South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

jaylee said:

Why does it matter? You seem to not have had a problem dismissing the complaint already without having read it.

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It matters because without reading the text of the complaint we don't know the actual allegations, much less the reasons for making them. Right now, we're all just speculating.

It will also be interesting to see how the allegations are worded because there are any number of ways to say the same thing. The charges matter, but the words chosen to state them are just as important. If you doubt that, somewhere in these threads is an extended discussion of not only the words, but also the punctuation in a rule re: step sequences and how levels/GOEs are judged. IIRC, the argument had to do w/ the placement of a comma. (Someone please correct if I've got the wrong rule, etc. I read/write contracts for a living, so the thing that stuck in my fevered brain was the comma! )

Reading the complaint matters. A lot.

Sam-Skwantch said:

By dismissing you must mean supporting it? I said all along its a good thing and I'm in favor of it. Went so far as to say what took so long. I'm just not willing to turn a blind eye to fairness to make a point. Is there something wrong with that? And wanting to read the article before making a final assessment goes hand in hand to making an informed descision to me.

Where do you get the idea I've dismissed it?

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My mistake. When you mocked the KSU complaint involving Alla Shekhovtseva without knowing its details, I thought that was being dismissive of the complaint without having read it. But you were only dismissing that aspect of the complaint while supporting the complaint overall. Sorry for missing that distinction. It's a bit frustrating to see all the mockery and accusations of hypocrisy fly when no one has read the complaint.

I pointed out to another poster that the KSU statement specifically mentions the evidence of Alla Shekhovtseva hugging Adelina after the competition, so it's not relying simply on Alla's connection to the Russian federation. Even if that evidence doesn't mean anything to you (and it doesn't have to), that makes the situation not identical to a KSU official judging the ladies event in Vancouver, which you and others have kept bringing up.

skatedreamer said:

It matters because without reading the text of the complaint we don't know the actual allegations, much less the reasons for making them. Right now, we're all just speculating.

It will also be interesting to see how the allegations are worded because there are any number of ways to say the same thing. The charges matter, but the words chosen to state them are just as important. If you doubt that, somewhere in these threads is an extended discussion of not only the words, but also the punctuation in a rule re: step sequences and how levels/GOEs are judged. IIRC, the argument had to do w/ the placement of a comma. (Someone please correct if I've got the wrong rule, etc. I read/write contracts for a living, so the thing that stuck in my fevered brain was the comma! )

Reading the complaint matters. A lot.

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I was being sarcastic. Of course reading the complaint matters. I have little hope that it's as strong an argument as could've been made by someone with more knowledge into the technical issues behind the judging, though.

I apologize if I gave the wrong impression here. I have no objection to the complaint itself and did not intentionally mock it or its intent.

I posted this earlier and maintain the same position. A push for reform. I never intentionally mocked the complaint but admit my childish laughter at irony in that one particular aspect. Sorry Do you have a copy of KSU statement? I can't find that either. Just the OP's link.

2) I do not think there was any anomaly in the scores in Vancouver. Since I was quoted as part of the "zing" I feel inclined to say. Whether or not there was cheating in 2010 does not remove or add to the comedical value of Korea complaining about a wife of a VP to judge knowing full well that four years earlier they themselves used an actual VP to judge the Olympics. There is no denying the conflict of interest which is hilarious.

I have no issues with Korea filling a complaint and actually wondered what took so long. Hopefully something good can come out of this in terms of reforms. Not likely but one can hope. I also think Yuna is the embodiment of class and have much respect for her and disagree she has done anything wrong as some have suggested.

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jaylee said:

I was being sarcastic. Of course reading the complaint matters. I have little hope that it's as strong an argument as could've been made by someone with more knowledge into the technical issues behind the judging, though.

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Thanks for clarifying. ITA that it's frustrating to see accusations being made (especially the more hyperbolic ones) w/o knowledge of the complaint. Until we get a chance to read it, we're all just whistling in the dark.

jaylee said:

Believe what you want to believe. I am not particularly invested in this part of the debate. I haven't read the full complaint, I don't know what the KSU is thinking. I speculate, and so are others.

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I'm sorry but it's not that I belive in what I want. The idea that SK Fed officials, doesn't know who that judge is (and all the other judges for that matter) to put it simply it's not true. This goes for small Fed as well, let alone a Fed that has the No.1 contender for gold.
You gave a suggestion and I gave an answer. That's it.

You and others haven't read the complaint either, but keep throwing around accusations of hypocrisy. So I pointed out that the KSU complaint doesn't solely rest on the judge selected having a connection to the Russian federation.

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Your previous post was the following:"Their complaint is about the composition of the panel and whether the scoring was fair". To which I replied: "I get the investigation on the scoring. I don't get the one about the panel though"
You kept talking about "a known cheater on the panel" (note a known cheater), and suggesting that it's a part of their complaint.
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sh...m%92s-Olympic-Silver-quot&p=891724#post891724

I'm simply responding to that. I'm not accusing them, it's not in my style to accuse anyone without evidence.
However, from the link you provided, there is a quote of Korea Olympic Committee spokesman: “Since figure skating is not an event where we can overturn a result, we decided to complain to the ISU for having assigned inappropriate people to the judging panel”.

If that is true, then yes it is hypocrisy. Whether you like it or not.

I don't know what the KSU was thinking after the panel announced, but they had what, half an hour to an hour to protest after the judging panel had been announced? I can very well believe that its officials on hand didn't know immediately about Yuri Balkov. The KSU couldn't have a judge at the 2006 Olympics because no Korean skater qualified. Yuna Kim was the first Korean skater to win a JGP, GP, or ISU championship medal. That says a lot about their figure skating history when they didn't consistently have a judge at major events and didn't have a skater who could win on the international level until 2005--7 years after Nagano, when the Yuri Balkov scandal occurred. Heck, I'd assume most of the KSU officials know more about speed skating rather than figure skating, because that's their priority.

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The fact that they didn't have judges in 2006 it's completly irrelevant here. They time available to complaint against a judge with his past it's enough

And even if they did know about Yuri Balkov, how would the KSU even know if they could protest when they didn't know if such an appointment had any significance on their skater? Maybe they foolishly had faith that the judges would judge fairly?

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They don't know that now either, not for a fact anyway. So if I follow this logic (I'm not saying this is the case because I know you're speculating) this is about the result they don't like then. It's not about fairness, integrity of the sport etc., but "let's wait and see. If we win everything it's fine".

Not just the embrace, though, as in the fact about Shekhovtseva judging Adelina at every one of her competitions.

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So why bring up the embrace, like it's a scandal or something incredible, everywhere? I'm not saying you in particular, but many users here and elsewhere, and above all the media.

What about the skaters without close relationship with judges? Do they get screwed, and oh well, that's life? That's what I'd like to know.

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Apparently yes. Do I like it? NO! Is it something that concerns Sotnikova, or Russia, only? The answer is still NO!

Anyway, I said I didn't want to debate the above because who the judges are isn't of the most interest to me. I don't have a problem with the KSU making a complaint, though. I'd like to know if the two judges they singled out match up to the highest scores on Adelina's protocols--and the lowest on Yuna's. Of course, nothing will happen..

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I do care about the judges, especially those who are allowed to judge after been caught cheating. Although I don't know in details what really happened between Yuri Balkov and the Canadian judge. I can't find anything on the internet.
Also, I do not have a problem with the KSU making a complaint, as I already mentioned more than once.

Although we do not have the exact text, I think we have seen enough press releases, news stories, and interviews to get the jist. The complaint centers around the two two named judges and "suspicions of bias" by others. I thi k think this summary by Phil Hersh is accurate.

Most telling, to me, is this part.

Korean officials did not lodge an immediate protest over the composition of the judging panel. Such a protest had to be filed within an hour of the announcement of the panel. Friday's statement said the Koreans had been reviewing possible courses of action since then.

In the statement, an unidentified Korean official said, "We had to be extremely careful with our action because filing a complaint may adversely affect our relationships with the ISU and international figure skating judges, which could put our athletes at a disadvantage at future competitions.

"However, after deliberating over what would be the best course of action for our people, we decided to appeal with the ISU. We are aware of the problems that this move can cause.''

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http://www.chicagotribune.com/sport...udging-in-kim-defeat-20140321,0,3598770.story

Sam-Skwantch said:

The fact remains that Korea themselves put the actual VP of the KSU laughon the Vancouver Panel nullifies that argument due to hypocrisy.

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skatedreamer said:

Re: the Korean judge in 2010, did South Korea have any other Olympic-qualified judges available at the time? If they didn't, they would have had to choose between putting Rhee on the panel and not having a judge at all. In hindsight, I agree that the latter would have been preferable, but it's hard to imagine any country (including the US) going that route. OTOH, if they had someone else to send, you're probably correct that even if everything she did was entirely above board, it would still weaken the Koreans' argument.

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bebevia said:

Actually, that Rhee woman is reputed to be anti-Yuna. She's known for speaking against her and switching back and forth when media attention turns around. Even with the Sochi incident, she quickly spoke for Sotnikova, and when technical speculations were pointed out one by one, she kinda retracted and kinda turned around.

For allegations on KSU money and possible 2018 home advantage... if only they bothered to benefit their athletes, that would be helpful. KSU is known for suppressing superstar emergence that can get out of their control. An influential who can speak against the current system they are feeding off of is a disturbance, as proven by several occasions where officials were caught selling out athletes for placements and for betting. Speculations were made that some have been trying and are trying to build spots in the international panels, for personal vanity. While Yuna has been a good campaign face for KSU, they've been known to be passively hostile against her, as her presence shines spotlights on their incompetence.

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There. I must clarify that, instead of saying Rhee is anti-Yuna, she's just no fan of her. She doesn't like Yuna's style and always chooses to speak against her whenever a controversy erupts. More like how other-skaters'-fans do, but no one specific. Also, the KSU-ISU relationship, KSU's influence being near non-existent, is such that KSU seeks affection of other ISU members if an interest occurs at all. Being an international judge is an honourary, and for the superficial, a vanity title. I've seen many incompetent government personnels who'd do anything (that are not personally sacrificial) to earn a vanity title and make it an excuse to travel overseas, see the exclusives, tell people how special they are. You know that even Korean government gave up on KSU's ethics that concern their athletes, right?

Sam-Skwantch said:

I apologize if I gave the wrong impression here. I have no objection to the complaint itself and did not intentionally mock it or its intent.

I posted this earlier and maintain the same position. A push for reform. I never intentionally mocked the complaint but admit my childish laughter at irony in that one particular aspect. Sorry Do you have a copy of KSU statement? I can't find that either. Just the OP's link.

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Cool, thanks, I understand you now.

Here's a WSJ article, which includes a quote of the KSU statement: http://blogs.wsj.com/korearealtime/...omplaint-over-olympic-figure-skating-judging/

Alba said:

I'm sorry but it's not that I belive in what I want. The idea that SK Fed officials, doesn't know who that judge is (and all the other judges for that matter) to put it simply it's not true. This goes for small Fed as well, let alone a Fed that has the No.1 contender for gold.

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I don't know what the KSU officials knew/realized when the judging panel was announced, and neither do you. You have no evidence for the above. Do you even know if the current KSU officials were active back in 1998? I don't know who the current KSU officials are or how well-versed they are in figure skating history and politics (recall that KSU represents both speed skating and figure skating). So how do you know? I am not making assumptions about what they know, but you are. Anyway, I feel like we're going around in circles. We agree that the KSU can make a complaint. The end.

skatedreamer said:

Re: copy of the actual complaint, I've done several searches using different terms & combinations of terms. Thus far, coming up empty.

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I believe the complaint hasn't been filed yet. The 60-day period hasn't been expired. It seems to me they are still finalizing the details.

That makes sense. Didnt they also say the are seeking Yuna's permission too.

Sam-Skwantch said:

That makes sense. Didnt they also say the are seeking Yuna's permission too.

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That line was not a part of the official press release by KSU. It could be speculation by reporters. Also I am not sure if KSU really needs her permission or consent on this matter.

jaylee said:

I don't know what the KSU officials knew/realized when the judging panel was announced, and neither do you. You have no evidence for the above.

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It's called common sense, but we can disagree on that.
I respect people that support so much the idea of having evidence, before throwing accusation and doubts.
Should be applied for judges too. Actually is a requirement before accusing them, or anyone, for cheating&corruption.

capcomeback said:

First of all, the TV show was engaging in parody and social commentary. These may be concepts that you don't understand because they may not exist where you're from.

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You are right about that. While parody and social commentary exists in a lot of countries, the concept differs, humour and sarcasm are cultural features. In Korea they have no problem with being disrepectful to others. It actually explains the behavior of some Yuna fans in cyber space. Korean TV shows are often full of nationalism. Japan traditionally get the most hate because of history. Now Adelina, Russia..

Does everybody know what TV shows we are talking about? Does anybody need the links?

capcomeback said:

As far as the Korean judge being a member of the local federation, I agree that it is possible that a conflict of interest existed in Vancouver, but that is far different than the potential for cheating. Does this mean Yuna skate well enough for gold in 2010? Yes. Did Adelina in 2014? No.

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I know. I typed that. When Yuna wins, the cheating never happens, the existed conflict of interest doesn't matter. When she doesn't win, the cheating is apriori a case, the conflict of interest becomes a case. Sorry, I am just really having fun with all that.
It's not how it works. The conflict of interest in judging panel must be reported before the trial. The lawyers ask to dismiss the judge who has in their opinion the conflict of interets before the trial, not after, when they don't like the decision he made. You are saying Yuna fans have no problem with conflict of interest in judging pannel only when judges decide in Yuna favor. Then you shouldn't be surprised that that Yuna fans come out as sore losers for others.

Rubirosa said:

You are right about that. While parody and social commentary exists in a lot of countries, the concept differs, humour and sarcasm are cultural features. In Korea they have no problem with being disrepectful to others. It actually explains the behavior of some Yuna fans in cyber space. Korean TV shows are often full of nationalism. Japan traditionally get the most hate because of history. Now Adelina, Russia..

Does everybody know what TV shows we are talking about? Does anybody need the links?

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I have never lived in Korea so I am not sure that they are disrespectful towards others. Only remember a colleague that is Korean and he is quite polite. But once in a while he said something like: "We has lots of enemies, China, Japan, South Korea... We are surrounded by enemies." Somethings like that. I don't think they are disrespectful, but given the history, I can get it why they express their thoughts that ways. But well, all the Korean people I have ever met are nice and respectful. They somewhat don't favor Chinese and Japanese people. Not all of them, though.

seabm7 said:

That line was not a part of the official press release by KSU. It could be speculation by reporters. Also I am not sure if KSU really needs her permission or consent on this matter.

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Maybe out of respect for her...deservedly so IMO. Reporters these days need to learn to keep their opinions out of the stories they present. Too many opinion pieces pass as legitimate news stories these days. If I see one more link to the Wire I'm going to eat my keyboard! Whew...end rant.

I wouldn't be surprised if they sought her approval though. Obviously out of respect but seriously where would they be in regards to the figure skating world without Yuna and I'd go as far to give her some credit in securing the Olympics to some degree for Koreans.

pangtongfan said:

Speak english please.

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You still don't know what crime is? It's something punishable by law, by Penal code, you can pay fine or go to jail. In English well enough?
Cyberbullying and death threats are crimes that Yuna fans are committing against Adelina. Yuna chose to stay away from it. She doesn't read Internet.
On other thread the English of Yuna fans with filipino background got mocked, people shouted that that was insult. Here you see the same thing against not a Yuna fan, and everybody's happy, because when Yuna fans insults others, it's not insult but off-topic remark. Yuna Kingdom of hypocricy.

pangtongfan said:

For every rare poster (I can basically count them on one hand and they all come across as trolls, and only 2 or 3 of them even remain unbanned, lol) who argues for it there are atleast 30 who have argued the overall womens competition was a farce and fiasco

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There is the thing called 'happiness'. Happy people don't need to whine in the internet, that is what losers do. They are scared of opposition and cowardly ask to ban it . At least you admitted it loudly, I give you credit for that.

Melon said:

Sot bots need to watch Adelina's TEB program before commenting on any judging issue related threads.

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Thanks to Yuna fans i have seen it side by side with her sochi programs and everyone can see how astonishingly better sotnikova was in sochi! With 3/3 and 3 jump combo and spins better and performance better and its so amazing to see sonikova astounding improvement in every way!

gmyers said:

If its only about rule changes then rule changes could be:
1. No panel can have 2 people of the same national origin

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I'm not sure I understand this one. What do you mean the same national origin?

2. No panel can have 2 ova's or ovs or Iks or ikas or ev or eva's regardless if they share ethnicity
3. No panel can have 2 or more judges from countries that used to be part of the same country
4. No panel can have 2 or more judges - you have to be specific here- from any country to be formerly of the soviet bloc in Eastern Europe if Russia is also on the panel and maybe even if it isn't so maybe no Poland or Slovakia or you can have Poland and Slovakia as long as there's no Russia

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You've got to be kidding, right?!

Alba said:

I'm not sure I understand this one. What do you mean the same national origin?



You've got to be kidding, right?!

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National origin - I mean ethnicity.

If people are going to be saying a Bulgarian or ukrainian with the last name that ends with "ov" or "ova" or a Slovak or Czech whose names ends with ov or ova are suspects in being colluding and conspiring with Russians why not ban ovs or Ovas from taking up more than one judging place on a panel. If people are going to complain all the time about ovs or Ovas or ins and Ina's or whatever isu can ban them

If people are going to suspect Slovakia judges are not legitimate when there a Russian judge too why not ban Slovakia and Russia or russia and Estonia?

What do people want? Just to complain? Or try to pass rules?