Elena Ilinykh & Nikita Katsalapov Split

hanca said:

My understanding is (I read it somehwre here or on the other forum) that after worlds Elena and Nikita were supposed to go to train to Zoueva, so maybe the Federation decided that the new pair (not officially confirmed pair) should go there to see how it goes. I can't see why it shouldn't be legal that Victoria and Nikita went to Zoueva. If I wanted to go to Zoueva (and had a partner) and she took me, that's a contract between me and Zoueva. If Russian Federation decides not approve them, they can refuse to fund them, but there is nothing illegal on a person skating with another person.

I don't know who pays for it, but I am sure the families can afford to pay for their children to train somewhere for 3 weeks. After all, most families pay for their coaches all year round. It is only in several countries that skaters get some funding. Most countries can't afford it and the skaters/their parents pay themselves (sponsors, or parents doing several jobs, or skaters having some part time job e.g. teaching skating classes, or remortgaging house if they have to). Besides, Nikita's family may not be rich, but Nikita for example brought a gold and bronze medal from Sochi and got a car as a reward. If they were really struggling financially, I am sure he could sell the car! But there may not be need for that; he must have some sponsors. Skating is popular in Russia and he brought two medals from Olympics.

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Ryan O said:

I don't know if there was that much advanced planning by the judges. There probably was a bias in favour of I&K (which we saw in the very high PCS in the SD despite the twizzle wipe-out), but some of the judging may have been as a result of having the top 2 dance teams absent after so many years. With V&M and D&W gone, it makes sense that it was hard to determine who the top team was. In the past 4 seasons, V&M and D&W had a lock on the top 2 spots, and it was everyone else fighting for the bronze.

This year was the first time in years that ALL the podium spots became open, particularly with B&S withdrawing, and then I&K messing up the SD. The fact that I&K placed 1st in the FD and so high in PCS in the SD does back up your contention that they may have been favoured. Part of that may be because they were the only medalists from the Olympics who went to Sochi. But some of the close results between positions 1-4 (scores all between 175-174) may also just be a reflection of what happens when you have a field of teams that are close in ability when you remove gold and silver medalists (D&W and V&M).

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Ryan O said:

I think one of the articles said that S&K have applied to be registered as a new partnership, yes? I'm not sure about I&Z. Presumably both partnerships will want to be officially registered as teams soon so that they can be entered into the competition roster for next season.

Some of these delays and roadblocks may have also been to make sure this is what these new teams really want and to make them think it through before cutting the cord for good.

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hanca said:

Sisinka, please, stop worrying about their money. Do you think that someone who brought two medals from Sochi, gold and bronze, doesn't have any sponsors? Besides, he can always sell the car they got for their medal. I am sure that Nikita would not have financial problems even if the Federation did not fund him for a while.

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sisinka said:

Personally I am for equal chances for everybody. Right know there are all National Team couples (B&S, M&K, S&B, R&T - if still exist, Y&M and other juniors) above I&Z and S&K looking at results, skating qualities, because both new couples needs time to learn how to skate together. If Russian Federation is giving money to S&K...why? Why not to I&Z for new choroegrapher...for example Krylova? But with Mutko's decision about no dotation for new couples..OK, no money to I&Z as well. Why not those money for National Teams? Maybe Stepanova & Bukin would like to go to Zueva for three weeks training camp, why not? Maybe Monko & Khaliavin would like to go to Krylova for training camp, why not? Maybe Yanovskaya & Mozgov would like to choreography from Zueva, why not? Why is Russian Federation's attention turn to Victoria and Nikita? Why they just can't confirm new couples (why both Victoria and Nikita persist on it), give red light to Lena and Ruslan and concentrate on people and couples who have order in their life and on ice relationships? I thik it would be much more professional and wise from Russian Federation.

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Alba said:

You can't have equal chances for everybody though. I mean the Fed will always give more support to the couple that they judge as the better couple, more talented etc.

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bramweld said:

Well assuming that Lena and Nikita are both halves of the Olympic bronze medal at the outset they should be given an equal chance. Champions are not born overnight. It took I/K six years to get to this point. It would take something truly magnificent to get to that same place in one season, just saying.

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sisinka said:

I am sure that money question is not hurting Nikita and I am not hyped up with his money, my reason is different a little bit...
I am not a fan of his behind the scenes behaviour, not the split itself, but how he did it. I believe (personally I know) he had more reasons for running away, but I don't like HOW he did it. He and Victoria destroyed two of three top Russian couples. OK, it happened and it is time to move on. Solve all problems and start new season's preparation. But what is Russian Federation doing? Waiting...asking Zueva for three weeks of help...another waiting...asking media for patience.

Personally I am for equal chances for everybody. Right know there are all National Team couples (B&S, M&K, S&B, R&T - if still exist, Y&M and other juniors) above I&Z and S&K looking at results, skating qualities, because both new couples needs time to learn how to skate together. If Russian Federation is giving money to S&K...why? Why not to I&Z for new choroegrapher...for example Krylova? But with Mutko's decision about no dotation for new couples..OK, no money to I&Z as well. Why not those money for National Teams? Maybe Stepanova & Bukin would like to go to Zueva for three weeks training camp, why not? Maybe Monko & Khaliavin would like to go to Krylova for training camp, why not? Maybe Yanovskaya & Mozgov would like to choreography from Zueva, why not? Why is Russian Federation's attention turn to Victoria and Nikita? Why they just can't confirm new couples (why both Victoria and Nikita persist on it), give red light to Lena and Ruslan and concentrate on people and couples who have order in their life and on ice relationships? I thik it would be much more professional and wise from Russian Federation.

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Alba said:

You can't have equal chances for everybody though. I mean the Fed will always give more support to the couple that they judge as the better couple, more talented etc.

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hanca said:

That's the problem! You don't even know if they are paying S/K, but you have already managed to question IF they are paying him, 'WHY'? Maybe it would be a good idea to first find out if they are paying him at all before you start sending posts on questions 'why'...

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sisinka said:

Then it would go to decision to send both S&K and I&Z to Zueva, but it didn't happen.

Russian Federation should work for the best possible placement and strategy for all Russian skating, not for just S&K. I&K gave the biggest amount of medals plus two Olympic medals, that is true. But a couple split. Now they are two people who are working with somebody else. A title of Olympic medalists will always stay aside their names, but with new partner both Lena and Nikita start from zero. They will work on new reputation, new placement, new opportunity given from judges to take some medal - it will take months and years.
So, right know (to my sorry to Ruslan and Lena who didn't come with this split idea), there are couples who are more promising looking at results (at least this coming season's results)...and those couples should be more supported from Federation and more under control of Federation's eyes to be able to improve then new two couples who will start from zero and learn how to skate together (while other top Russian teams were learning how to skate together like team already many years ago).

And junior teams need to be supported as well, in few years some of them will come on places of senior Russian top teams and they will need "good" name from juniors. So, they need Russian Federation's support and attention more than somebody who is Gorshkov afraid if they will be compatible. That is my opinion.

I wouldn't make this agony last longer, I would make new teams official, let them work and let Federation concentrate on other teams who need help while new teams will work in peace and do their best for future results. That's all.

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hanca said:

That's the problem! You don't even know if they are paying S/K, but you have already managed to question IF they are paying him, 'WHY'? Maybe it would be a good idea to first find out if they are paying him at all before you start sending posts on questions 'why'...

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sisinka said:

Yes, you are right...but I doubt that Gorshkov will tell me or media how was it done.
But a fact that S&K went for tryout to Zueva (I can't remember any other case that a tryout would be done in such way), the fact that Gorshkov announced it, the fact that Gorshkov announced this info to Kustarova, the fact that Zueva herself gave an interview to Russian media (while Nikita and Viki are quiet, so if it would be between kids and Zueva only I doubt that she would give an interview...also if it would be between kids and Zueva, she would simply start to train them, not to do a three weeks tryout and then to send them to Russian Federation back)...this all leads to idea that it is not between kids and Zueva, but it was arranged by Russian Federation.

I was wondering whether somebody doesn't know more about it.

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hanca said:

Well, it could for example be like this:
Katsalapov insisting that he wants to skate with Sinitsina. Federation hoping he will change his mind if he realises how much work is involved (that they would have to start from the beginning). So the Federation could have said - OK, this is the deal: you go with Sinitsina to Zoueva, (you pay for it because we can't fund you at the moment), you spend there three weeks and after those three weeks Zoueva will send us a report. If Zoueva will report that the partnership may have potentially a future, we will give you approval for skating with Sinitsina (but not funding until you earn your spot at the national team). If Zoueva reports that it won't work, we want you to return to Ilynikh (or we will find you another partner), otherwise we will guarantee you that we won't submit your name for any GP event and you won't get any funding in the future because we won't let you get on the national team. Easy!

Also, you wondering why S/K were sent to Zoueva and I/Z are not having the same opportunity - have you considered that perhaps Ruslan and Elena sat down and though about what coach they want. Ruslan may have wanted to stay with his coach, Elena had a good experience with Kustarova because she trained there last year in spring when Morozov traveled to Japan, so she could have said 'fine, let's try, if I don't like it, we can change coach later'. So it could have been I/Z choice to stay in Russia, whereas S/K were sent on trial.

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hanca said:

Well, it could for example be like this:
Katsalapov insisting that he wants to skate with Sinitsina. Federation hoping he will change his mind if he realises how much work is involved (that they would have to start from the beginning). So the Federation could have said - OK, this is the deal: you go with Sinitsina to Zoueva, (you pay for it because we can't fund you at the moment), you spend there three weeks and after those three weeks Zoueva will send us a report. If Zoueva will report that the partnership may have potentially a future, we will give you approval for skating with Sinitsina (but not funding until you earn your spot at the national team). If Zoueva reports that it won't work, we want you to return to Ilynikh (or we will find you another partner), otherwise we will guarantee you that we won't submit your name for any GP event and you won't get any funding in the future because we won't let you get on the national team. Easy!

Also, you wondering why S/K were sent to Zoueva and I/Z are not having the same opportunity - have you considered that perhaps Ruslan and Elena sat down and though about what coach they want. Ruslan may have wanted to stay with his coach, Elena had a good experience with Kustarova because she trained there last year in spring when Morozov traveled to Japan, so she could have said 'fine, let's try, if I don't like it, we can change coach later'. So it could have been I/Z choice to stay in Russia, whereas S/K were sent on trial.

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sisinka said:

Yes, this would be OK, I hope that people from Federation have the same way of thinking.

I prefer I&Z's style to stay at home - I refuse to think that Zueva is the only one who can say whether skaters have potential, it can do anyboody from top Russian coaches in Russia, there is no reason why to come to US and for three weeks to see whether they are compatible. Kustarova is great choice - and it would be much better to send BOTH teams to her for tryouts and then decide (and tryouts could last few days only). And there is already first problem, while I&Z will be judged by whole Federation and by everybody who will come to practise in Moscow and their progress will be under control from the first week, S&K will be judges firstly by Zueva (after three weeks of work + those tryouts before the whole world discovered that they are a new couple), and believe me that she will talk in superlatives, so her words will look stronger than those words Kustarova said, in the same moment Zueva will be no idea how is I&Z, so no comparison here), than S&K will be judges by specialists who will be already influnced by Zueva's words. If Russian Federation really wanted some tryout period for only looking for compatibility, working ethic and speed of learning new elements...than make those couple separate and give them different possibilities is not the most wise. And if this is just tryout and Nikita persist on Zueva and Federation agreed, so why not immediately from the beginning listen to Nikita in everything and making this team official, when Nikita wants it. How do you want to control training process and watch progress in couple when they are three weeks off...and Zueva knows her job very well, but she has their own motives to support promising couple and no possibility to compare with I&Z, and right now even no possibility to compare with another top Russian couples. So, already from the beginning this is far to objective to make any wise conclusion. Why Russian Federation just couldn't put both new couples on one place with one coach for three days, with three practises per day...and then just decide - yes, no...and let people work and prepare for next season?

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sisinka said:

I refuse to think that Zueva is the only one who can say whether skaters have potential, it can do anybody from top Russian coaches in Russia, there is no reason why to come to US and for three weeks to see whether they are compatible.

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And there is already first problem, while I&Z will be judged by whole Federation and by everybody who will come to practise in Moscow and their progress will be under control from the first week, S&K will be judges firstly by Zueva (after three weeks of work + those tryouts before the whole world discovered that they are a new couple), and believe me that she will talk in superlatives, so her words will look stronger than those words Kustarova said, in the same moment Zueva will be no idea how is I&Z, so no comparison here), than S&K will be judges by specialists who will be already influnced by Zueva's words.

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Alba said:

You can't have equal chances for everybody though. I mean the Fed will always give more support to the couple that they judge as the better couple, more talented etc.

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