What would have happened at Nationals from 2000-2006 had Sasha gone clean | Golden Skate

What would have happened at Nationals from 2000-2006 had Sasha gone clean

pangtongfan

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Joined
Jun 16, 2010
What would have happened at Nationals from 2000-2006 had Sasha gone clean

Obviously Michelle Kwan dominated U.S Nationals for a long time. However there was always hype for Sasha Cohen to dethrone Kwan there, but it never happened, with Sasha winning her only title in 2006 when Kwan didnt skate. Even in 2004 and 2005 when Sasha had displaced Kwan internationally and placed above her at worlds, Kwan emerged victorious at Nationals. However Sasha also never skated cleanly at Nationals, the closest being 2002 when she put her hands down on a jump at the end. Kwan always skated perfectly, except 2000 where Sasha would have needed her help to win at that point anyway. What would happened at each of these Nationals year by year to those with a good enough memory had Sasha gone clean. My guesses:

2000- I think they would have given Sasha the win had she not fallen on her last jump over a very subpar Michelle who fell.
2001- Sasha didnt skate, but was never winning this year anyway. She had a mediocre international season and was lowballed by the judges on the grand prix even when she skated well, showing she still had work to do at this point.
2002- Kwan would have won. Sasha's mistake was not that big and she still lost handily and barely took 2nd over Hughes who was about 80% her SLC level at most.
2003- I think they would have given Sasha the win. She had dominated the grand prix and had all the momentum coming in, even if Michelle skated great. Michelle also skated first in the last flight and they had to leave room for Sasha to win. I think Sasha was also still doing the triple lutz-triple toe around now although not sure if she did at Nationals.
2004- Tough to say. My gut feeling is Sasha winning, but Michelle skated amazingly well after Sasha and got 7 6.0s, but she might not have gotten those if Sasha had skated cleanly, and Sasha got a 6.0 from one judge even with a fall and ugly two footed landing.
2005- Sasha wins for sure. Michelle was lackluster, doubling her 2nd triple lutz, and skating to her lackluster Bolero number. Even if skating last she got some candy joke 6.0s after Sasha had faltered though.

So my guess would be Sasha could actually have 5 National titles which would be the same as Michelle is left with, which is amazing to think when in actuality it is Kwan who was so dominant at U.S Nationals. Of course that would require Sasha skating cleanly each time, which would never be realistic anyway, when Kwan who was a far more consistent skater and jumper didnt even manage that.
 

jcsamex

Rinkside
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Jan 11, 2014
I agre on all you said. As talented as she was from the very first senior competition of her career at the age of 15, Sasha could never become a strong competitor (but even when falling once to three times in a competition, she ended up on the podium or very close to it because of her beautiful skating.

Having said that, I do think she somehow managed to influence the ladies' skating far more than dominant Kwan ever did. Nowadays, we see young girls with amazing extension on her choreographic spiral sequences and beautiful flexibility on their difficult spinning positions and overall posture presentation (and many of them actually copy some of her signature moves).
 

pangtongfan

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Jun 16, 2010
It does seem many young skaters have alot of Sasha esque moves. However I do think alot of that is just because COP is very oriented to alot of the type of moves someone like Sasha does.
 

jenaj

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Having said that, I do think she somehow managed to influence the ladies' skating far more than dominant Kwan ever did. Nowadays, we see young girls with amazing extension on her choreographic spiral sequences and beautiful flexibility on their difficult spinning positions and overall posture presentation (and many of them actually copy some of her signature moves).

The "it" factor can't be copied. You either have it or you don't.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I agre on all you said. As talented as she was from the very first senior competition of her career at the age of 15, Sasha could never become a strong competitor (but even when falling once to three times in a competition, she ended up on the podium or very close to it because of her beautiful skating.

Having said that, I do think she somehow managed to influence the ladies' skating far more than dominant Kwan ever did. Nowadays, we see young girls with amazing extension on her choreographic spiral sequences and beautiful flexibility on their difficult spinning positions and overall posture presentation (and many of them actually copy some of her signature moves).

It is interesting how much stylistic influence Sasha has had on later skaters. I wish she'd decided to stay on at least partway through the next Olympic cycle. As it turned out, we really needed someone of her caliber.
 

gmyers

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Mar 6, 2010
She always had clean Sps and almost always lost to Kwan! Facts are she was never beating Kwan.
 

Tutto

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Obviously Michelle Kwan dominated U.S Nationals for a long time. However there was always hype for Sasha Cohen to dethrone Kwan there, but it never happened, with Sasha winning her only title in 2006 when Kwan didnt skate. Even in 2004 and 2005 when Sasha had displaced Kwan internationally and placed above her at worlds, Kwan emerged victorious at Nationals. However Sasha also never skated cleanly at Nationals, the closest being 2002 when she put her hands down on a jump at the end. Kwan always skated perfectly, except 2000 where Sasha would have needed her help to win at that point anyway. What would happened at each of these Nationals year by year to those with a good enough memory had Sasha gone clean. My guesses:

2000- I think they would have given Sasha the win had she not fallen on her last jump over a very subpar Michelle who fell.
2001- Sasha didnt skate, but was never winning this year anyway. She had a mediocre international season and was lowballed by the judges on the grand prix even when she skated well, showing she still had work to do at this point.
2002- Kwan would have won. Sasha's mistake was not that big and she still lost handily and barely took 2nd over Hughes who was about 80% her SLC level at most.
2003- I think they would have given Sasha the win. She had dominated the grand prix and had all the momentum coming in, even if Michelle skated great. Michelle also skated first in the last flight and they had to leave room for Sasha to win. I think Sasha was also still doing the triple lutz-triple toe around now although not sure if she did at Nationals.
2004- Tough to say. My gut feeling is Sasha winning, but Michelle skated amazingly well after Sasha and got 7 6.0s, but she might not have gotten those if Sasha had skated cleanly, and Sasha got a 6.0 from one judge even with a fall and ugly two footed landing.
2005- Sasha wins for sure. Michelle was lackluster, doubling her 2nd triple lutz, and skating to her lackluster Bolero number. Even if skating last she got some candy joke 6.0s after Sasha had faltered though.

So my guess would be Sasha could actually have 5 National titles which would be the same as Michelle is left with, which is amazing to think when in actuality it is Kwan who was so dominant at U.S Nationals. Of course that would require Sasha skating cleanly each time, which would never be realistic anyway, when Kwan who was a far more consistent skater and jumper didnt even manage that.

So nice to see a thread about Sasha! Many thanks, Pangtongfan! Its so refreshing after all that endless Adelina -Yuna battle... I am a huge Sasha fan and I miss her terribly.
Just a correction about 2001. She got a problem with her back (severe arthritis) at the very beginning of the 2000/2001 season and didn't compete all season. She could skate but could not do any jumps at all; and had to re-learn all her jumps in the spring of 2001. So it was not a case of not winning anything that season but not competing at all.
I feel that her back problem (which was recurring) was a major reason why she didnt win more competitions, she lost a lot of confidence in her jumps and they let her down continuously. I wish she never tried quad which definetely contributed to her arthritis if not caused it at all.
Also I think she paid a price for being artistic it is difficult if not impossible to combine such level of artistry with a 7 triple layout in lp she continuously attempted.
 

jenaj

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i never saw 'it' with sasha, she was one of the most itless skaters i've ever seen

Yes, Michelle was the one with "it" factor. The original post said that Sasha was influential because later skaters copied her bendy positions. But what Michelle had couldn't be copied.
 

poleptina

Rinkside
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Feb 23, 2014
So my guess would be Sasha could actually have 5 National titles which would be the same as Michelle is left with, which is amazing to think when in actuality it is Kwan who was so dominant at U.S Nationals.

Agreed. But she could never be consistent with her jumps which is such a shame. I also think Sasha should have had first place in 2000.
 

MKFSfan

Medalist
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Mar 15, 2006
the facts are she beat Kwan at Worlds in 2004 and 2005

And in 2004, Michelle did beat her in the FS so it wasn't as a decisive win and most of Michelle's wins over Sasha were. So basically, on the important stages (meaning not Cheesefests), Sasha has won 4 SPs (Nats '00/'04, Worlds '04/'05)and 1 LP (Worlds '05) over Michelle (plus two Cheesefests LPs I believe). Over 6 years. That's not a good win %.

What I find very telling is that of all Michelle's wins at Nationals, Sasha never stole an ordinal in the LP. I think if Sasha was crystal clean and Michelle had mistakes, she should've won regardless who the better skater was at the time, but I think with the exception of maybe 2003 and 2004 (Sasha had a lot of momentum going into Nationals those years, IIRC), Michelle had a one fall advantage over Sasha. She was not going to beat Michelle in 2000 or 2002 if she had been clean with how Michelle skated those years, she barely edged Sarah out for silver. I hate when people play the "what if" game because had Sasha been more Tara-like in "bringing it" when it counted, who is to say how Michelle would've skated-would she have stepped it up and been even better...or would she have faltered instead? Much like Shiz in 2006-she didn't have to risk a lot at Olympics, just needed to let her strengths shine through and not fall.

Michelle was a great 6.0 skater, with many strengths. Who knows what would have happened had Michelle came up under COP instead, but if she still had the same foundation, I truly believe she would've excelled, just would not have had the same longevity. I always felt Sasha was missing something, which was more evident in person, IMO. She was amazingly flexible and had beautiful positions and fantastic spins, but her power, blade work, basic technique, ice coverage was inferior compared to some of the skaters who came up training figures.

Again, IMO. I am a life long Michelle fan, but after SLC, I was waiting for Sasha to come out and win everything and I kinda feel like she kept coming up short because of her basics, more so than her nerves.
 

Kitt

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Michelle never did a thing for me; it was Sasha who got me interested in ladies' skating. And I think that is why people love Julia L; she is reminiscent of Sasha.
 

Tutto

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Jan 25, 2013
Michelle never did a thing for me; it was Sasha who got me interested in ladies' skating. And I think that is why people love Julia L; she is reminiscent of Sasha.

Same here! I am ashamed of myself but I just don't see anything in Michelle's skating apart from good jumps. I hope one day i'll finally see that magic, I'd love to. Yes, I too got interested in Julia becouse something in her reminds me of Sasha, not just her flexibility - I think Julia's going too far in that regard, it scares me really. But unfortunately Julia lacks Sasha's misicality and thats one of the things I love so much about Sasha - you could virtually see every note going through her entire body. Julia apprears not to be listening to the music at all. Still I'd love to see how Julia will develop
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
For whatever reason, Michelle almost always brought her best to Nationals. I think she felt that she owed it the fans that paid to see her perform and to her family which supported her skating with great sacrifice.

She was not going to give it away. If you want the national title against Michelle, you have to come and take it.
 

Kitt

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True. Her anger (passion?) at 2004 Nationals was really something to behold. (Of course, I still wanted Sasha to win.) Later on, I came to appreciate Michelle's edges.
 

Tutto

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
For whatever reason, Michelle almost always brought her best to Nationals. I think she felt that she owed it the fans that paid to see her perform and to her family which supported her skating with great sacrifice.

She was not going to give it away. If you want the national title against Michelle, you have to come and take it.

I believe the difference in their financial backgrounds played a big role, Michelle had to fight for everything while Sasha was born so to speak with a silver spoon...Of course Sasha & her family made many a sacrifice too for her career but it was not a question of surviving like with Michelle. No wonder who was the toughest one
 

skatedreamer

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Same here! I am ashamed of myself but I just don't see anything in Michelle's skating apart from good jumps. I hope one day i'll finally see that magic, I'd love to. Yes, I too got interested in Julia becouse something in her reminds me of Sasha, not just her flexibility - I think Julia's going too far in that regard, it scares me really. But unfortunately Julia lacks Sasha's misicality and thats one of the things I love so much about Sasha - you could virtually see every note going through her entire body. Julia apprears not to be listening to the music at all. Still I'd love to see how Julia will develop

Major Michelle fan here...but seeing Sasha skate for the first time (sheesh, that was a long time ago) I remember thinking that she was one of the few women who could equal or surpass Michelle. It's sad that she never seemed to reach her full potential -- a loss for everyone who loves beautiful skating. Still miss her spirals!

Re: musicality/listening to the music, I've had the same sense about Julia. She seems oddly detached from her music and I hope she'll develop a greater connection to it as she matures. She's an extraordinary skater and an amazingly focused competitor so if she can add musicality and artistry to that package, we may be looking at one of the best ever.
 
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