South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

R.D. · Mar 22, 2014

Apparently no one here thinks Julia's placement Robbed Ashley. Ashley has beautiful presentation and inho deserves higher PCS. She is very detailed and Samson and Delilah was very lovd in it's first season. Ashley melted down at us nationals, letting grace the jumper and also a beautiful woman on the ice, go ahead.

Well, I do at least :slink:

But in the big scheme of things it doesn't matter as much as what happened with the top 3, as Wagner's performance wasn't enough for a medal anyway.

While she was sub-par at nationals, I would stop short of calling it a meltdown because she DID fight through it. Now, Czisny at 2012 Worlds - THAT's a meltdown!!

Wagner was not going to win 2014 Nationals - best she could have placed is 2nd. Gold at or near her best = untouchable by Wagner.

R.D. · Mar 22, 2014

Also, I don't know why people are talking about stripping medals. That's not going to happen (unless the skater herself was involved in the deal, which would be unlikely). I think the Koreans, like most other skatefans, just want answers...and also to prevent the cards from being stacked like this again in the future.

caelum · Mar 22, 2014

I'm not terribly interested in the complaint itself. My only hope is that it gets known cheaters banned from ISU competitions. It's just embarrassing and damages the sport's reputation to have cheaters on the panel - especially at the Olympics. It makes it impossible for people (especially those not familiar with the fine details of the sport) to take it seriously

Of course, I don't think the ISU will ban cheaters. If there is any reform at all, I'm thinking that the reform will be to not just anonymize scores, but to anonymize judges also. No longer will judges be identified, they will just be hidden among audience members and nobody will know who they are. This will surely reduce corruption, vote trading, nationalistic bias, and federation pressure!

Skater Boy · Mar 22, 2014

fairly4 said:
too bad U.S. didn't do it regarding MIchelle kwan at the 1998 Olympics, 2002 grand prix final, 2002 worlds,
or other U.S. skaters.

too bad kazistan didn't do it for denis ten at the 2013 worlds

I think most of you are missing the point - the issue the korean federation and Ms. Stevens had against the Ukrainian judge is that the judge from whatever country was biased or did something against the ISU rule in respect to at least the appearance of fairness and impartiality. CAses in respect to Chan/Ten/Dai or kWAN AND Lipinksi etc would probably fail because you have to show the judge or judges did something unfair. In the case of Ten he wont he free skate and lost the short and lost overall. If I were the ISu AND SOMEONE made a complaint I would sue or go after the complainant for costs for being frivolous and vexatious and costing the ISU or whoever money. This site is great for people to give their opinions but when it comes to rules, code of conduct or in short the law there is much more than our own biases. You need to show a legal or rule breaking infraction not your often uneducated or self educated opinion as to what the results should have been That's why OJ simpson walked in some ways you need to show the legal infraction beyond a reasonable doubt in criminal law - yes the test is lower civilly and such - balance of probabilities. what grounds really can you appeal or complain about Kwan other than your gut feeling. People can make an appeal or complaint all they want -whether it has legal merit is another question. The defence counsel on criminal matters can appeal any decision even try to make up technical or creative reasons but the Crown or prosecutors who have to consider the rights of the accused and the public interest need to show a legal error in law to appeal or complain. So a judge who they don't like their decision they can't or shouldn't appeal. They need to show a legal error ie the judge failed to apply the law correctly or made an error in the law. Simply because the judge said they didn't believe the witness which is thejob of the judge as trier of fact does not give a ground for an appeal - admittedly the accused if convicted will often appeal because they might be behind bars or whatever but the Crown or prosecutors might not like the decision but unless there is a legitimate error in law they kno it is wrong to waste taxpayers money and court's time. Meanwhile the accused often with legal aid coverage can do whatever they want no matter how strong or weak at law because they are not accountable to the public coffers etc.

capcomeback · Mar 22, 2014

skateluvr said:
I think Yuna is pleased with her skating and even the result. If there were several federations decrying the meteoric rise of the pcs/goe scores for Adelina and Julia, I could get behind that. Adelina did things technically Yuna did not. All the detractors are 6.0 era skaters on the record as hating IJS, and some very vocal ones like Dick Button. I think given the rules, Adelina was the superior IJS technician in the short and long. We all feel the PCS was inflated for her this season as with Julia. Other skaters are much more "skaterly" and beautiful to watch. personally, I like art over sport and think that Caro had the most awesome SP. I liked YuNa's SP. A lovely goodbye. And YuNa to some was always overscored in PCS. Adelina's LP was very different and modern. I think YuNa would have won the gold with her 2013 World's performances. Watch them again. She was much more committed. YuNa wanted to come back but also clearly just wanted it over. She was not robbed.

Many americans loved Kwan's Lyra Angelica and feel tara robbed her. I do not, though I seldom watch Tara's programs from Nagano but have watched Lyra 50 times. Frank told Mi chelle she was not robbed and that people would say so (her popularity was huge by then here in USA after the sordid Tonya mess. ) He told her she skated very well but Tara skated better. Here again, the technical aspects were what got the judges and she skated with very good and fairly mature presentation. It was close. In a subjective sport, someone is always unhappy. Apparently no one here thinks Julia's placement Robbed Ashley. Ashley has beautiful presentation and inho deserves higher PCS. She is very detailed and Samson and Delilah was very lovd in it's first season. Ashley melted down at us nationals, letting grace the jumper and also a beautiful woman on the ice, go ahead. Even Mirai outskated her. This looks to have affected Ash's standing with the ISU judges. Ashley could have done a triple axel and likely would still be placed in same spot.

Polina Edmunds does a great SP. But she is so gangly...she did very well. Watch Mae Berenice Meite. This girl if she keeps improving should be a factor with her sheer athletic attack. But they will not like her because of her body type. She may do triple axels but they want a mao body, not a harding type body. Plus France is not much of a skating power, having success only with Joubert and ice dancers. Plus, they are racist. mae Berenice is not packaged well. No ice princesss, they will hold her down, and I predict she will work her butt off to become an amazing athletic skater. She has the goods. But she will be up against Gracie, the Russian babies (Radionova is the next Russian Nova to hit us_, and whatever Asian phenom takes the lead with Yuna, Mao, and Akiko gone.

In 2018, Whoever skates for Korea will be marked very generously.

Too bad Kazakstan did not file a complaint last year because Denis Ten skated so much better than Chan. No one seemed to care much. He doesn't have a huge internet fan base like YuNa, THE MOST BELOVED WOMAN IN KOREA. I HONETLY DO NOT THINK VERY MANY kOREANS CAN BE OBJECTIVE ABOUT Yuna. I was very please with her SP. It was as lovely as she ever skated, and poignant. She also skated her LP well. But something was missing-call it attack, which surprised me. Still, she was very nervous I think, and I am glad she did not fall. Silver is very good. So Maybe the technical specialists missed some less than perfect jumps with Sotnikova?

No one is going to strip her of the medal. The side by side comparisons I have seen pretty much tell the story. yuNa is much more pleasant to watch in the LP. I agree her skating is prettier. I dislike that Sotnikova LP. I could much more easily take the planned overscoring of Julia because she is much morepleasant to watch, and her LP really was a great program, and it grew on me all season.

I found it much more disturbing what was happening in Ukraine as the Olympics waned, and NBC was not even covering it from Sochi. But that is politics and not for this thread, however disturbing it was. Shame on NBC.

You make some interesting points, but you're still missing the fact that Adelina made mistakes in the FS that weren't called by the tech panel. Additionally, Adelina and Yuna were in a flatfooted tie going into the FS. Considering Yuna had a BV advantage and skated as technically well, I don't see how this happened (one of Brian Boitano's arguments). The GOE inflation was also ridiculous for Adelina in both the SP & FS. Now let's talk about PCS. This is where the Adelina's overall scores can't be defended. Technically, you can argue she skated better (if you ignore all of the mistakes and she had three more than Yuna), but with the GOE inflation the variance should have been a lot less, but with PCS, Yuna should have won by the GM by 5 points. Several of Adelina's components were ungodly and were not deserving.

Incidentally, Weiss (granted, the tail end of his career) and Bradley are both IJS era skaters and have been vocal critics of the scoring.

jenaj · Mar 22, 2014

chuckm said:
Kruglova was suspended for a year. I'm sure she will be back judging again. Remember that name!

A one year suspension--what a joke! This is everything that is wrong with the ISU.

Meoima · Mar 22, 2014

jenaj said:
A one year suspension--what a joke! This is everything that is wrong with the ISU.

Corrupted judges should be banned from judging forever.

jenaj · Mar 22, 2014

FlattFan said:
Tread lightly, there are a lot of Korean sponsored money on the table. Same for Japan.
If they high five the wrong person, ISU can start selling baked goods to Europe for coins. Pretend to investigate instead of responding let them eat cake would be wiser.

I wish some of these powerful--money-wise, at least-- federations would band together and oust Speedy and the rest of the corrupt (or indifferent to corruption) officials who run the ISU. Why isn't someone from Japan or Korea, or the US for that matter, in line to head the ISU once Speedy steps down. Instead, the talk is of Didier G. of France, who presided over the cheating French judge in 2002, as his successor! Why does it have to be a European? I wish figure skating could break off from the ISU and be headed by figure skaters, not speed skaters, and could clean house to end (or at least severely penalize) cheating once and for all.

oo7 · Mar 22, 2014

Are there any positions of power at the ISU occupied by non european ?

gmyers · Mar 22, 2014

oo7 said:
Are there any positions of power at the ISU occupied by non european ?

Of course there are. It's all public. It's very continent conciliatory. Must be an Asian, North American and European sharing power in every single branch.

karne · Mar 22, 2014

Is it, or is it not, true that there was an actual KSU official sitting on the technical panel at the Vancouver Olympics?

Because if it is true, then the KSU are filthy rotten hypocrites, and should shut their mouths.

Meoima · Mar 22, 2014

You can check here for yourself:

http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2010/SEG004OF.HTM

cooper · Mar 22, 2014

karne said:
Is it, or is it not, true that there was an actual KSU official sitting on the technical panel at the Vancouver Olympics?

Because if it is true, then the KSU are filthy rotten hypocrites, and should shut their mouths.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2010/SEG004OF.HTM

karne · Mar 22, 2014

cooper said:
http://www.isuresults.com/results/owg2010/SEG004OF.HTM

Oho, you think you are very clever.

But as I, unlike some of the Yuna fans, do not make assumptions where people are from based on their name, that is unhelpful.

EDIT:

However, after Googling all of the names, I found that Chihee Rhee was actually the vice-president of the KSU when she judged the ladies' event at the Vancouver Olympics. So my point stands: the KSU had no problem with officials sitting on panels in Vancouver, thus they are hypocrites who should shut up and quit being sore losers.

gmyers · Mar 22, 2014

http://m.koreatimes.co.kr/phone/news/view.jsp?req_newsidx=53829

"I was able to become a judge this time thanks to Kim Yu-na. But I'm concerned that this might be the first and last chance to become a judge for the Winter Olympics," Rhee said. "We should produce a player who can succeed Kim at the earliest possible time."

cooper · Mar 22, 2014

karne said:
Oho, you think you are very clever.

But as I, unlike some of the Yuna fans, do not make assumptions where people are from based on their name, that is unhelpful.

EDIT:

However, after Googling all of the names, I found that Chihee Rhee was actually the vice-president of the KSU when she judged the ladies' event at the Vancouver Olympics. So my point stands: the KSU had no problem with officials sitting on panels in Vancouver, thus they are hypocrites who should shut up and quit being sore losers.

yeah.. rheee has the history of cheating.. 2010 was held in korea..that rhee substituted one judge just for that free skate alone..that she went backstage, hugged yuna with no care in the world with cameras on their faces.. and she can influence anyone on that judging panel.. after all ksu is such a powerful federation.. oh wait.. :laugh:

Sam-Skwantch · Mar 22, 2014

cooper said:
yeah.. rheee has the history of cheating.. 2010 was held in korea..that rhee substituted one judge just for that free skate alone.. and she can influence anyone on that judging panel.. after all ksu is such a powerful federation.. oh wait..

While I do not defend any judging in Sochi I feel compelled to point out how ridiculous it is for Korea to send their actual VP of KSU four years earlier to Vancouver and then four years later cry foul when Russia sends the wife of one. You can't make this crap up. The whole thing is a comedy show.

cooper · Mar 22, 2014

Sam-Skwantch said:
While I do not defend any judging in Sochi I feel compelled to point out how ridiculous it is for Korea to send their actual VP of KSU four years earlier to Vancouver and then four years later cry foul when Russia sends the wife of one. You can't make this crap up. The whole thing is a comedy show.

i can see there's a conflict of interest also in that regard.. but shekhovtseva substituted (w/ balkov) 2 judges just in time for the free skate.. in which the scores are virtually tied after the sp.. so it makes you wonder..

Sam-Skwantch · Mar 22, 2014

cooper said:
i can see there's a conflict of interest also in that regard.. but shekhovtseva substituted (w/ balkov) 2 judges just in time for the free skate.. in which the scores are virtually tied after the sp.. so it makes you wonder..

Like I said, I'm not defending Sochi judging one bit!! The whole thing is a headscratcher. I've often commented how I believe my favorite was over scored and I am not trying to be biased in my views. I just think the standard of decency and fairness should apply to ALL. It's like a little kid who throws something at his sister and then when she throws it back he runs to mommy. Yuna leads by example. All the federations could take notes on how to conduct themselves from her!!

Edit: I should add that this shouldn't discredit or discourage the official complaint which I haven't seen the exact details of. I would hope they haven't included the part about the Russian VP's wife. For the sake of credibility. If they have maybe they should amend their claim.

winky97 · Mar 22, 2014

karne said:
Oho, you think you are very clever.

But as I, unlike some of the Yuna fans, do not make assumptions where people are from based on their name, that is unhelpful.

EDIT:

However, after Googling all of the names, I found that Chihee Rhee was actually the vice-president of the KSU when she judged the ladies' event at the Vancouver Olympics. So my point stands: the KSU had no problem with officials sitting on panels in Vancouver, thus they are hypocrites who should shut up and quit being sore losers.

From what I read, South Korea is challenging because they feel that the scoring was unfair. While many fans are complaining about the judge on the panel being married to someone of Russia's skating federation, I have not seen anything that says that is the basis for South Korea's challenge. I am sure that they realize that a member of their skating union judged in 2010 so it would be silly of them to base the challenge on this. They have every right to challenge this if they choose to. It is not like it is unheard of that the fix would be in on a figure skating event. Plenty of people, many who are not South Korean, question the results and judging in the 2014 ladies event. I am included in that. Maybe they did some research and determined they had support for their challenge. The judge and Adelina being dumb enough to be photographed standing there hugging and celebrating right after the event did not help the situation. Even if they did not do anything wrong, it makes them look bad and gives people a ammunition to call their conduct into question.

While I think Adelina should not have gotten the OGM, I hated her FS, and think she deserved a bronze medal, I think that the time to challenge the scoring has passed. Though I do think that a basis exists to question the scoring and should have been raised sooner, if they wanted to go there. Adelina's SP with the easiest 3 3 combination jump of the top ladies should not have had her almost in a dead heat with Kim and in the position that it could even be argued that she won with that ugly FS. Adelina's components scores were ridiculous as well. It not like there is absolutely no reason to question this result. If the challenge at least causes the ISU to make some positive changes for the sake of its sport's integrity, that would be a good thing.

South Korean federation's complaint to the ISU about judging

R.D.

R.D.

caelum

Skater Boy

capcomeback

jenaj

Meoima

Match Penalty

jenaj

oo7

gmyers

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

Meoima

Match Penalty

cooper

karne

in Emergency Backup Mode

gmyers

cooper

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

cooper

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”

winky97

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