Elena Ilinykh & Nikita Katsalapov Split | Page 134 | Golden Skate

Elena Ilinykh & Nikita Katsalapov Split

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Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
I like B&S. I think they are a team that are better live than on a television screen. I was not a fan of theirs but seeing them at Skate America 2012 changed my mind. I didn't like their programs last year, but at least they try to do something different.
 

anyanka

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 8, 2011
I like B&S. I think they are a team that are better live than on a television screen. I was not a fan of theirs but seeing them at Skate America 2012 changed my mind. I didn't like their programs last year, but at least they try to do something different.

I hear ya. :)
And perhaps their presence just doesn't translate as well on screen?
I'm hoping to get to either SA or SC this fall, maybe I'll see them there and change my mind if they don't just get COC and COR for their GP assignments!
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Vanilla is a nice, safe ice cream flavor.
We don't hate it, we just don't think it's our favorite.
B/S = vanilla
Perfectly pleasant, but nothing to write home about when there are so many other flavors on the menu.

This forum is mainly for figure skating fans, being fan is mostly about liking / not liking and it often doesn't have much to do with figure skating qualities. It's OK, fans can behave like that.

1) B&S are one of the fastest couples in current ice dancing. Do you call high speed a "safe" thing?

2) The couple always had a very difficult choreography, under Kustarova in past years some of programs were even overchoreographed (which was not good of course). Having millions of moves and big difficulty in whole program is called "safe"?

3) B&S skate in close holds more than any other team, it was very visible especially in this season SD. And we all know that close holds are more difficult than open holds. Doing more difficult holds which are also more risky (because in close holds you can make mistake, loose control and speed more easily) is called "safe"?

But maybe you meant B&S being safe and pleasant in presentation....

4) B&S came with very original concepts in past two years – Psycho and Birds. Under Kustarova in recent years there were Chess SD in 2010/11 season, Sailor's Dance SD in 2009/10 season. All those dances (and not only those) made a disccusion in the time the couple presented them, somebody liked it, somebody not. Especially last two FD programs made an explosion in figure skating world. No matter if you like or not like those dances, how can you call it "safe"?

5) B&S are known for big drama and an expresiveness in their programs...do you mean drama = expressiveness mean "safe" way of skating?

6) During past seasons B&S skated to classical music like Bach, Vivaldi, Adagio, but they also took Romeo & Juliette in modern version, Morricone, Artsakh – an Armenian Dance, Walpurgis Night. They skated to music without any certain story, or they had a romantic story (White Night’s), they skated to big drama (Walpurgis Night, R&J, Chess or Birds), or to psychological drama (Psycho). They had serious dances, but they were also a little bit funny in Sailor’s Dance, Katya was cute and innocent in Polka‘s SD. Do you really mean that their programs were “safe“ choices?
I don’t say that every picture in every program was successfull, it was not. But most of dances was expressed on a good, very good or great level. And the couple really tried to push themselves into new images and attemps to improve their skating and dancing. While some other dancers fell into their typical style and repeated it again and again – but this is not pushing the level of dancer up.
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
I'm looking forward to this Carmen fest. God knows I'll probably be sick of it by the end of the season, but every team has its own interpretation of Carmen, each one brings something of their own into it, so I'm reaaaally looking forward to see each and every interpretation, at least once :)

Interesting point...:)

I don't think that Carmen in SD should hurt people so much. All of you are describing Carmen in past years, especially Krylova and Bestemianova were fantastic. Also Navka and Tessa were great. And Cappellini also did Carmen (less powerful and dynamic, much more mild in my eyes, but I loved the costumes and choreography).

What you all describe is Carmen like FD which means that every woman was Carmen and every man was Don Jose or Escamillo – so it was a story of Carmen.
But in our case two couples chose Carmen for SD...and SD is about Flamenco / Paso Doble, so not the story but a ballroom dance on the first place. If the couple will include something from Carmen's story, why not, but this SDs must be about ballroom dances taken to the ice firstly. And this is essential.

I don't know more about B&S choreography yet, but I&Z chose Navarro whose works for Annissina, Pechalat, Lambiel were great. (Navarro didn't do choreography only, looking at way those skaters presented the dance, he also worked with them to understand what is Spanish music about and how to express it well, all those skaters mentioned above were great in it.) And using Carmen which will be adapted to faster Paso Doble rhythm (like Kustarova mentioned in interview) with typical Spanish / Flamenco movements (you couldn't see that in dances of Krylova, Bestemianova, Navka, Cappellini or Tessa, because all those were concentrated on the story only), I really don't expect an ordinary dance with love story being the main thing....if it would happen, then it wouldn't keep the SD's requirements for ballroom dance and it would be a mistake.
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Ekaterina has dyed her hair for the role
Also Navka was blonde and won the OGM with it (Kostomarov happened to be on the ice as well, but we all know that Navka won the OGM for them both.

fleeting said:
Also, Ekaterina did dye her hair for the role, but it looks more auburn/red than the typical brown or black:
http://instagram.com/p/pDmHxbhnRs/

Flamenco (you need dark hair):
: Tanith Belbin – blond
: Marina Annissina – red
: Kaitlyn Weaver – blond

Carmen (you need dark hair):
: Tatiana Navka – blond
: Natalia Bestemianova – red

Gypsy Dance (you need dark hair):
: Tanith Belbin – blond

Arabian dance (you need dark hair):
: Oksana Grishuk – blond
: Marina Annissina – red
: Tatiana Navka - blond

Scheherezade + Indian Disco dance + Quasimodo in Esmeralda – every character dictated Charlie to have dark hair…and he stayed blond.

Even Carolina Kostner didn’t dye her hair for Geisha or Scheherezade story.

Where is the problem than? :)
 

anyanka

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 8, 2011
This forum is mainly for figure skating fans, being fan is mostly about liking / not liking and it often doesn't have much to do with figure skating qualities. It's OK, fans can behave like that.

1) B&S are one of the fastest couples in current ice dancing. Do you call high speed a "safe" thing?

2) The couple always had a very difficult choreography, under Kustarova in past years some of programs were even overchoreographed (which was not good of course). Having millions of moves and big difficulty in whole program is called "safe"?

3) B&S skate in close holds more than any other team, it was very visible especially in this season SD. And we all know that close holds are more difficult than open holds. Doing more difficult holds which are also more risky (because in close holds you can make mistake, loose control and speed more easily) is called "safe"?

But maybe you meant B&S being safe and pleasant in presentation....

4) B&S came with very original concepts in past two years – Psycho and Birds. Under Kustarova in recent years there were Chess SD in 2010/11 season, Sailor's Dance SD in 2009/10 season. All those dances (and not only those) made a disccusion in the time the couple presented them, somebody liked it, somebody not. Especially last two FD programs made an explosion in figure skating world. No matter if you like or not like those dances, how can you call it "safe"?

5) B&S are known for big drama and an expresiveness in their programs...do you mean drama = expressiveness mean "safe" way of skating?

6) During past seasons B&S skated to classical music like Bach, Vivaldi, Adagio, but they also took Romeo & Juliette in modern version, Morricone, Artsakh – an Armenian Dance, Walpurgis Night. They skated to music without any certain story, or they had a romantic story (White Night’s), they skated to big drama (Walpurgis Night, R&J, Chess or Birds), or to psychological drama (Psycho). They had serious dances, but they were also a little bit funny in Sailor’s Dance, Katya was cute and innocent in Polka‘s SD. Do you really mean that their programs were “safe“ choices?
I don’t say that every picture in every program was successfull, it was not. But most of dances was expressed on a good, very good or great level. And the couple really tried to push themselves into new images and attemps to improve their skating and dancing. While some other dancers fell into their typical style and repeated it again and again – but this is not pushing the level of dancer up.

1) A lot of other teams are fast as well. Across the board, it's a given.

2) I don't think the choreography is that interesting. Again, an aesthetic thing.

3) I do agree that their close holds are very good, mostly in their SDs. I did enjoy this season's SD very much.

4) Doesn't matter the presentation to me. They're unorthodox choices, for sure. I just don't think that the way they deliver the concept is striking, no matter how high-concept the theme.

5) Their drama and expressiveness, for me, is just a bit flat. Although I liked how they presented their FD in Sochi, she was very much into it.

6) They have range but for me it's not just not aesthetically pleasing.

Overall, they're a "safe" choice in that they lack a certain x-factor, for me. I'm not alone on this, but I'm sure you and their fans disagree. They're not bad skaters by any means - they're quite accomplished, I think! - but they're just not distinctive. For me, there's no true star quality that makes them truly exciting to watch. I like that they do try to push themselves, but they don't stand out for me the way certain other star couples do.

sisinka - and other fans here - I must say I like and respect how you've stuck up for and defended B/S. For me they're not the most exciting pair by any means, but I like the thought process you've given to this. It shows a real appreciation for them that I may not have. I enjoy our debate on this! :)
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
I don't think that Carmen in SD should hurt people so much. All of you are describing Carmen in past years, especially Krylova and Bestemianova were fantastic.

Personally I'm not describing any Carmen. I just hate the choice of the music. Sick and tired with it, so I'm hoping on the choreography to relieve the "pain". :p

Anyway, Krylova's Carmen fantastic? Since when Carmen is a woman escaped from a psychiatric hospital?:slink:
 

anyanka

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 8, 2011
Flamenco (you need dark hair):
: Tanith Belbin – blond
: Marina Annissina – red
: Kaitlyn Weaver – blond

Carmen (you need dark hair):
: Tatiana Navka – blond
: Natalia Bestemianova – red

Gypsy Dance (you need dark hair):
: Tanith Belbin – blond

Arabian dance (you need dark hair):
: Oksana Grishuk – blond
: Marina Annissina – red
: Tatiana Navka - blond

Scheherezade + Indian Disco dance + Quasimodo in Esmeralda – every character dictated Charlie to have dark hair…and he stayed blond.

Even Carolina Kostner didn’t dye her hair for Geisha or Scheherezade story.

Where is the problem than? :)

Agreed. Thematically they can put their own spin on it. Domnina dyed her hair dark for 2009's wonderful Spartacus number but went blonde the year before and after. It was her own spin on the concept and image for that particular piece.

And Navka skated one of my fave Carmens to date in 2006 and she was definitely blonde for it, and Natalia B's flaming red suited her well for that number.
 

bsfan

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 10, 2011
Thank Sisinka and Alba for replying. It just can't convince to me that I/Z are better( or equal to) than S/K at this point, although I hope they are better. Why TAT didn't like S/Z? any details? Does she like their coaches? Z?
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Thank Sisinka and Alba for replying. It just can't convince to me that I/Z are better( or equal to) than S/K at this point, although I hope they are better. Why TAT didn't like S/Z? any details? Does she like their coaches? Z?

She has not seen them yet. They were first on vacation and now in Latvia training, but she loves Zueva apparently.
When asked do you belive in S&K her reply was: I belive in Zueva. ;)

According to sisinka though she never liked S&Z.
 

anyanka

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 8, 2011
Thank Sisinka and Alba for replying. It just can't convince to me that I/Z are better( or equal to) than S/K at this point, although I hope they are better. Why TAT didn't like S/Z? any details? Does she like their coaches? Z?

You've brought up an excellent point: how at this point can someone be so sure that I/Z or S/K are better (or equal to) already? It's certainly a valid point. Four years ago in pairs (yes discipline is different but analogous), we weren't sure if V/T were better than K/S until they debuted powerfully at Russian nationals. For all of the raw talent assembled, we're not sure if I/Z or S/K right now are competitive in terms of assembled talent, and also have the team energy and collective strength of mind to handle the intensity of competition. I do look forward to seeing how these three teams play it out ...
 

bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
Nothing will be proven until they take the ice. However, S/K have one major trump card that I/Z don't have Zueva. However, looking at the skaters individually the two that impress me the most are I/Z. Artistic, technically sound and reliable. Gosh when I watch Lena in their Don Quixote, I cringe at how her talents were wasted when she left Zhulin. If you look back at S/Z soberly (even their polka SD), Ruslan is the star, no doubt about it. He has touch, expression, control and passion. So regardless of how they do against each other, I want I/Z to get a fair shake by their team. They are really good skaters as well.
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Overall, they're a "safe" choice in that they lack a certain x-factor, for me. I'm not alone on this, but I'm sure you and their fans disagree. They're not bad skaters by any means - they're quite accomplished, I think! - but they're just not distinctive. For me, there's no true star quality that makes them truly exciting to watch. I like that they do try to push themselves, but they don't stand out for me the way certain other star couples do.

sisinka - and other fans here - I must say I like and respect how you've stuck up for and defended B/S. For me they're not the most exciting pair by any means, but I like the thought process you've given to this. It shows a real appreciation for them that I may not have. I enjoy our debate on this! :)

Thanks for opinion.

Here is where the problem starts…if people appreciate x-factor or star quality or skating quality or dancing quality. I must say that I was used to see everything in top couples until the end of last decade. With changement of new judging system, dancing and deep edges slowly dissapear and other more athletic and less dancy things come on the first place. I can’t get used to it, so when I see somebody who looks to have some real skating / dancing qualities like past top dancers had, I simply appreciate it.

To x-factor, I know that it is very important for figure skating fans…and entertainment as well. But frankly Nora Hoffmann had bigger x-factor than Meryl or Madison Chock, why it was not enough than? Nora finished not higher than in top 8 at European Champs. For me Nora was decent in Skating Skills, and not variable in dancing despite her big passionate and wild character, so I was quite OK with her placement, but looking at x-factor and star quality, she should be definitely higher. So I really doubt how much star quality or x-factor should be included into marking and results. But for skating fans, it is essential, I know.
 

anyanka

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 8, 2011
Thanks for opinion.

Here is where the problem starts…if people appreciate x-factor or star quality or skating quality or dancing quality. I must say that I was used to see everything in top couples until the end of last decade. With changement of new judging system, dancing and deep edges slowly dissapear and other more athletic and less dancy things come on the first place. I can’t get used to it, so when I see somebody who looks to have some real skating / dancing qualities like past top dancers had, I simply appreciate it.

To x-factor, I know that it is very important for figure skating fans…and entertainment as well. But frankly Nora Hoffmann had bigger x-factor than Meryl or Madison Chock, why it was not enough than? Nora finished not higher than in top 8 at European Champs. For me Nora was decent in Skating Skills, and not variable in dancing despite her big passionate and wild character, so I was quite OK with her placement, but looking at x-factor and star quality, she should be definitely higher. So I really doubt how much star quality or x-factor should be included into marking and results. But for skating fans, it is essential, I know.

Another good point ... it is almost completely subjective. But the way I think of it is: when a competition is over, whose programs would I repeat watching on YouTube? I appreciate the close holds and technicality of some skaters, but if I don't find them "watchable", then I don't repeat. That for me is the difference between B&S and others.

But then again, there is no such thing as "watchable" or "x-factor" points awarded under the judging system. Which is why although I am not as passionate about certain teams, I can understand why they would perform well. They may not be the pinnacle or the very top all the time, but they'll certainly be more than in the mix and still contend for the title. All things being equal and everyone skates lights-out, then the least memorable of the bunch fall further down the rankings unless those who are neck-and-neck with them make critical errors and lose valuable points.

Not to belabor the point much more, but let's return to the original topic of I/K's split ... I hope for good things out of all teams mentioned here. If they all push and challenge one another, it will advance ice dancing.
 

sisinka

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 25, 2006
Thank Sisinka and Alba for replying. It just can't convince to me that I/Z are better( or equal to) than S/K at this point, although I hope they are better. Why TAT didn't like S/Z? any details? Does she like their coaches? Z?

She never told openly that she would dislike Ruslan or Victoria. Some people say that Kustarova / Alexeeva / Riabinina are in good terms with her, so who knows. But her critical attitude to Victoria & Ruslan while in the same moment she was praising Ivan Bukin was quite strange. Stepanova & Bukin finished 6th at Nationals this year. Personally looking at SD and FD at Nationals I would change some placements in top 6 there, but still S&B would lay on 5th or 6th place. Frankly until this season S&B are young and promising team who just came from juniors, but all other five Russian couples (B&S, I&K, S&Z, R&T and M&K) are a lot better in presentation, also better in skating skills, plus all those teams are more mature that S&B. Why Tarasova criticized S&Z and wanted to send Bukin at World Champs...it is good question but I don't have any logical or professional answer for it. :scratch:

But last year Tarasova almost looked to hate Konstantin Menshov who stood between Kovtun and European Champs... until this moment I can't get rid of an opinion that kicking Menshov out of European Team was unofficially mainly her work. And her notices about Menshov's age and no perspectives were really not on place. Why? For Kovtun? For something else? Only God knows.
 

bramweld

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2012
She never told openly that she would dislike Ruslan or Victoria. Some people say that Kustarova / Alexeeva / Riabinina are in good terms with her, so who knows. But her critical attitude to Victoria & Ruslan while in the same moment she was praising Ivan Bukin was quite strange. Stepanova & Bukin finished 6th at Nationals this year. Personally looking at SD and FD at Nationals I would change some placements in top 6 there, but still S&B would lay on 5th or 6th place. Frankly until this season S&B are young and promising team who just came from juniors, but all other five Russian couples (B&S, I&K, S&Z, R&T and M&K) are a lot better in presentation, also better in skating skills, plus all those teams are more mature that S&B. Why Tarasova criticized S&Z and wanted to send Bukin at World Champs...it is good question but I don't have any logical or professional answer for it. :scratch:

But last year Tarasova almost looked to hate Konstantin Menshov who stood between Kovtun and European Champs... until this moment I can't get rid of an opinion that kicking Menshov out of European Team was unofficially mainly her work. And her notices about Menshov's age and no perspectives were really not on place. Why? For Kovtun? For something else? Only God knows.

TAT is just a woman of very strange contradictions. Although in my unprofessional opinion TAT got wind of Nik and Vika's plans and she's been outraged ever since.

Well Russia had better pull it together because competition is going to be fierce next year. What do you guys think about Jean-Luc Baker? IMHO, he and others are going to give Marina and company a run for their money, granted Kaitlyn can maintain her current form. The man can dance and manage his technique, :popcorn:
 

Abraxis12345

Final Flight
Joined
Apr 18, 2014
Alexeeva is TAT's former assistant in the 80s. When TAT started to focus more on shows, Alexeeva inherited the group so no bad blood there.
 

TheGothicEme

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 30, 2013
I love that you use insanity and birds that way. :p
But point well taken - it's a matter of taste, at least for me.
I was referring to their presence on ice, not the content of their program.
how very funny, "at least for me". can you find over 10 others agree with you? guess not.
ok, so the programmes are nice but they are not, so can you find any other pairs can skate those programmes and be as good as them? Guess not (yet again)
 
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