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Thread: South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

  1. #271
    Landing 3As in my dreams! skatedreamer's Avatar
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    Re: copy of the actual complaint, I've done several searches using different terms & combinations of terms. Thus far, coming up empty.

  2. #272
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    I hope there is something about sheepskin jumps in the complaint. I'm not sure Adelina had enough of those.

  3. #273
    Yuna's Ice Rink cooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatedreamer View Post
    S-S, you're one of the voices of reason on these threads. What makes you think that some of the skaters themselves were involved? That's one scenario I don't even want to think about.

    Re: the Korean judge in 2010, did South Korea have any other Olympic-qualified judges available at the time? If they didn't, they would have had to choose between putting Rhee on the panel and not having a judge at all. In hindsight, I agree that the latter would have been preferable, but it's hard to imagine any country (including the US) going that route. OTOH, if they had someone else to send, you're probably correct that even if everything she did was entirely above board, it would still weaken the Koreans' argument.
    according to this she was the only eligible judge from korea..

    http://static.isu.org/media/104703/1...ys-2009-10.pdf

    and it's funny how they compared alla from rhee.. and trying to paint like it is actually the same..

  4. #274
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cooper View Post
    according to this she was the only eligible judge from korea..

    http://static.isu.org/media/104703/1...ys-2009-10.pdf

    and it's funny how they compared alla from rhee.. and trying to paint like it is actually the same..
    In many ways it is the same. They both have a clear conflict of interest. What's fair for one must be fair for the other. Personally like I stated earlier I have a hard time assigning different levels of conflict of interest for anyone working from within any federation. Why is a VP going to be anymore corrupt than say a former coach or family member of a fed member for that matter. It's very difficult to do so without resorting to speculation and potentially bordering your argument on bigotry. It is just as possible and fair to claim the Russian judge knew nothing about the inflation and in fact had a high but reasonable score. No one can prove otherwise can they.

  5. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    []
    Why does it matter? You seem to not have had a problem dismissing the complaint already without having read it.

  6. #276
    Yuna's Ice Rink cooper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    In many ways it is the same. They both have a clear conflict of interest. What's fair for one must be fair for the other. Personally like I stated earlier I have a hard time assigning different levels of conflict of interest for anyone working from within any federation. Why is a VP going to be anymore corrupt than say a former coach or family member of a fed member for that matter. It's very difficult to do so without resorting to speculation and potentially bordering your argument on bigotry. It is just as possible and fair to claim the Russian judge knew nothing about the inflation and in fact had a high but reasonable score. No one can prove otherwise can they.
    i know the definition of conflict of interest... but you also have to look at the circumstances.. the russian fed had many judges they can choose from while korea does not have the luxury.. alla substituted one of the judges just in time for the long program (along w/ balkov) after the sp which the 3 top skaters were virtually tied (aside from she was a judge in every competition of adelina this season)..

    further.. we haven't seen the whole complaint yet... aside from the statements..

  7. #277
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Every ISU judge has ties to his or her National Federation. There is no other way to become an ISU judge.

    The ISU does, however, have some rules about conflicts of interest. Here is a case where an ISU referee allowed her sister to serve as a judge in a novice event that she was refereeing. (There probably wasn't anyone else available.)

    http://static.isu.org/media/105567/1...sto-jensen.pdf
    Last edited by Mathman; 03-23-2014 at 07:36 PM.

  8. #278
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    Why does it matter? You seem to not have had a problem dismissing the complaint already without having read it.
    By dismissing you must mean supporting it? I said all along its a good thing and I'm in favor of it. Went so far as to say what took so long. I'm just not willing to turn a blind eye to fairness to make a point. Is there something wrong with that? And wanting to read the article before making a final assessment goes hand in hand to making an informed descision to me.

    Where do you get the idea I've dismissed it?

  9. #279
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post

    Anyway, I do not believe the scores will be reviewed in any sincere way or the results will be overturned. I am,however, interested in this complaint if it brings forth more transparency and accountability in the scoring system.

    It will. Judges will no longer be anonymous and it will be known as The Sotnikova Rule. Judges suspected of cheating will be quicky and severely Sotnikova'ed.

  10. #280
    Yulia forver! I'm on team dumped Ice Dance. Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatedreamer View Post
    Re: the Korean judge in 2010, did South Korea have any other Olympic-qualified judges available at the time? If they didn't, they would have had to choose between putting Rhee on the panel and not having a judge at all. In hindsight, I agree that the latter would have been preferable, but it's hard to imagine any country (including the US) going that route. OTOH, if they had someone else to send, you're probably correct that even if everything she did was entirely above board, it would still weaken the Koreans' argument.
    Let's say that South Korea didn't have another Olympic-qualified judges available at the time.
    What about Jodi Abbott of Canada chosen to judge Ice Dancing in Vancouver 2010 while she was the vice president of the board of directors of the Canadian figure skating association?
    Karen Butcher (judge Pairs in Sochi) is a Director of the Canadian figure skating association. We all know of course about rumours concerning Shawn Rettstatt, the USA judge in both Ice Dance events and I'm not referring to l'Equipe article which I don't belive by the way.

    Anyway, I'm curious to know is the complain from South Korea going to include the judging panel from the Short Program as well?


    p.s. By the way Samuel Auxier is also a Deloitte & Touche LLP principal in the Capital Markets Technology practice based in Chicago, and he has been with the organization for over 14 years. Deloitte has been a sponsor of the USOC since 2009, and the sponsorship was recently extended through 2020.

  11. #281
    Landing 3As in my dreams! skatedreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    Why does it matter? You seem to not have had a problem dismissing the complaint already without having read it.
    It matters because without reading the text of the complaint we don't know the actual allegations, much less the reasons for making them. Right now, we're all just speculating.

    It will also be interesting to see how the allegations are worded because there are any number of ways to say the same thing. The charges matter, but the words chosen to state them are just as important. If you doubt that, somewhere in these threads is an extended discussion of not only the words, but also the punctuation in a rule re: step sequences and how levels/GOEs are judged. IIRC, the argument had to do w/ the placement of a comma. (Someone please correct if I've got the wrong rule, etc. I read/write contracts for a living, so the thing that stuck in my fevered brain was the comma! )

    Reading the complaint matters. A lot.

  12. #282
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    By dismissing you must mean supporting it? I said all along its a good thing and I'm in favor of it. Went so far as to say what took so long. I'm just not willing to turn a blind eye to fairness to make a point. Is there something wrong with that? And wanting to read the article before making a final assessment goes hand in hand to making an informed descision to me.

    Where do you get the idea I've dismissed it?
    My mistake. When you mocked the KSU complaint involving Alla Shekhovtseva without knowing its details, I thought that was being dismissive of the complaint without having read it. But you were only dismissing that aspect of the complaint while supporting the complaint overall. Sorry for missing that distinction. It's a bit frustrating to see all the mockery and accusations of hypocrisy fly when no one has read the complaint.

    I pointed out to another poster that the KSU statement specifically mentions the evidence of Alla Shekhovtseva hugging Adelina after the competition, so it's not relying simply on Alla's connection to the Russian federation. Even if that evidence doesn't mean anything to you (and it doesn't have to), that makes the situation not identical to a KSU official judging the ladies event in Vancouver, which you and others have kept bringing up.

    Quote Originally Posted by skatedreamer View Post

    It matters because without reading the text of the complaint we don't know the actual allegations, much less the reasons for making them. Right now, we're all just speculating.

    It will also be interesting to see how the allegations are worded because there are any number of ways to say the same thing. The charges matter, but the words chosen to state them are just as important. If you doubt that, somewhere in these threads is an extended discussion of not only the words, but also the punctuation in a rule re: step sequences and how levels/GOEs are judged. IIRC, the argument had to do w/ the placement of a comma. (Someone please correct if I've got the wrong rule, etc. I read/write contracts for a living, so the thing that stuck in my fevered brain was the comma! )

    Reading the complaint matters. A lot.
    I was being sarcastic. Of course reading the complaint matters. I have little hope that it's as strong an argument as could've been made by someone with more knowledge into the technical issues behind the judging, though.

  13. #283
    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    I apologize if I gave the wrong impression here. I have no objection to the complaint itself and did not intentionally mock it or its intent.

    I posted this earlier and maintain the same position. A push for reform. I never intentionally mocked the complaint but admit my childish laughter at irony in that one particular aspect. Sorry Do you have a copy of KSU statement? I can't find that either. Just the OP's link.

    2) I do not think there was any anomaly in the scores in Vancouver. Since I was quoted as part of the "zing" I feel inclined to say. Whether or not there was cheating in 2010 does not remove or add to the comedical value of Korea complaining about a wife of a VP to judge knowing full well that four years earlier they themselves used an actual VP to judge the Olympics. There is no denying the conflict of interest which is hilarious.

    I have no issues with Korea filling a complaint and actually wondered what took so long. Hopefully something good can come out of this in terms of reforms. Not likely but one can hope. I also think Yuna is the embodiment of class and have much respect for her and disagree she has done anything wrong as some have suggested.

  14. #284
    Landing 3As in my dreams! skatedreamer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    I was being sarcastic. Of course reading the complaint matters. I have little hope that it's as strong an argument as could've been made by someone with more knowledge into the technical issues behind the judging, though.
    Thanks for clarifying. ITA that it's frustrating to see accusations being made (especially the more hyperbolic ones) w/o knowledge of the complaint. Until we get a chance to read it, we're all just whistling in the dark.

  15. #285
    Yulia forver! I'm on team dumped Ice Dance. Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    Believe what you want to believe. I am not particularly invested in this part of the debate. I haven't read the full complaint, I don't know what the KSU is thinking. I speculate, and so are others.
    I'm sorry but it's not that I belive in what I want. The idea that SK Fed officials, doesn't know who that judge is (and all the other judges for that matter) to put it simply it's not true. This goes for small Fed as well, let alone a Fed that has the No.1 contender for gold.
    You gave a suggestion and I gave an answer. That's it.

    You and others haven't read the complaint either, but keep throwing around accusations of hypocrisy. So I pointed out that the KSU complaint doesn't solely rest on the judge selected having a connection to the Russian federation.
    Your previous post was the following:"Their complaint is about the composition of the panel and whether the scoring was fair". To which I replied: "I get the investigation on the scoring. I don't get the one about the panel though"
    You kept talking about "a known cheater on the panel" (note a known cheater), and suggesting that it's a part of their complaint.
    http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...724#post891724

    I'm simply responding to that. I'm not accusing them, it's not in my style to accuse anyone without evidence.
    However, from the link you provided, there is a quote of Korea Olympic Committee spokesman: “Since figure skating is not an event where we can overturn a result, we decided to complain to the ISU for having assigned inappropriate people to the judging panel”.

    If that is true, then yes it is hypocrisy. Whether you like it or not.

    I don't know what the KSU was thinking after the panel announced, but they had what, half an hour to an hour to protest after the judging panel had been announced? I can very well believe that its officials on hand didn't know immediately about Yuri Balkov. The KSU couldn't have a judge at the 2006 Olympics because no Korean skater qualified. Yuna Kim was the first Korean skater to win a JGP, GP, or ISU championship medal. That says a lot about their figure skating history when they didn't consistently have a judge at major events and didn't have a skater who could win on the international level until 2005--7 years after Nagano, when the Yuri Balkov scandal occurred. Heck, I'd assume most of the KSU officials know more about speed skating rather than figure skating, because that's their priority.
    The fact that they didn't have judges in 2006 it's completly irrelevant here. They time available to complaint against a judge with his past it's enough

    And even if they did know about Yuri Balkov, how would the KSU even know if they could protest when they didn't know if such an appointment had any significance on their skater? Maybe they foolishly had faith that the judges would judge fairly?
    They don't know that now either, not for a fact anyway. So if I follow this logic (I'm not saying this is the case because I know you're speculating) this is about the result they don't like then. It's not about fairness, integrity of the sport etc., but "let's wait and see. If we win everything it's fine".

    Not just the embrace, though, as in the fact about Shekhovtseva judging Adelina at every one of her competitions.
    So why bring up the embrace, like it's a scandal or something incredible, everywhere? I'm not saying you in particular, but many users here and elsewhere, and above all the media.

    What about the skaters without close relationship with judges? Do they get screwed, and oh well, that's life? That's what I'd like to know.
    Apparently yes. Do I like it? NO! Is it something that concerns Sotnikova, or Russia, only? The answer is still NO!

    Anyway, I said I didn't want to debate the above because who the judges are isn't of the most interest to me. I don't have a problem with the KSU making a complaint, though. I'd like to know if the two judges they singled out match up to the highest scores on Adelina's protocols--and the lowest on Yuna's. Of course, nothing will happen..
    I do care about the judges, especially those who are allowed to judge after been caught cheating. Although I don't know in details what really happened between Yuri Balkov and the Canadian judge. I can't find anything on the internet.
    Also, I do not have a problem with the KSU making a complaint, as I already mentioned more than once.

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