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Thread: South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

  1. #1711
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    Let's do this more graphically

  2. #1712
    Yulia and Ruslena team forever! Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesWay View Post
    Let's do this more graphically
    I'm afraid that won't help either.

    p.s. I think this topic should be put together with the other on on the same subject. Just a suggestion.

  3. #1713
    Yuna's Ice Rink cooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    There is no controversy about Sotnikova's win outside of South Korea and some skating forums. Sotnikova has the higher jump content, superior spins and steps. It's quite arrogant to assert that a technically inferior skater should "win" as long as she skates "cleanly" because she is the "queen". Maybe the results could be different in other countries, but in this sport, it requires absolutely superior performances to beat the home favorite. It's simply impossible with Kim's content. Probably the "judging" at London worlds gave her (and S Koreans) false confidences.
    what superior steps? she didn't require the level 4 as bop pointed in the other thread.. and the jump content should be rewarded through execution.. she simply didn't execute those jumps.. and technical inferior skater??

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    Quote Originally Posted by cooper View Post
    what superior steps? she didn't require the level 4 as bop pointed in the other thread.. and the jump content should be rewarded through execution.. she simply didn't execute those jumps.. and technical inferior skater??
    Well, Kim's steps are just average. She has never done anything worthy of level 4 in her career, whereas Sotnikova was rewarded level 4 more often. In general, Callers are not so consistent on steps. I don't argue the validity of a particular call. Reputation is important in this sport. In short, Kim was not given a special favor because it was her enemy territory. Same thing can apply to jumps. It's a total fantasy to assume Kim's low BV free program can always "earn" 74+ points TES. The GOE is not so reliable as the BV. They are always swayed by the judges mood and atmospheres.

    For example, Shin Amano is known for generous calls on steps. Just check the protocol of this year's junior worlds ladies. Many of them are rewarded their first "level 4" in their careers.

  5. #1715
    Rejoicing in the land of Kwan kwanatic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by YesWay View Post
    Let's do this more graphically

  6. #1716
    Yuna's Ice Rink cooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    Well, Kim's steps are just average. She has never done anything worthy of level 4 in her career, whereas Sotnikova was rewarded level 4 more often. In general, Callers are not so consistent on steps. I don't argue the validity of a particular call. Reputation is important in this sport. In short, Kim was not given a special favor because it was her enemy territory. Same thing can apply to jumps. It's a total fantasy to assume Kim's low BV free program can always "earn" 74+ points TES. The GOE is not so reliable as the BV. They are always swayed by the judges mood and atmospheres.

    For example, Shin Amano is known for generous calls on steps. Just check the protocol of this year's junior worlds ladies. Many of them are rewarded their first "level 4" in their careers.
    yuna did managed to get the level 4 step sequence.. read bop's thread..

    as for the base value.. yuna had more difficulty w/ her 3lutz/3toe in the sp.. and yet adelina who had the inferior bv in the sp still managed to tie w/ yuna in the sp.. so i don't agree w/ this argument about strong base values should be rewarded more..because yuna was not even rewarded for it in the sp.. adelina had more difficult program because of her base values in the lp.. but she didn't execute them.. she never got called on her flutz and the underrotated toe.. not to mention the 2 footed jump..

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    Quote Originally Posted by cooper View Post
    yuna did managed to get the level 4 step sequence.. read bop's thread..

    as for the base value.. yuna had more difficulty w/ her 3lutz/3toe in the sp.. and yet adelina who had the inferior bv in the sp still managed to tie w/ yuna in the sp.. so i don't agree w/ this argument about strong base values should be rewarded more..because yuna was not even rewarded for it in the sp.. adelina had more difficult program because of her base values in the lp.. but she didn't execute them.. she never got called on her flutz and the underrotated toe.. not to mention the 2 footed jump..
    If you see the inconsistent calls on steps, there's no "guarantee" of level 4. Anyone who is not in the favored positition should not count on that. She needs advantages in the BV in order to counter the home favorite. GOE is not trustworthy. Six triples can't beat seven triples. It's a common knowledge that even a six year old can understand.

    anyway, the point gap between Sot and Kim is bigger than one arbitrary call can explain. It only explains that Sotnikova was favored over Kim. Even so, it's not like "Plushenko lost to quadless Lysacek". A six triples skater (the only one in the top ten at Sochi) was beaten by a seven triples skater.

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    Here we go again

    Quote Originally Posted by Alba View Post
    p.s. I think this topic should be put together with the other on on the same subject. Just a suggestion.
    I agree - this should be merged into the original "Korea complains" thread.

    This news did not warrant a new thread, especially since it of course immediately turned into YET ANOTHER another platform for everyone to wheel out their Sochi arguments.

    Pointless exercise, because everybody has made up their minds by now.
    There is nothing new to be said.
    Everybody is entrenched.
    Nobody is going to convince anybody to change their minds about anything.

  9. #1719
    Yuna's Ice Rink cooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AliceInWonderland View Post
    No. That's not what I meant. What I meant was that Balkov alone could not have done much so getting angry at him alone is wrong. He may have cheated, he may not have, we don't know. All I'm saying is that, had Balkov not been on the panel, Adelina would have still won.
    you're missing the point here.. whether balkov made an impact or not.. the point is once YOU CHEATED you have no right to be a judge anymore.. how in the world a judge gets a chance again in the most important event like the olympics?? a cheater is always a cheater.. and has no business to be there!

    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    If you see the inconsistent calls on steps, there's no "guarantee" of level 4. Anyone who is not in the favored positition should not count on that. She needs advantages in the BV in order to counter the home favorite. GOE is not trustworthy. Six triples can't beat seven triples. It's a common knowledge that even a six year old can understand.

    anyway, the point gap between Sot and Kim is bigger than one arbitrary call can explain. It only explains that Sotnikova was favored over Kim. Even so, it's not like "Plushenko lost to quadless Lysacek". A six triples skater (the only one in the top ten at Sochi) was beaten by a seven triples skater.
    no. bop's thread explained it.. read his thread and try make your own counter argument..

    and sotnikova didn't have a 7 triple program.. she didn't execute it.. she wasn't called for her obvious flutz and the underrotated 3toe..

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    Quote Originally Posted by YesWay View Post
    This news did not warrant a new thread, especially since it of course immediately turned into YET ANOTHER another platform for everyone to wheel out their Sochi arguments.

    Everybody has made up their minds by now.
    There is nothing new to be said.
    Everybody is entrenched.
    Nobody is going to convince anybody to change their minds about anything.
    Thank god and thank you

  11. #1721
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich2 View Post
    If seven judges gave Yuna higher GOE, she would have won GOE, isn't it?
    That is the whole point. We don't know.

    Here are the total GOEs of the nine judges, in two different orders.

    KIM 27 26 22 21 20 20 19 17 16
    SOT 26 23 22 19 16 15 31 29 26

    If this matching of judges' scores is the correct one, then five judges favored Kim with one tie. Three judges greatly over-scored Sotnikova while simultaneously lowballing Kim. With this pairing the three Sotnikova judges, by giving exaggerated scores, dominated the majority, who favored Kim.

    Or…

    SOT 31 29 26 26 25 22 19 16 15
    Kim 27 26 22 21 20 20 19 17 16

    Now six judges favored Sotnikova, with one tie, and only two thought Kim's elements were better.

    Which scenario is the factual one? We will never know.
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-06-2014 at 11:15 AM.

  12. #1722
    Yuna's Ice Rink cooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    That is the whole point. We don't know.

    Here are the total GOEs of the nine judges, in two different orders.

    KIM 27 26 22 21 20 20 19 17 16
    SOT 26 23 22 19 16 15 31 29 26

    If this matching of judges' scores is the correct one, then five judges favored Kim with one tie. Three judges greatly over-scored Sotnikova while simultaneously lowballing Kim. With this pairing the three Sotnikova judges, by giving exaggerated scores, dominated the majority, who favored Kim.

    Or…

    SOT 31 29 26 26 25 22 19 16 15
    Kim 27 26 22 21 20 20 19 17 16

    Now six judges favored Sotnikova, with one tie, and only two thought Kim's elements were better.

    Which scenario is the factual one? We will never know.
    that's why they should reveal the scores!! based on ISU's decision that they found no bias from the judges.. so why not reveal those scores?! after all russia and the US advocates to get rid of the anonymous judging.. why not make an example out of this if they have guts and to promote transparency and accountability for the next season/s!

  13. #1723
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    That is the whole point. We don't know.

    Here are the total GOEs of the nine judges, in two different orders.

    KIM 27 26 22 21 20 20 19 17 16
    SOT 26 23 22 19 16 15 31 29 26

    If this matching of judges' scores is the correct one, then five judges favored Kim with one tie. Three judges greatly over-scored Sotnikova while simultaneously lowballing Kim. With this pairing the three Sotnikova judges, by giving exaggerated scores, dominated the majority, who favored Kim.

    Or…

    SOT 31 29 26 26 25 22 19 16 15
    Kim 27 26 22 21 20 20 19 17 16

    Now six judges favored Sotnikova, with one tie, and only two thought Kim's elements were better.

    Which scenario is the factual one? We will never know.
    Lol. You are desperately trying to use 6:0 system to make something up. It is cheat. If the majority of judges indeed favoured Kim, she would have won by simple math. She did not.
    The only real point is that nobody will remember the lawyer's name, sore fans' posts or even the bad KSU. The legacy will go to Kim personaly. Hardly a favour.

  14. #1724
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich2 View Post
    Lol. You are desperately trying to use 6:0 system to make something up. It is cheat. If the majority of judges indeed favoured Kim, she would have won by simple math.
    Utterly false. You have it exactly backward. Under 6.0 it is true that if the majority of judges favor one skater then that skater will win. Under add-up-the points systems it is possible that a majority favors one skater but the other skater wins. Scenario #1 above shows how this is possible for GOEs. Post 85 shows how it is possible for PCSs. It is embarrassing to have to give a simplified example showing how this can occur:

    6.0: Judge 1 gives first place ordinal to skater A. Judge 2 gives first place ordinal to skater A, judge 3 gives first place ordinal to skater B.

    Skater A wins, two first place ordinals to one.

    CoP. Judge 1 gives 9 points to skater A and 8 points to skater B

    Judge 2 gives 9 points to skater A and 8 points to skater B

    Judge C gives 6 points to skater A and 10 points to skater B.

    Do the math. Skater A is favored by the majority of judges, but who wins?

  15. #1725
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    One further point:

    It is not the size of the discrepancy that is at issue. It is the method of determining the winner. Here is another example:

    Judge 1 gives skater A 9.00 and skater B 8.75

    Judge 2 gives skater A 9.00 and skater B 8.75

    Judge 3 gives skater A 8.50 and skater B 9.25.

    Skater A was favored by the majority of judges, but skater B wins. None of the marks is outside the corridor that triggers an investigation.

    But we do not have to make up numbers. In post 86 and in post 137 I used the exact numbers from the protocols. The point is that because of anonymous judging and randomization of judges' scores, we do not know our right foot from our left, our hat from our glove. (We are as helpless as a kitten up a tree.)
    Last edited by Mathman; 06-07-2014 at 05:03 AM.

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