South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

capcomeback · Mar 27, 2014

Melon said:
Well if Russia's Federation get caught purposely fixing the scores, then that would be enough reason to strip a medal from Adelina. Maybe even the team event.

For starters that's a "big if". Even if this were the case, it would be setting a dangerous precedent and create a logistical nightmare. If Adelina's medal would be stripped, so would Yuna's and Carolina's (and the results of every other skater would be vacated). In other words, you can't pick and choose whose medals you strip or which results you invalidate.

MiRé · Mar 27, 2014

capcomeback said:
For starters that's a "big if". Even if this were the case, it would be setting a dangerous precedent and create a logistical nightmare. If Adelina's medal would be stripped, so would Yuna's and Carolina's (and the results of every other skater would be vacated). In other words, you can't pick and choose whose medals you strip or which results you invalidate.

Uhm you asked for a justification so I gave you an example of how a medal would be stripped.

capcomeback · Mar 27, 2014

Melon said:
Uhm you asked for a justification so I gave you an example of how a medal would be stripped.

But that would be a justification to vacate the whole event, not strip an individual medal (unless you prove Adelina was in on it).

MiRé · Mar 27, 2014

capcomeback said:
But that would be a justification to vacate the whole event, not strip an individual medal (unless you prove Adelina was in on it).

KSU complaint is regarding the judging inconsistency/bias. One of their complaints may include Adelina, but in general as a whole, they are complaining about the judging itself so if Russia somehow is found guilty of such doing, Russia's medals earned in the figure skating events would be stripped (or thats what I foresee if it were to happen)

Meoima · Mar 27, 2014

Melon said:
KSU complaint is regarding the judging inconsistency/bias. One of their complaints may include Adelina, but in general as a whole, they are complaining about the judging itself so if Russia somehow is found guilty of such doing, Russia's medals earned in the figure skating events would be stripped (or thats what I foresee if it were to happen)

The thing is, it's not the athletes' faults if they were gifted the medals. Judges decided that they were worthy of the score, no matter if there were some strings behind, athletes would never be the one to blame. If they ask for stripping the medals from all athletes, they have to prove that the athletes were the one who cheated. In this case, if there were some cheating, it's the judges, not the athletes. They would have to ban the judging panel, not blaming the athletes because all the did was skating, not giving themselves scores.

capcomeback · Mar 27, 2014

Melon said:
KSU complaint is regarding the judging inconsistency/bias. One of their complaints may include Adelina, but in general as a whole, they are complaining about the judging itself so if Russia somehow is found guilty of such doing, Russia's medals earned in the figure skating events would be stripped (or thats what I foresee if it were to happen)

The problem here is that stripping a medal is historically a punitive action for an athlete cheating. That in itself is fine, but the problem in this case it is not because the athlete took performance enhancing drugs. The problem here is that there are allegations that the officiating was corrupt. This calls into doubt the entire competition and affects the placements and/or scores of virtually every skater. So unless you don't want to vacate the whole event and can't prove Adelina's involvement, how can you pick and choose who you punish? How is it fair to punish a skater who has the misfortune to have the same nationality as the federation that you punish? If it is shown that Adelina had prior knowledge or learned after the fact without reporting it, then that's another matter (then stripping her medal would be a punitive measure for being part of a conspiracy).

Otherwise just invalidate the whole thing or do nothing about the results. The more important thing is to find out what happen, punish the wrongdoers (if any can be found) and fix the problem going forward.

Nadya · Mar 27, 2014

os168 said:
No. Adelina was not better that night.

Adelina did have a great skate but under any other panel in the world that bother to have some level of impartiality like making right technical calls, she will never get anywhere to the top 3 with the likes of Kim, Kostner, Asada who all had their career best free skates.

Yuna lost to no one but the judging that night. In fact the whole sport has.

That was not Kim's career's best skate. And it wasn't Mao's, not when you look at the totality of the competition.

capcomeback · Mar 27, 2014

Nadya said:
That was not Kim's career's best skate. And it wasn't Mao's, not when you look at the totality of the competition.

No. but Adelina's was not the second best ever (as she was scored). While Yuna's long was merely excellent, her short was stunning.

chalk5 · Mar 27, 2014

Easy. Historically, two medals will be awarded or medals are returned to its rightful owner (Boxing Case in Korea). Things will turn itself, but the show must go on. We all understand that. But my biggest point is that Adelina did not deserve those points meaning that if they were to look again like they did in previous cases with boxing, fencing, speed skating etc., we will learn that Yuna should have earned more points than Adelina. So by saying that Adelina deserved it because it was her time and her home turf and gave her best does not mean a thing. It is literally saying if two people were to run a race and the person who came in later should win because it was a glorious Olympic performance does not make any sense. If all of you wants to fuss to see determine who is the rightful owner, with all the right calculations and analysis, Yuna will come higher in points than Adelina as it has been explained previously. And to answer the judging panel, I am just so embarrassed for the Russian officials because they look like they simply don't care. I know that this event was the result of corrupt politics and government more than anything else. And to be honest, if this does not go the way it should be, Russia can kiss their figure skaters good bye from Gold Medals let alone the podium itself. I am not hating on the athletes, but it is how the federation controls these athletes and get away with it. Simply, they need to be taught a huge and important lesson right before their eyes.

Nadya · Mar 27, 2014

capcomeback said:
No. but Adelina's was not the second best ever (as she was scored). While Yuna's long was merely excellent, her short was stunning.

I think here again we are running into the eternal argument of "what is good skating." What you or I consider "best" may or may not tick off the boxes, and I say this without any reference to this competition. The judges aren't evaluating some idea of "good skating." They have a list of criteria and they are ticking them off, even with immaculate judging. It is completely possible that a skater who isn't a "full package" may outscore a complete one simply using the rules to her or his advantage.

capcomeback · Mar 27, 2014

Nadya said:
I think here again we are running into the eternal argument of "what is good skating." What you or I consider "best" may or may not tick off the boxes, and I say this without any reference to this competition. The judges aren't evaluating some idea of "good skating." They have a list of criteria and they are ticking them off, even with immaculate judging. It is completely possible that a skater who isn't a "full package" may outscore a complete one simply using the rules to her or his advantage.

But Adelina did not tick off enough boxes to win. The mistakes on the tech panel greatly contributed to her win. Also, she scored the highest GOE of any skater in the history of the IJS. Finally, PCS seems to have been merely a reflection of (flawed) TES scoring when it comes to Adelina. This is blatantly unfair to skaters who have put the time into their skating rather than simply their technical skills. These marks and the inflated GOEs are simply unconscionable (and why we have a not "full package" skater standing at the top of the Olympic podium).

Nadya · Mar 27, 2014

capcomeback said:
But Adelina did not tick off enough boxes to win. The mistakes on the tech panel greatly contributed to her win. Also, she scored the highest GOE of any skater in the history of the IJS. Finally, PCS seems to have been merely a reflection of (flawed) TES scoring when it comes to Adelina. This is blatantly unfair to skaters who have put the time into their skating rather than simply their technical skills. These marks and the inflated GOEs are simply unconscionable (and why we have a not "full package" skater standing at the top of the Olympic podium).

Let me ask you a philosophical question. Do you think it is possible that a skater who you do not see as "complete" -mind you, not Adelina, a generic skater - can tick enough boxes in the judging manual to score above what you consider a "complete skater"? Is it possible that a skater who is very strong in some areas but not all of them can outjump, outspin, out-transition a skater who does everything well but not exceptionally brilliantly in all the ways? Not according to your idea of "good skating", but according to the rules as they are?

capcomeback · Mar 27, 2014

Nadya said:
Let me ask you a philosophical question. Do you think it is possible that a skater who you do not see as "complete" -mind you, not Adelina, a generic skater - can tick enough boxes in the judging manual to score above what you consider a "complete skater"? Is it possible that a skater who is very strong in some areas but not all of them can outjump, outspin, out-transition a skater who does everything well but not exceptionally brilliantly in all the ways? Not according to your idea of "good skating", but according to the rules as they are?

The answer to your question is sadly, "Yes", but should be unlikely if they are fairly lacking in other areas. It should be even less likely if a more complete rival skates a virtually flawless program.

Still, As long as GOE and PCS is gerrymandered, it can be much easier for an incomplete skater to win (as shown in Sochi). make no mistake. Adelina Sotkinova did not win on the strength of her program's technical merit (Base Value). She won on the strength of the perceived merit of her technical elements (which was vastly overstated from other excellent performances- Yuna, Carolina, Mao etc.) and inflated marks on the quality of her skating and presentation.

The same holds for Julia who received far too many GOEs (way more than Yuna and Carolina and second only to Adelina). What is the common denominator here (and why do you think so many are bothered by this)?

ILuvYuna · Mar 27, 2014

[] edge call on 3lz (-2 to -3 GoE)
[] underrotation on 3T (-1 to -2 GoE)
[] lower bv and multiplier for L3 stepsequence

JMO, but I think Sot's win is just as much about the boxes that weren't ticked off :slink:

winky97 · Mar 27, 2014

karne said:
Yuna definitely did not have her heart on that ice. I think it's very obvious that she has been pressured into competing by the KSU for the last few years. That's not an insult -certainly not one directed at Yuna, anyway.

Adelina was better on the night.

And I'd love to know if any of you clamouring for Adelina's gold to be taken from her would have the balls to go up to her face and try.

Yuna's short program was beautiful and it was underscored and Adelina's with her easier combination and flying through her choreography was over scored having them just about in a dead heat. Adelina should have been in 3rd place and a very comfortable distant away for both Yuna and Carolina after the SP. While I will give you that after Yuna was done with that long program she looked so relieved to just have it over, her program was great. Not Vancouver great, but great. Yuna gave an interview in which she said that after the SP scoring she did not expect much in terms of her long program score, so maybe that is why she did not "have her heart on the ice". She already new that the judging was biased and not necessarily the pressure from her federation to compete.

As far as Adelina being better that night, she was not better than Yuna or Carolina and should have a bronze medal. I am trying so hard not talk bad about her program, but, it is hard because I hated it. I have tendency to re-watch programs on youtube sometimes years later, but I have no interest in watching that again. It was almost a circus like performance. Sure, Adelina delivered a spirited performance, but she was skating at home with the crowd screaming for her, so it is pretty easy to be spirited under those circumstances.

That being said, unless it could be proven that Adelina engaged in wrong doing her medal should not be taken away, but I don't have a problem with a solution like Salt Lake where two OGM ended up being awarded in the pairs event after questionable judging. Honestly, I don't think anything will be done because the ISU wants to pretend like there is not issue. However, if it were my job to take a medal from someone and it was determined that Adelina's or anyone else's should be taken away, I would be willing to go up to their face and do it. I would feel bad though and want to give them a hug.

Nadya · Mar 27, 2014

winky97 said:
Yuna's short program was beautiful and it was underscored and Adelina's with her easier combination and flying through her choreography was over scored having them just about in a dead heat. Adelina should have been in 3rd place and a very comfortable distant away for both Yuna and Carolina after the SP. While I will give you that after Yuna was done with that long program she looked so relieved to just have it over, her program was great. Not Vancouver great, but great. Yuna gave an interview in which she said that after the SP scoring she did not expect much in terms of her long program score, so maybe that is why she did not "have her heart on the ice". She already new that the judging was biased and not necessarily the pressure from her federation to compete.

As far as Adelina being better that night, she was not better than Yuna or Carolina and should have a bronze medal. I am trying so hard not talk bad about her program, but, it is hard because I hated it. I have tendency to re-watch programs on youtube sometimes years later, but I have no interest in watching that again. It was almost a circus like performance. Sure, Adelina delivered a spirited performance, but she was skating at home with the crowd screaming for her, so it is pretty easy to be spirited under those circumstances.

That being said, unless it could be proven that Adelina engaged in wrong doing her medal should not be taken away, but I don't have a problem with a solution like Salt Lake where two OGM ended up being awarded in the pairs event after questionable judging. Honestly, I don't think anything will be done because the ISU wants to pretend like there is not issue. However, if it were my job to take a medal from someone and it was determined that Adelina's or anyone else's should be taken away, I would be willing to go up to their face and do it. I would feel bad though and want to give them a hug.

And what is your theory on how Kim got underscored by a short program panel with no Russian judge on it?

And yes, you are correct, the two medals thing won't happen, and it will never be your job to take a medal from Adelina. Or, come to think of it, hug her.

winky97 · Mar 27, 2014

Nadya said:
And what is your theory on how Kim got underscored by a short program panel with no Russian judge on it?

And yes, you are correct, the two medals thing won't happen, and it will never be your job to take a medal from Adelina. Or, come to think of it, hug her.

I think Kim got underscored in the SP because she skated so early. While I have questioned the judging of this event, I have never said anything about the Russian judges doing anything, but being dumb enough to be photographed hugging Adelina right after judging the event, but since you want to go there I believe there were Russians on the technical panel that made decisions that impacted the scores in the SP.

No offense, but you need to chill a little. The person who I responded to asked whether someone who thought that Adelina's medal should be taken away would do it to her face and I was responding to them and trying to be a little humorous with the hug thing. However, since you don't know me or anything about me other than the fact that I believe that Adelina should have a bronze medal, you surely are in no position to speak on whether something will ever be my job, just like I am in no position to comment personally about you. I make every effort to not come off rude or hostile towards people on this board in commenting and I would appreciate the same courtesy.

Meoima · Mar 27, 2014

winky97 said:
I think Kim got underscored in the SP because she skated so early. While I have questioned the judging of this event, I have never said anything about the Russian judges doing anything, but being dumb enough to be photographed hugging Adelina right after judging the event, but since you want to go there I believe there were Russians on the technical panel that made decisions that impacted the scores in the SP.

I know this has been said already but I just want to send some thoughts, I do think there is some dubious plans going behind the judges and tech panel, but for the judge who hugged Adelina after the judging event, it practically means nothing. They are both Russians and the judge might just have congratulated her. The action itself say nothing at all. Mind you, I am not Russians. Anyways I think the SP score for Kim is well-deserved.

chalk5 · Mar 27, 2014

Do you guys know what is up with Adelina? We can't just put this under the rug you know. You win some, you lose some. And I think it's time for her to lose that gold medal and a career in figure skating in general. She is just not that good. She skates like a junior with that awkward landing transition with flowing hand move. Those things were taught when you are like 7 year old.

DaveT · Mar 27, 2014

Nadya said:
And what is your theory on how Kim got underscored by a short program panel with no Russian judge on it?

r.

It's a good question. Why did the SP panel that wasn't stacked liked the LP in both the judges and tech essentially tie Sotnikova with Kostner and Kim? I'd love to have this question answered too. And there has to be an answer and it's not because she deserved it.

South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

capcomeback

MiRé

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MiRé

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Meoima

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capcomeback

Nadya

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chalk5

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Nadya

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Nadya

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ILuvYuna

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Nadya

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Meoima

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chalk5

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