South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

drivingmissdaisy · Mar 23, 2014

Alba said:
Sorry, no disrespect, but to bring the data operator in this discussion it's ridiculous.

No one seems to answer that question.

I think the allegation is that the replay operator played funny YouTube videos during Yuna's step sequence to distract the panel from correctly analyzing the turns.

capcomeback · Mar 23, 2014

karne said:
at the idea that the Replay Operator had any affect on the results.

Clearly you have no idea how a technical panel works.

Please feel free to explain how it works. I'm listening. Are you saying that "not being able to provide certain replay angles" when requested by a caller is not within this person's purview? Do we know if there were any irregularities here? I'm not saying any of this is probable or even possible, but adding another Russian official (one who apparently has expressed dissatisfaction with Russian skaters' placements in the past), is something else that can be pointed to by the Koreans.

Alba · Mar 23, 2014

drivingmissdaisy said:
I think the allegation is that the replay operator played funny YouTube videos during Yuna's step sequence to distract the panel from correctly analyzing the turns.

Now that is even more ridiculous. :laugh:

This allegation came from who? Common, I honestly can't imagine how people can really believe that.

capcomeback · Mar 23, 2014

gmyers said:
Well saying the tech panel was too russian and proving they were cheating for the benefit of sotnikova are separate. You would need real proof that Lakernik, kuznetsov and baranova were working together and fraudently. South koreas main point could just be there were just too many Russians from russia and a russian from finland and former soviets and therefore rules must be changed to avoid so many people of one ethnicity from judging an event. That the isu must implement strict limits on ethnicity in judging panels.

I don't need to do anything as I'm just pointing out things theoretically based upon my beliefs. There are things that the Koreans can point to as being suspicious.

Sam-Skwantch · Mar 23, 2014

As long as Korea doesn't sight using the Russian Federation VP's wife then this complaint is completely legit. No reason not to ask for an investigation and Ill add what took so long!! The fact remains that Korea themselves put the actual VP of the KSU

laugh

on the Vancouver Panel nullifies that argument due to hypocrisy. Even if Rhee was fair that only proves what Russia will contend and that is that it sent the most qualified judge(s) and in the past this has not been a problem but has been fair.

Whatever happened in Sochi involved a large portion of the panel and a good amount of skaters. We need the secrecy of judging eliminated. I hope that's what this is about but I'm very skeptical of the effectiveness of all this and what it will accomplish, if anything, overall. Does anyone have an accurate translation or a copy of the complaint. This feels like a lot of speculation based on an unread article.

Alba · Mar 23, 2014

capcomeback said:
Are you saying that "not being able to provide certain replay angles" when requested by a caller is not within this person's purview? .

Do you have any proof to back what you're saying, that he did not "provide certain replay angles when requested by a caller"? Other than his nationality (which is offesive and a predjuice) of course.

Do we know if there were any irregularities here?

No. So why put the finger on him? Because he is russian?

Alba · Mar 23, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
As long as Korea doesn't sight using the Russian Federation VP's wife then this complaint is completely legit. No reason not to ask for an investigation and Ill add what took so long!! The fact remains that Korea themselves put the actual VP of the KSU laughon the Vancouver Panel nullifies that argument due to hypocrisy. Even if Rhee was fair that only proves what Russia will contend and that is that it sent the most qualified judge(s) and in the past this has not been a problem but has been fair.

Excatly my point, when I said I fully support to investigate the scoring but not the judging panel draw.

Whatever happened in Sochi involved a large portion of the panel and a good amount of skaters. We need the secrecy of judging eliminated. I hope that's what this is about but I'm very skeptical of the effectiveness of all this and what it will accomplish, if anything, overall.

I don't think that will change anything, look at 6.0 system, but it will be better to eliminate the secrecy of judges.

karne · Mar 23, 2014

capcomeback said:
Please feel free to explain how it works. I'm listening. Are you saying that "not being able to provide certain replay angles" when requested by a caller is not within this person's purview? Do we know if there were any irregularities here? I'm not saying any of this is probable or even possible, but adding another Russian official (one who apparently has expressed dissatisfaction with Russian skaters' placements in the past), is something else that can be pointed to by the Koreans.

The Replay Operator has NO CONTROL over what angles s/he gets. They do not direct the actual footage. The footage just appears on their computer and they "highlight" (for want of a better word; it's not an actual cut) each element for the tech panel's review. It is possible to edit how much of the program is "highlighted" after the program is complete. The entire program remains accessible until the next skater is called and the system rolls over. If the tech panel really wanted, they could watch the whole program in super-slo-mo or even frame-by-frame.

Your comments are prejudicial and ridiculous.

skatedreamer · Mar 23, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
As long as Korea doesn't sight using the Russian Federation VP's wife then this complaint is completely legit. No reason not to ask for an investigation and Ill add what took so long!! The fact remains that Korea themselves put the actual VP of the KSU laughon the Vancouver Panel nullifies that argument due to hypocrisy. Even if Rhee was fair that only proves what Russia will contend and that is that it sent the most qualified judge(s) and in the past this has not been a problem but has been fair.

Whatever happened in Sochi involved a large portion of the panel and a good amount of skaters. We need the secrecy of judging eliminated. I hope that's what this is about but I'm very skeptical of the effectiveness of all this and what it will accomplish, if anything, overall. Does anyone have an accurate translation or a copy of the complaint. This feels like a lot of speculation based on an unread article.

S-S, you're one of the voices of reason on these threads. What makes you think that some of the skaters themselves were involved? That's one scenario I don't even want to think about. :disapp:

Re: the Korean judge in 2010, did South Korea have any other Olympic-qualified judges available at the time? If they didn't, they would have had to choose between putting Rhee on the panel and not having a judge at all. In hindsight, I agree that the latter would have been preferable, but it's hard to imagine any country (including the US) going that route. OTOH, if they had someone else to send, you're probably correct that even if everything she did was entirely above board, it would still weaken the Koreans' argument.

jaylee · Mar 23, 2014

Alba said:
Yes, but that was a well known thing in advance. Why wait for the final result in order to do that?
I would fully unnderstand and support if you do that before. Doing it now makes me think that the reasonbehind such a move it's not about improving the system, and fairness, but it'a about trying to find a justification for a result that you didn't like.

Not everyone knew the full history of the judges beforehand, or realized, for example, that Alla Shekhovtseva judged Adelina at every single one of her competitions this season. Alla Shekhovtseva was photographed embracing Adelina AFTER the competition was over, not before, and that action was specifically mentioned in the statement about the complaint. So it's not, if at all, that Shekhovtseva is married to the VP of the Russian federation--it's the evidence of her close relationship with Adelina that came out in full display.

Btw, my personal issue with what happened is not with the particular judges but the technical calls, so I am not going to debate the significance/insignificance of the above. I'm just pointing out that the KSU complaint is not simply based on a judge having a connection to a federation, which is being liberally mocked here as hypocrisy. The KSU statement specifically mentions Shekhovtseva hugging Adelina.

Also, it's NOT about the overall result. It's about how the skaters were scored that led to the result. Had Adelina won without the big increase in GOE, PCS, and technical calls she got in contrast to previous competitions, then there would have been no suspicion (or less, anyway) to fall on the judges in question.

Anyway, I do not believe the scores will be reviewed in any sincere way or the results will be overturned. I am,however, interested in this complaint if it brings forth more transparency and accountability in the scoring system.

capcomeback · Mar 23, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
As long as Korea doesn't sight using the Russian Federation VP's wife then this complaint is completely legit. No reason not to ask for an investigation and Ill add what took so long!! The fact remains that Korea themselves put the actual VP of the KSU laughon the Vancouver Panel nullifies that argument due to hypocrisy. Even if Rhee was fair that only proves what Russia will contend and that is that it sent the most qualified judge(s) and in the past this has not been a problem but has been fair.

Whatever happened in Sochi involved a large portion of the panel and a good amount of skaters. We need the secrecy of judging eliminated. I hope that's what this is about but I'm very skeptical of the effectiveness of all this and what it will accomplish, if anything, overall. Does anyone have an accurate translation or a copy of the complaint. This feels like a lot of speculation based on an unread article.

The thing is Alla is not Russia's most qualified judge for singles. She had far more experience judging Ice Dancing. There are a number of more qualified judges at singles they could have chosen (especially considering the magnitude of the event), but she was the vanity choice due to her husband (and perhaps a rubber stamp for Russian skaters, looking at one particular set of scores, so ability would not have come into it anyway if that were the case). I'm sure the Koreans might be asserting that...

YagsFan · Mar 23, 2014

pangtongfan said:
if you want it put a different way for every expert, ex champion, reporter, commentator, coach around the world who spoke out about the result for every 1 that defended it there were about 30 who disagreed. Break it down from any angle you like, but it is clear almost everyone thought the ladies judging in Sochi was corrupt and wrong. I dont state that just because it is my view. It is my view Hughes should not have won the OGM in 2002, but I know that isnt a majority view so I never refer to it as such; unlike this where it is an overwhelming majority view, and one of the biggest controversies in skating history.

I'd like to point out that you are perhaps over-stating when you posit that "it is clear that almost everyone thought the ladies judging in Sochi was corrupt and wrong.". Sure, lots of fans, especially Yuna fans, don't agree with the result, and while some do (and some don't) back up their opinions with specific skating observations, that is still quite a step from calling the judging corrupt. Many of the unhappy have indeed gone that far, but hardly "almost everyone"! BTW, I am far from a Russian troll (middle-aged lady who's lived all of her life in the USA), but I for one don't have such a big problem with the results we're talking about, much less do I discern corruption. Anyway, the other thing that struck me about your post is your example of your opinion of the 2002 Ladies result. If majority opinion is of such significance in 2014, why doesn't what you perceive as majority opinion about 2002 sway your opinion there? I would say that it's because we do all have our own opinions, regardless of what "everyone else" thinks; that's as true now as it was then.

capcomeback · Mar 23, 2014

karne said:
The Replay Operator has NO CONTROL over what angles s/he gets. They do not direct the actual footage. The footage just appears on their computer and they "highlight" (for want of a better word; it's not an actual cut) each element for the tech panel's review. It is possible to edit how much of the program is "highlighted" after the program is complete. The entire program remains accessible until the next skater is called and the system rolls over. If the tech panel really wanted, they could watch the whole program in super-slo-mo or even frame-by-frame.

Your comments are prejudicial and ridiculous.

No, just ignorant, that's why I asked. I was not rooting for any of the top skaters and have no dog in this fight and have no issue with Russian skaters so your comments are off the mark. Out of curiosity what does the Replay Operator do?

Sam-Skwantch · Mar 23, 2014

skatedreamer said:
S-S, you're one of the voices of reason on these threads. What makes you think that some of the skaters themselves were involved? That's one scenario I don't even want to think about. :disapp:

Re: the Korean judge in 2010, did South Korea have any other Olympic-qualified judges available at the time? If they didn't, they would have had to choose between putting Rhee on the panel and not having a judge at all. In hindsight, I agree that the latter would have been preferable, but it's hard to imagine any country (including the US) going that route. OTOH, if they had someone else to send, you're probably correct that even if everything she did was entirely above board, it would still weaken the Koreans' argument.

I could have worded that better because I do not think the skaters themselves are involved but meant their scores were. Sorry. I am on my iPhone and its hard to type a sentence and keep it flowing because I can't even see the first few words of the sentence. Lol.

Without doing research into the 2010 Korean judging situation I feel I can safely assume there had to be a number of judges who participated in Korean Nationals and should meet minimum requirements to sit on an Olympic Panel. If that is untrue than they could have not sent anyone and cited experience as the reason but let's be honest here...sending someone who is the head of the KSU isn't going to make much difference from someone who judges Yuna in nationals and most certainly has ties to KSU and possibly Yuna herself. I'm not even sure I care or think its that big of a deal anyway. I just think its in poor taste to accuse a country of doing something you clearly did in the last Olympics.

I'm really just afraid if their was any conspiracy it was committed well within the rules of the ISU guidelines which makes the whole thing more complicated and frustrating. Thank god the worlds are starting up!

karne · Mar 23, 2014

capcomeback said:
No, just ignorant, that's why I asked. I was not rooting for any of the top skaters and have no dog in this fight and have no issue with Russian skaters so your comments are off the mark. Out of curiosity what does the Replay Operator do?

The Replay Operator "cuts" and replays the elements of a program during the program.

So, the skater does a jump. The techical panel calls the jump, the data entry inserts the element, and the replay operator marks the video at the appropriate time. That sliver of video is now linked to the element in the computer. So when the technical panel are reviewing at the end of the program, they can ask the data entry person to click on an element, and the video will play on the screen in front of the tech panel.

The replay operator can fiddle a little to meet the panel's requirements - they can extend the video at either end (so make it start a little earlier, or finish a little later). But they can't simply erase elements or change angles, therefore, a replay operator has no bearing on the outcome of an event, so your comments WERE made out of prejudice, because you saw the Russian name and immediately assumed corruption.

Sam-Skwantch · Mar 23, 2014

capcomeback said:
The thing is Alla is not Russia's most qualified judge for singles. She had far more experience judging Ice Dancing. There are a number of more qualified judges at singles they could have chosen (especially considering the magnitude of the event), but she was the vanity choice due to her husband (and perhaps a rubber stamp for Russian skaters, looking at one particular set of scores, so ability would not have come into it anyway if that were the case). I'm sure the Koreans might be asserting that...

I can see that argument but the selection was allowed under the ISU guidelines. What needs to but won't happen is the judges scores and identities needs to be made public. Until then one could assume anything they like. To be honest its just as possible the "Russian" judges put on the highest possible score they determined to not become outliers and some mafia/gambling ring paid off some other judges to inflate the crap out of the score. Leaving the "Russian" judges not only innocent but completely out of the loop. Maybe that's a stretch but its hard to say anything with absolute certainty under the current system. :disapp: I'm American so I kind of carry innocent until proven guilty as the way to approach these situations.

winky97 · Mar 23, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
I can see that argument but the selection was allowed under the ISU guidelines. What needs to but won't happen is the judges scores and identities needs to be made public. Until then one could assume anything they like. To be honest its just as possible the Russian judges put on the highest possible score they determined to not become outliers and some mafia/gambling ring paid off some other judges to inflate the crap out of the score. I'm American so I kind of carry innocent until proven guilty as the way to approach these situations.

This may happen. It seems I remember Scott Hamilton mentioning something about a ISU meeting to discuss whether to continue with judges and their scores being anonymous.

capcomeback · Mar 23, 2014

karne said:
The Replay Operator "cuts" and replays the elements of a program during the program.

So, the skater does a jump. The techical panel calls the jump, the data entry inserts the element, and the replay operator marks the video at the appropriate time. That sliver of video is now linked to the element in the computer. So when the technical panel are reviewing at the end of the program, they can ask the data entry person to click on an element, and the video will play on the screen in front of the tech panel.

The replay operator can fiddle a little to meet the panel's requirements - they can extend the video at either end (so make it start a little earlier, or finish a little later). But they can't simply erase elements or change angles, therefore, a replay operator has no bearing on the outcome of an event, so your comments WERE made out of prejudice, because you saw the Russian name and immediately assumed corruption.

Again, you maybe right about the facts but wrong about the assertion of me being prejudiced. I was talking about what the Koreans could assert. The fact remains that Korea is asserting impropriety in the composition of the officials in the panel. The event was in Russia, where a big underdog upset the defending champion and many are questioning the scoring and result. There is no prejudice here on my part. Only belief that either some grave errors were made or people cheated their butts off to allow their skater to win. This is based upon what I saw and have learned. No prejudice or bias on my part. Can you make that same assertion?

skatedreamer · Mar 23, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
I could have worded that better because I do not think the skaters themselves are involved but meant their scores were. Sorry. I am on my iPhone and its hard to type a sentence and keep it flowing because I can't even see the first few words of the sentence. Lol.

...I'm really just afraid if their was any conspiracy it was committed well within the rules of the ISU guidelines which makes the whole thing more complicated and frustrating. Thank god the worlds are starting up!

Thanks for clarifying; feel much better now!

Absolutely agree that the ISU guidelines probably made it easier to hatch a conspiracy, if there actually was one. I'm saying IF b/c even though there's a pile of circumstantial evidence, there is still no real proof.

karne · Mar 23, 2014

capcomeback said:
Again, you maybe right about the facts but wrong about the assertion of being prejudiced. I was talking about what the Koreans could assert. The fact remains that Korea is asserting impropriety in the composition of the officials in the panel. The event was in Russia, where a big underdog upset the defending champion and many are questioning the scoring and result. There is no prejudice here on my part. Only belief that either some grave errors were made or people cheated their butts off to allow their skater to win. This is based upon what I saw and have learned. No prejudice or bias on my part. can you make that same assertion?

If the KSU's argument is going to include the replay operator they will be laughed out of the ISU building and rightly so.

The host of the competition always supplies the data entry operator and the replay operator. When the Olympics are in Korea, the data entry operator and replay operator will be Korean.

South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

drivingmissdaisy

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Alba

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Sam-Skwantch

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Alba

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jaylee

capcomeback

YagsFan

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Sam-Skwantch

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karne

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Sam-Skwantch

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winky97

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