technical panel, which clearly made many incorrect decisions in favor of Sotnikova.

    There were three callers on the tech panel. Two of them were Russian. Alexander Lakernik is Russian and lives in Russia, and Olga Baranova was born in Moscow and lived in Russia before moving to Finland. It takes two technical members to downgrade jumps and levels, so Lakernik and Baranova, the two Russians, could have colluded to rig the results beyond the control of the other caller, Vanessa Gusmeroli (France).
    When a Korean official was on pannel in Vancouver, you did not bring his nationality ad some isssue. Very poor argument.

  3. #1638
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich2 View Post
    When a Korean official was on pannel in Vancouver, you did not bring his nationality ad some isssue. Very poor argument.
    If you can show me any senior ISU event with two Koreans on the tech panel, I'll give you a million dollars.

    But thanks for proving my point for me. Kim and Arakawa recieved their technical marks with three different callers from three different backgrounds. Sotnikova only received her fraudulent and incorrect marks by having two of three Russian callers who could overrule anything they wanted to.

  4. #1639
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    Quote Originally Posted by 96skiluvr View Post
    Yuna clearly didn't care whether she won or not, so why doesn't she tell her federation to back off, accept the result, and move on? What's done is done. Accept it and move on.
    Not her business anyway. Yuna did move on since Feb 21st but the rest of Koreans defenitely not, they are the ones who pressured KSU to stand up, that's why. And they are a public in general , not just one or even few people, so it's not like they will listen to you when you sit in front of your desktop then typed "accept it and move on"

  5. #1640
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ven View Post
    If you can show me any senior ISU event with two Koreans on the tech panel, I'll give you a million dollars.

    But thanks for proving my point for me. Kim and Arakawa recieved their technical marks with three different callers from three different backgrounds. Sotnikova only received her fraudulent and incorrect marks by having two of three Russian callers who could overrule anything they wanted to.
    You do not know how a French caller voted. Maybe she was in agreement and there was no need to overrule anything. Your argument is based on nationality. It is wild. I can see very well why ISU dismissed it.

  6. #1641
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    I wonder what kind of new desperate measures will be needed

  7. #1642
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ven View Post
    If a complaint gets filed with Court for Arbitration of Sport, I hope it looks into the composition of the technical panel, which clearly made many incorrect decisions in favor of Sotnikova.

    There were three callers on the tech panel. Two of them were Russian. Alexander Lakernik is Russian and lives in Russia, and Olga Baranova was born in Moscow and lived in Russia before moving to Finland. It takes two technical members to downgrade jumps and levels, so Lakernik and Baranova, the two Russians, could have colluded to rig the results beyond the control of the other caller, Vanessa Gusmeroli (France).
    *Yawn*

    I haven't heard that before. Except the last 1000 times.

  8. #1643
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    Well, at least they're not stupid enough to continue with the "waaaah the replay operator was Russian!" rubbish now...

  9. #1644
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich2 View Post
    You do not know how a French caller voted. Maybe she was in agreement and there was no need to overrule anything. Your argument is based on nationality. It is wild. I can see very well why ISU dismissed it.
    it's time to release those marks.. why not?? the ISU should release those..so that everyone will know who scored who.. why not just prove that there wasn't any biases or abnormal scoring.. come on.. just to shut up everyone.. and yes including those persistent korean fans... is ISU scared??

  10. #1645
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooper View Post
    it's time to release those marks.. why not?? the ISU should release those..so that everyone will know who scored who.. why not just prove that there wasn't any biases or abnormal scoring.. come on.. just to shut up everyone.. and yes including those persistent korean fans... is ISU scared??
    The point is, KSU didn't ask for the identity of the judges and relative scores. They should have added that demand in the complaint.

  11. #1646
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    The point is, KSU didn't ask for the identity of the judges and relative scores. They should have added that demand in the complaint.
    i know.. but my point is.. if ISU said that there wasn't any biases based on their decision per se.. most of these korean fans will argue that they're hiding.. so why not prove to everyone what they said is true.. release those scores from the judges.. for once they should show transparency and accountability.. to prove to all those doubters wrong and that the scoring system is working..

    of course they are STILL hiding to anonymity.. that's why.. they're scared..

  12. #1647
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    The ISU's position is that they do not have to prove anything to anyone. They do not care what the KSU demands or does not demand.

  13. #1648
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    The ISU's position is that they do not have to prove anything to anyone. They do not care what the KSU demands or does not demand.
    i know.. and that's the problem..

    now i feel justified that the scoring in sochi was a fraud..

  14. #1649
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich2 View Post
    When a Korean official was on pannel in Vancouver, you did not bring his nationality ad some isssue. Very poor argument.
    Your argument is poorer. So basically no US, Japanese, Canadian or Russian skaters can EVER question any judgement just because their nationality has ALWAYS been part of the judging make up in this sport? Are you really claiming the Korean official cheated at Vancouver? Otherwise I don't see what is the point of your argument.

    In many ways, too much emphasis has been raised on nationalities, but not enough on the all the individuals that makes up the panel and personal history (only known to ISU and their own federation) due to the anonymity clause. Whether each judges have given their individual marks fairly, with unbiased eye that include the technical panel when the results indicate collectively they are so far from the ball park, particularly wrong calls have been made to specific individuals.

    US and apparently Russia are NOW pushing for removing anonymous judging. They should practice what they preach. ISU should reveal ALL of the judges mark at Sochi including all members of the technical panel and let the 'fact' speak for it self on what would deem 'acceptable' and 'unacceptable'. Whether it is 'fair' for someone to mark Yuna Kim 135 at the same time mark Adelina Sotnikova 155+ for example. I would also be very curious on the marks awarded on Mao, Carolina, Ashley, Gracie, and pretty much all the Chinese skaters as well.

    The complaint content sent by KSU/Lawyer is a sham. It shows they neither care nor understand the real issue. It has always been about speed skating for them, so unsurprisingly you had that Speedy memo circulated unofficially 'contemplating' doing them a favour. It is how it works in ISU. It is a hopeless situation overall, due to the way cronyism has always worked between IOC, ISU, its power federations, big businesses and money. The judging panel selection is a direct product of this socio makeup which is against the principles of fairness and impartiality when one really think about it.

  15. #1650
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    FS really ought to take note from the artistic gymnastics scoring system. They're similar in the sense that there is a "technical" and "artistic" mark (and that they moved away from a "perfect" mark system, 6.0 and the 10). However, you haven't heard of cheating in gymnastics ever since the eastern-block judging in the late 80s for 3 simple reasons:

    1. Judges are not allowed to give marks to athletes from their own country. This includes the difficulty panel which is somewhat equivalent to the technical callers in FS. I am still astounded that no one seems to care about that fact in FS. You can't tell me that there aren't enough qualified judges (who haven't cheated in the past) that you can hire who don't bring forth that huge conflict of interest. Nor can you tell me that a judge can be truly impartial to an athlete from their country.

    2. In the all-around and team competitions, judges are randomly selected and only give scores to one group of athletes (~6 gymnasts out of 24-30 in total). This eliminates the possibility of fixing results because there are so many judges. It may seem messy, but it works.

    3. Judges are not anonymous and their respective scores for each athlete are released after each competition. Also, if a certain judge's score deviates too much from the average of all the other judges for that athlete, they are suspended (whether they are attempting to fix results or are just incompetent at judging).

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