South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging | Page 74 | Golden Skate

South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I'd offhandedly estimate probably only around 2-5% of the posts in these threads actually talk about the subject of the thread.

Human nature. Only 2-5% of figure skating fans give a rat's patootie about analyzing CoP points. Instead, most fans like to gush over the sublime transcendence of their favorites, to cuss when their favorites lose, and to argue with their friends about it (said friends being idiots if they don't agree).

It is the same in every sport. In football, when a referee calls a penalty, half the stadium (the home team side) rises up shouting, "no, he was in bounds!" The other half (the visitor's rooting section) yells, "Good call, ref!" No one is really interested in whether the call is objectively correct or not.

Doris Pulaski said:
Yes, the old poker saying is true.

In political elections, it is never the winner who asks for a recount, either.

Not quite the same, though. When the loser at poker demands, "deal!" it is because he is mad that he lost and he wants a chance on the next hand to win his money back.

By the way (Ven can correct me if I am wrong about this), in friendly penny-ante poker among buddies, isn't there kind of an unwritten courtesy that says if you clean the other guy out, then you play one more hand and let him win a couple of bucks back, just so he won't go away mad?
 

Ven

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
That entire post by Flyushka misses the point. Figure skating competitions are supposed to be scored according to CoP.

1. Sotnikova's jumps were not downgraded as they should have been. This was either willful conspiracy or complete incompetence by the technical panel.

2. Sotnikova's levels (and those of her competitors like Yuna) were not scored correctly. This was either willful conspiracy or complete incompetence by the tech panel.

3. The Russian skaters in particular (and Gracie Gold to a lesser extent) experienced a meteoric rise in the their PCS and GOEs that no other skaters experienced. This closed the gap between these previously second rate skaters and the top ladies skaters in the world ... Sotnikova was able to outscore Kostner and Asada and essentially tie Kim on PCS. Try charting the PCS of all the top ladies skaters in the world over the last couple of years and you will see either a plateau or gradual increase, except the Russians all of a sudden saw a gigantic increase between Euros and Olympics.

I've already pointed out the incompetence or gross corruption of the tech panel, but in this case you also either have incompetence or intentional cheating on the part of some or all judges, unless one wants to argue that the Russians suddenly became that much better skaters overnight.

------

Again, you look at the systematic discrepancies throughout all aspects of the scoring, and the results cannot be explained by a judging "mistake". The fact that everything the technical panel did was wrong, and seemingly everything the judges did was at least hotly debatable if not wrong, a logical person can only draw one conclusion ... the scoring rules were disregarded and arbitrary numbers were churned out in order to validate pre-determined results.

Anything else is irrelevant. The only things that should be debated are:

1. Calls on the jumps.

2. Calls on the levels

3. PCS

4. GOEs

Nothing else matters.
 

Ven

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
By the way (Ven can correct me if I am wrong about this), in friendly penny-ante poker among buddies, isn't there kind of an unwritten courtesy that says if you clean the other guy out, then you play one more hand and let him win a couple of bucks back, just so he won't go away mad?

It's considered bad etiquette to clean someone out and leave. Technically anyone can do it but players will ostracize and avoid you in the future. So like the Russians, you can brag to your friends back home that you got lucky or cheated or whatever and won, but everyone else will just avoid you and shake their head when they see you in the future.
 

RABID

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
That entire post by Flyushka misses the point. Figure skating competitions are supposed to be scored according to CoP.

1. Sotnikova's jumps were not downgraded as they should have been. This was either willful conspiracy or complete incompetence by the technical panel.

2. Sotnikova's levels (and those of her competitors like Yuna) were not scored correctly. This was either willful conspiracy or complete incompetence by the tech panel.

3. The Russian skaters in particular (and Gracie Gold to a lesser extent) experienced a meteoric rise in the their PCS and GOEs that no other skaters experienced. This closed the gap between these previously second rate skaters and the top ladies skaters in the world ... Sotnikova was able to outscore Kostner and Asada and essentially tie Kim on PCS. Try charting the PCS of all the top ladies skaters in the world over the last couple of years and you will see either a plateau or gradual increase, except the Russians all of a sudden saw a gigantic increase between Euros and Olympics.

I've already pointed out the incompetence or gross corruption of the tech panel, but in this case you also either have incompetence or intentional cheating on the part of some or all judges, unless one wants to argue that the Russians suddenly became that much better skaters overnight.

------

Again, you look at the systematic discrepancies throughout all aspects of the scoring, and the results cannot be explained by a judging "mistake". The fact that everything the technical panel did was wrong, and seemingly everything the judges did was at least hotly debatable if not wrong, a logical person can only draw one conclusion ... the scoring rules were disregarded and arbitrary numbers were churned out in order to validate pre-determined results.

Anything else is irrelevant. The only things that should be debated are:

1. Calls on the jumps.

2. Calls on the levels

3. PCS

4. GOEs

Nothing else matters.


I am of two minds of this, Ven. While I think your points are valid I also note that it is now June and this thread is approaching 100 pages. A couple of questions: First, will this "issue" be forgotten if we all move on from this and, second, is Yuna's legacy REALLY hurt by the Sochi results? I don't believe so and ironically her silver may have been the best thing that happened to her; it is probably the most famous silver ever won in Olympic Figure Skating. :eek:hwell:
 

[email protected]

Medalist
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
It's considered bad etiquette to clean someone out and leave. Technically anyone can do it but players will ostracize and avoid you in the future. So like the Russians, you can brag to your friends back home that you got lucky or cheated or whatever and won, but everyone else will just avoid you and shake their head when they see you in the future.

Neither Adelina nor Yulia has quit. Then we all shall see quite soon how good they are. We already saw Yulia in Japan - she won silver. If she had not fallen her score would have been quite close to the winner - she does not have to prove that she is for real any longer. We shall also see what Adelina can offer after her well desrved gold medal. She was not perfect and her score was inflated, hence to get 149 plus she will need to go ahead. But once again she deserved the medal because the others were not better. Yuna with 6 triples, no loop, and spins from the last century - was her performance a clear winner? - no way and she is retired anyway. I try to not to interfere in this sick discussion. Just become angry when whiners keep saying "like the Russians", thank god, mentioning Putin has come out of favor.
 

Ven

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Rabid,

I think one good thing for Kwan fans is this whole Sochi thing shows how meaningless any of the Olympic medals are in the first place. Who cares if someone has a gold or silver or none at all when the medals are arbitrarily given out and not earned on the ice? The thing I'll remember most from this scandalous episode was Yuna's comment that she does not wish to be remembered as a gold medal or silver medal winner, she just wants people to remember there was once a figure skater named Kim Yuna. I think that's a beautiful sentiment, and whether she intended or not with her comment, I think it accurately reflects how meaningless the olympic medals are anyway.

As for still talking about it in June, what else is there to talk about? I don't mean just because it's the off-season either ... I mean if the competitions are not legitimate and fair, what's the point of watching the next one? There really is no moving on without truth and reconciliation.
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
To me there is no clear right or wrong here. I've never said anyone should win and never said anyone deserved to lose. IMHO all three medalists make a compelling case for gold. There was terrible scoring for sure yes. Yulia's 3lz-3t should not have scored a +3 from any judge for example. The 3t was landed bad and should get 0's and maybe a few +1's. I feel the same for Yuna's 3lz and Adelina's triple combo. Scoring will never be the same from judge to judge and that's why we have nine judges, drop two, and factor it out. That doesn't mean there is an excuse for what we saw in Sochi. Adelina 3lz-3t getting a +3 and -1 for example. The thing is it irks me to see Adelina,Yulia or anyone else for that matter being unfairly portrayed and made to look like less of a talent than they are(.)
 

Ven

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Neither Adelina nor Yulia has quit. Then we all shall see quite soon how good they are. We already saw Yulia in Japan - she won silver. If she had not fallen her score would have been quite close to the winner - she does not have to prove that she is for real any longer. We shall also see what Adelina can offer after her well desrved gold medal. She was not perfect and her score was inflated, hence to get 149 plus she will need to go ahead. But once again she deserved the medal because the others were not better. Yuna with 6 triples, no loop, and spins from the last century - was her performance a clear winner? - no way and she is retired anyway. I try to not to interfere in this sick discussion. Just become angry when whiners keep saying "like the Russians".

Whether you like it or not, what I mean is that Sotnikova's win will probably be celebrated in Russia, but it will be derided universally everywhere else.

I have nothing against Russian people or skaters (I even like Adelina), but that's reality.
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
1. So one result you disagree with invalidates all the medals given out over history?

2. If you invalidate the Sochi results, you also invalidate Yuna's gold medal in Vancouver. And let's remember she won silver in Sochi, not nothing.

So yes, as a Michelle Kwan fan, why not throw out all Olympic results ever? Michelle's five-time World champion and Yuna only twice. Michelle is therefore so much greater than Yuna, to render all comparisons laughable.
 

[email protected]

Medalist
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Whether you like it or not, what I mean is that Sotnikova's win will probably be celebrated in Russia, but it will be derided universally everywhere else.

I have nothing against Russian people or skaters (I even like Adelina), but that's reality.

Just try to be logical. In the poker example the bad guy is the one who quits after winning. Neither Yulia nor Adelina has quit - they are ready to keep proving themselves. It is Yuna who quit after Sochi. Of course, it has nothing to do with the result. But if she wanted to stay Russian girls would be ready to compete with her. What's the meaning of "like the Russians" then, I don't get it?
 

Ven

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
1. So one result you disagree with invalidates all the medals given out over history?

Listen, I will say this as a football, basketball, hockey, baseball, auto racing, golf, tennis etc. fan in middle America. I have watched countless teams and individual competitors lose over the years, some of them my favorites who I cheered for, and while some bad calls happen here and there, by and large the results were always determined in the field of play, and I accepted the results, as disappointing as they might have been.

But I have never, never seen such a case of blatant fraud as what happened in the Sochi Ladies figure skating competition. It was the single biggest fraud of any sporting event I have ever witnessed. These were two skaters who previously were not even in the same league when they both went clean. Had Yuna fallen or otherwise made a mess of her program, and Adelina outskated her, I would have absolutely felt Sotnikova should have deserved to win. But that's not what happened, and the results were not determined by what happened on the ice. The results were determined in some manner off the ice, and in order to validate the pre-determined results, the technical panel disregarded scoring rules and made systematically incorrect calls, and the judges disregarded scoring rules and made up their own numbers as well.

2. If you invalidate the Sochi results, you also invalidate Yuna's gold medal in Vancouver. And let's remember she won silver in Sochi, not nothing.

Yes I don't think Yuna's OGM or anyone else's medal means anything, because the competitions are not legitimate. The competitions are not legitimate because we're not dealing with an isolated rogue judge, but instead we're dealing with a corrupt sanctioning body and sport that feels it's ok to fix the outcomes of any or all competitions. It's clear to anyone willing to open their eyes that the ISU created IJS + anonymous judging to facilitate and hide cheating.

So that's the key point ... this isn't just one instance of cheating, so that all other results are legit and this one particular competition was shady. The problem is that the sanctioning body of the entire sport has intentionally created a system that fosters cheating and allows it to remain better hidden. What that means is that all competitions are suspect, not just present and future competitions, but past competitions as well. How do you know such and such skater legitimately won a certain medal in the past? Maybe they just came from a country with more political pull. Everything comes into question when the sanctioning body running the sport seems to care more about what happens off the ice than on it.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
The thing I'll remember most from this scandalous episode was Yuna's comment that she does not wish to be remembered as a gold medal or silver medal winner, she just wants people to remember there was once a figure skater named Kim Yuna.

“I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.” -- Maya Angelou.
 

Ven

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
“I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel.” -- Maya Angelou.

Great quote from an intelligent and insightful woman (RIP). Thanks for sharing that Mathman.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
But I have never, never seen such a case of blatant fraud as what happened in the Sochi Ladies figure skating competition. It was the single biggest fraud of any sporting event I have ever witnessed. These were two skaters who previously were not even in the same league when they both went clean. Had Yuna fallen or otherwise made a mess of her program, and Adelina outskated her, I would have absolutely felt Sotnikova should have deserved to win. But that's not what happened, and the results were not determined by what happened on the ice. The results were determined in some manner off the ice, and in order to validate the pre-determined results, the technical panel disregarded scoring rules and made systematically incorrect calls, and the judges disregarded scoring rules and made up their own numbers as well.

You haven't watched many sporting events then. There are faaaarrrr more fraudulent sporting events - I mean, think of all the doping, think of all the bad calls in major league games which denied teams pivotal wins. This was a case of a skater subjectively being given silver to another skater who was, up until that point, perceived as inferior to her. And in a subjective sport, that happens. At least Sotnikova skated well... in past competitions, skaters have imploded only to stay ahead of other (relatively) cleaner skaters -- like Lipnitskaia winning Cup of Russia, Chan winning 2013 Worlds, Kostner winning bronze over Pogorilaya, B/S over W/P at Cup of Russia, etc.

I mean, Lipnitskaia was considered hugely inferior to Kostner if both went clean. And look what happened in the Sochi team SP, or Euros. Machida was considered inferior to Fernandez going into 2014 Worlds, and yet he lead Fernandez after the SP at Worlds.
 

Ven

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
You haven't watched many sporting events then. There are faaaarrrr more fraudulent sporting events - I mean, think of all the doping, think of all the bad calls in major league games which denied teams pivotal wins. This was a case of a skater subjectively being given silver to another skater who was, up until that point, perceived as inferior to her. And in a subjective sport, that happens.

I should caveat my comment with non-doping examples. I guess the ICU covering up for Lance Armstrong probably takes the cake, but the extent of that still isn't known. Either way that was disgraceful.

But bad calls? They happen. There's a thing called 'variance' and it's present in all sports, more in some than others. There's a little bit of luck involved, and competitors need to thoroughly outplay their opponents so they don't have to worry about luck and bad calls. If you completely dominate the other team, then what does it matter if one or two bad calls go against you? If you are 20 strokes better than another golfer, then one unlucky bounce won't decide the outcome.

But when the match is close, luck can sometimes decide things. Two golfers separated by a stroke hit their ball in the same area on the last hole, one ball bounces left into the water or comes to rest in a divot, the other bounces right in perfect shape and that golfer goes on to win. Two football teams are neck and neck in a close match at the end of the game, and one call seems to be questionable. Well, it's one call out of hundreds in the game, perfection can't be expected, and unless one can prove intent behind the bad call, not much can be done. Sometimes variance plays a factor.

But in this case one can look back and see that Kim and Sotnikova were not even close to each other. It took the technical panel calling basically everything wrong, and the judges meteorically increasing her PCS and GOEs overnight, for her to come from "inferior" territory to "superior or equal" territory. The fact the scoring was done incorrectly and systematically in all areas indicates a willful conspiracy to fix the results, no matter what the skaters did on the ice.
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Don't forget World Cup 2002 where Italia and Spain got cheated despite playing much better and they even scored and were denied, don't forget FIFA and their numerous dubious activities. And that event was watched by millions of football fans all over the world. The most viewed sport of all time. :slink:
If you don't admit World cup 2002 scandal is one of the biggest frauds, then you are certainly biased. I remember watching WC 2002 with much much larger outrage than you. :unsure:
I mean I am not on the judging side but compare to figure skating where judges can use the subjective card, I can hardly call Sochi the biggest fraud ever.
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
I am not a big soccer fan so I didn't see it. :)
This is what you calk the dirtiest scandal ever in football history. http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPd8YmFcvtQ
Do you know what's more painful? Millions and millions of people watching that fraud but couldn't do anything.
I felt so bad for Portugal, Spain and Italy. Everyone in the world can see they were on the different level, and always have been. They scored fairly but were denied their goals because, lol, the judges decided to favor South Korea, the host nation.:disapp:
All 3 great teams had to pack their luggages earlier than they deserved thanked to bad judging/cheating/fraud. I was so happy the German team pulled it together to go against all odds. Just image if they were denied their goal, FIFA could have been smashed into pieces.
Funny enough, the next World Cup it's Italia the world champion, the following it's Spain. These 2 were both cheated in South Korea. :slink: they all became world champion after that scandal.
 
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