Elena Ilinykh & Nikita Katsalapov Split

TheGrandSophy · Apr 16, 2014

BlackPack said:
Honestly, the judges didn't know what to do with DW and VM gone. Thus the aberrations. I think they'll have a clearer idea next season, but there won't be a consensus. It's time for the coaches and Federations to do major politicking for all the respective top 5 teams who all have a shot.

Now, this is where, as a newbie to watching FS so closely, I am agog and aghast (and whatever else Grantaire would like to add

). I mean, I've always gathered that politics is part of it and often too big and so corruption allegations and even charges have occurred. However, I keep seeing references to politicking in an approving way as if that is important and I'm confused. Do people want it to be a procession?

As a little girl I watched FS in the 6.0 era and all of it, but especially ice dance, seemed processional with couples having to take their turns until others retired only to then move up the ranks. It frustrated me because it seemed obviously staged and I couldn't understand how some couples surely must skate better or worse than others sometimes, being worthy of being higher or lower sometimes, but this was rarely ever seen in the results.

Now, there does seem a little more movement, but I keep hearing references to coaches and national federations politicking for their couples and couples establishing their reputation and position in the minds of judges for the coming season. But that is one of the things that put people off FS! They want it to be a surprise. They want it to be more like others sports where one week one person / couple wins and then there is an upset next week. They don't want processions! However, it seems that this aspect of FS is prized as essential by a lot of you. Is this grudging, as in we know it happens so god be with my faves? Or is it actually liked? Help a confused newbie out.

BlackPack · Apr 16, 2014

TheGrandSophy said:
Now, this is where, as a newbie to watching FS so closely, I am agog and aghast (and whatever else Grantaire would like to add ). I mean, I've always gathered that politics is part of it and often too big and so corruption allegations and even charges have occurred. However, I keep seeing references to politicking in an approving way as if that is important and I'm confused. Do people want it to be a procession?

As a little girl I watched FS in the 6.0 era and all of it, but especially ice dance, seemed processional with couples having to take their turns until others retired only to then move up the ranks. It frustrated me because it seemed obviously staged and I couldn't understand how some couples surely must skate better or worse than others sometimes, being worthy of being higher or lower sometimes, but this was rarely ever seen in the results.

Now, there does seem a little more movement, but I keep hearing references to coaches politicking for their couples and couples establishing their reputation and position in the minds of judges for the coming season. But that is one of the things that put people off FS! Thwey want it to be a surprise. They want it to be more like others sports where one week one person / couple wins and then there is an upset next week. They don't want processions! However, it seems that this aspect of FS is prized as essential by a lot of you. Is this grudging, as in we know it happens so god be with my faves? Or is it actually liked? Help a confused newbie out.

I guess that kind of "tolerance" of corruption varies from person to person. Some people deny it but some see it as a necessary evil. This largely happens because there are judges in FS and judging in FS is largely subjective, especially with ice dance. It's not really a "positive" thing ethically, but being naive and "pure" can be costly. A coach with no political clout can't contest deductions or be given good advice when receiving feedback from the panel or receiving help from the Federations.

BlackPack · Apr 16, 2014

nimi said:
^ As much as I wanted P/B to win, they did make a glaring error in the Finnstep whereas the top 2 teams skated both programs without such mistakes. I got the feeling that the actual performances mattered and that the outcome was in no way predetermined, which was refreshing. (I'm a fan of skating, not lobbying and politicking.)

Well, I think the judges made up their mind to give the World title to I&K. When I&K bombed, they didn't know what to do. I think 5th after the SD for I&K was generous; 8th place would have been more fair. Indeed, C&L deserved 1st place in the SD, while W&P should definitely have won overall on the strength of their tango. The judges don't seem to have an idea how their scores worked against their plan. They couldn't even give I&K a bronze. B&S withdrawing also confused them.

If the judges knew what they were doing, you wouldn't have a couple finish 1st in the SD, then 4th in the FD to win overall. They would have concocted some excuse to prop or demote someone for a particular medal.

it would have been W&P, not C&L.

TheGrandSophy · Apr 16, 2014

BlackPack said:
I guess that kind of "tolerance" of corruption varies from person to person. Some people deny it but some see it as a necessary evil. This largely happens because there are judges in FS and judging in FS is largely subjective, especially with ice dance. It's not really a "positive" thing ethically, but being naive and "pure" can be costly. A coach with no political clout can't contest deductions or be given good advice when receiving feedback from the panel or receiving help from the Federations.

Hmm, interesting. So, (and I realise that this would be hard to enforce) why are judges allowed to help, advise and instruct federations at all? Why are they not just... judges? Couldn't they have, I don't know, like an advisory panel that is wholly separate to the judges and judges are not allowed contact with coaches / federations? In theory, anyway?

Meoima · Apr 16, 2014

Pippuripihvi said:
This topic is a juicy A++ goldenskate forum drama. It feels to me that people are trying to compensate for the lack of the news since the season is over. And the way rumours are spread.. that's just really insane. None of us knows what happened, but yet people are choosing sides. The only victim here is the rusfed skating federation. But they'll get over it, because compared to the situation back in 2010, now it's all rise and shine for them.
At this moment everyone should just thank russian skaters for bringing so much things to talk about.

Off season talk: :biggrin:

"What'll we do with ourselves this afternoon?" cried Daisy, "and the day after that, and the next thirty years?"
"Don't be morbid," Jordan said. "Life starts all over again when it gets crisp in the fall."

I am so surprised the Great Gastby can be applied in this case. :popcorn:

BlackPack · Apr 16, 2014

TheGrandSophy said:
Hmm, interesting. So, (and I realise that this would be hard to enforce) why are judges allowed to help, advise and instruct federations at all? Why are they not just... judges? Couldn't they have, I don't know, like an advisory panel that is wholly separate to the judges and judges are not allowed contact with coaches / federations? In theory, anyway?

It's a small community. Some judges were former skaters/competitors themselves. Maybe they were close with someone who's coaching a major contender.

nimi · Apr 16, 2014

@TheGrandSophy: There are many threads here concerning Sochi ladies' event judging scandal, South Korea filing an official complaint because of the said scandal, a recent petition to remove Cinquanta from the ISU leadership position etc.
Subjects like these attract trolls and vicious ad hominem -attacks so I don't know if I can RECOMMEND browsing through those threads, but if you are really curious about politicking and judging and how it is perceived/justified/questioned in these parts... Good luck!

BlackPack · Apr 16, 2014

Regarding TheGrandSophy's concerns about lobbying and politicking, this doesn't always mean rigging the results, choosing predetermined winners, or making deals. It simply means showing support to skaters who otherwise don't yet have the backing of judges and the cushion for errors. Showing support, interest, and investment of time and energy from the Federations. If Judge X is having coffee with Federation rep talking about Trixie Schuba's hair from the 70s, Fed. Rep. can mention and show interest in Skater X. That alone gives that Skater X advantage.

Ryan O · Apr 16, 2014

BlackPack said:
Well, I think the judges made up their mind to give the World title to I&K. When I&K bombed, they didn't know what to do. I think 5th after the SD for I&K was generous; 8th place would have been more fair. Indeed, C&L deserved 1st place in the SD, while W&P should definitely have won overall on the strength of their tango. The judges don't seem to have an idea how their scores worked against their plan. They couldn't even give I&K a bronze. B&S withdrawing also confused them.

If the judges knew what they were doing, you wouldn't have a couple finish 1st in the SD, then 4th in the FD to win overall. They would have concocted some excuse to prop or demote someone for a particular medal.

it would have been W&P, not C&L.

I don't know if there was that much advanced planning by the judges. There probably was a bias in favour of I&K (which we saw in the very high PCS in the SD despite the twizzle wipe-out), but some of the judging may have been as a result of having the top 2 dance teams absent after so many years. With V&M and D&W gone, it makes sense that it was hard to determine who the top team was. In the past 4 seasons, V&M and D&W had a lock on the top 2 spots, and it was everyone else fighting for the bronze.

This year was the first time in years that ALL the podium spots became open, particularly with B&S withdrawing, and then I&K messing up the SD. The fact that I&K placed 1st in the FD and so high in PCS in the SD does back up your contention that they may have been favoured. Part of that may be because they were the only medalists from the Olympics who went to Sochi. But some of the close results between positions 1-4 (scores all between 175-174) may also just be a reflection of what happens when you have a field of teams that are close in ability when you remove gold and silver medalists (D&W and V&M).

Alba · Apr 16, 2014

BlackPack said:
Indeed, C&L deserved 1st place in the SD, while W&P should definitely have won overall on the strength of their tango.

:thumbsup:

sisinka · Apr 16, 2014

Alba said:
Me too, and that's why I'm afraid and hoping I misunderstood. :disapp:
This is an absolute crap! They can not wait to see if the S&K works, it's not their business anymore. Elena and Ruslan are done with their previous partners.
Why is the Fed "punishing" these two by letting them in a limbo?

http://rsport.ru/interview/20140416/743096275.html
An interview with Bobrova & Soloviev, they are going to start creating new programs this week. Great idea.

…sorry for Lena and Ruslan and Victoria and Nikita…they still don’t know if a Russian Federation will allow them to stay together??? Russian Federation should ask Zueva - not if Victoria and Nikita are compatible, but they should aks her in what time is it ideal to creat new programs…and they should also ask her what can happen if a new born couple starts to practise two new programs in June…maybe Russian Federation would be shocked with Zueva’s answers and they would hurry their decisions.

As to Kustarova’s comments about word’s of head coach, I think that it is a very modest and maybe too modest citation. All team is waiting for final Nikita/Victoria/Federation‘s decision to be able to start with all preparations for next season on 100%. But with such strange behaviour from Russian Federation nobody knows what to expect….

I am sure that Zueva will come with superlatives for S&K, there is no reason why she should be not optimistic, it will help her too…she can gain a new promising team who will be best skilled in Canton (with Tessa and Scott out). And she is a smart woman she is sure that Russian Federation with such behaviour really wants to creat a new team, if they didn’t want to, they wouldn’t put such energy into sending S&K to her.

I have one question…who arranged this vacations with Zueva? Nikita? But he wanted Morozov. So, Russian Federation, yes? And that is my question…Both Lena & Ruslan and Victoria & Nikita live in vacuum – they are not in their previous teams no more, but still they are not in a new team, because oficially Russian Federation didn’t confirm them. Is it possible for Russian Federation to make an international trade with tryout of a couple who “doesn’t exist“? With confirmation in media, Russian Federation made from S&K's travel to Detroit an oficial thing with Federation's agreement/arrangement...but a couple is not ificially confirmed and does not exist. Is it legal? Lena being young girl came to Zueva/Sphilband but it was her own business for her own money, nothing with Federation. Did Victoria & Nikita asked Zueva for help? It could be possible…but wait, it looks like a nonsense, if kids would really asked her for a help, they would go to her after confirmation about new couple from Russian Federation, not before it. If Zueva talks about three weeks test to look for compatibility, it looks much more like Russian Federation’s wish to know what Zueva thinks. But how can Russian Federation send non existing couple abroad? And for what money? Victoria & Nikita’s money (more precisely their parents?)? Or for Russian Federation’s money? But Mutko refused financial support to anyone who is not in National Team.

Ryan O · Apr 16, 2014

It would be interesting to see Marina coaching a Russian team again. She's become so well-known for coaching North American teams in the Virtue/Moir and Davis/White era that it seems like a long time since she has coached a high-profile Russian team!

You mentioned the parents of these skaters. Do they come from wealthy families who have the money to pay for their children's skating independent of the Russian Federation?

Alba · Apr 16, 2014

sisinka said:
http://rsport.ru/interview/20140416/743096275.html
An interview with Bobrova & Soloviev, they are going to start creating new programs this week. Great idea.

…sorry for Lena and Ruslan and Victoria and Nikita…they still don’t know if a Russian Federation will allow them to stay together??? Russian Federation should ask Zueva - not if Victoria and Nikita are compatible, but they should aks her in what time is it ideal to creat new programs…and they should also ask her what can happen if a new born couple starts to practise two new programs in June…maybe Russian Federation would be shocked with Zueva’s answers and they would hurry their decisions.

As to Kustarova’s comments about word’s of head coach, I think that it is a very modest and maybe too modest citation. All team is waiting for final Nikita/Victoria/Federation‘s decision to be able to start with all preparations for next season on 100%. But with such strange behaviour from Russian Federation nobody knows what to expect….

I am sure that Zueva will come with superlatives for S&K, there is no reason why she should be not optimistic, it will help her too…she can gain a new promising team who will be best skilled in Canton (with Tessa and Scott out). And she is a smart woman she is sure that Russian Federation with such behaviour really wants to creat a new team, if they didn’t want to, they wouldn’t put such energy into sending S&K to her.

I have one question…who arranged this vacations with Zueva? Nikita? But he wanted Morozov. So, Russian Federation, yes? And that is my question…Both Lena & Ruslan and Victoria & Nikita live in vacuum – they are not in their previous teams no more, but still they are not in a new team, because oficially Russian Federation didn’t confirm them. Is it possible for Russian Federation to make an international trade with tryout of a couple who “doesn’t exist“? With confirmation in media, Russian Federation made from S&K's travel to Detroit an oficial thing with Federation's agreement/arrangement...but a couple is not ificially confirmed and does not exist. Is it legal? Lena being young girl came to Zueva/Sphilband but it was her own business for her own money, nothing with Federation. Did Victoria & Nikita asked Zueva for help? It could be possible…but wait, it looks like a nonsense, if kids would really asked her for a help, they would go to her after confirmation about new couple from Russian Federation, not before it. If Zueva talks about three weeks test to look for compatibility, it looks much more like Russian Federation’s wish to know what Zueva thinks. But how can Russian Federation send non existing couple abroad? And for what money? Victoria & Nikita’s money (more precisely their parents?)? Or for Russian Federation’s money? But Mutko refused financial support to anyone who is not in National Team.

I'm speculating of course, but the impression I have is that Nikita wanted Morzov. The Russian fed tried to convince Nikita to not split with Elena and after they failed to do so put one condition to Nikita, if he still wanted the split he should not work with Morozov. So maybe Zueva was his suggestion or Rus Fed.
About the money, either the Rus Fed is paying no matter what Mutko is saying or Nikita and Victoria is, just for this period.

Nevertheless, It's not fair for Elena and Ruslan to be waiting for the Rus Fed. decision. They should be working on their new program, if they've already decided that they want to skate together.

Ryan O · Apr 16, 2014

Alba said:
Nevertheless, It's not fair for Elena and Ruslan to be waiting for the Rus Fed. decision. They should be working on their new program, if they've already decided that they want to skate together.

Yes, although I guess the rules allow for the Federation to have final authority on whether they sign off on a new partnership.

hanca · Apr 16, 2014

sisinka said:
http://rsport.ru/interview/20140416/743096275.html

I am sure that Zueva will come with superlatives for S&K, there is no reason why she should be not optimistic, it will help her too…she can gain a new promising team who will be best skilled in Canton (with Tessa and Scott out). And she is a smart woman she is sure that Russian Federation with such behaviour really wants to creat a new team, if they didn’t want to, they wouldn’t put such energy into sending S&K to her.

I have one question…who arranged this vacations with Zueva? Nikita? But he wanted Morozov. So, Russian Federation, yes? And that is my question…Both Lena & Ruslan and Victoria & Nikita live in vacuum – they are not in their previous teams no more, but still they are not in a new team, because oficially Russian Federation didn’t confirm them. Is it possible for Russian Federation to make an international trade with tryout of a couple who “doesn’t exist“? With confirmation in media, Russian Federation made from S&K's travel to Detroit an oficial thing with Federation's agreement/arrangement...but a couple is not ificially confirmed and does not exist. Is it legal? Lena being young girl came to Zueva/Sphilband but it was her own business for her own money, nothing with Federation. Did Victoria & Nikita asked Zueva for help? It could be possible…but wait, it looks like a nonsense, if kids would really asked her for a help, they would go to her after confirmation about new couple from Russian Federation, not before it. If Zueva talks about three weeks test to look for compatibility, it looks much more like Russian Federation’s wish to know what Zueva thinks. But how can Russian Federation send non existing couple abroad? And for what money? Victoria & Nikita’s money (more precisely their parents?)? Or for Russian Federation’s money? But Mutko refused financial support to anyone who is not in National Team.

My understanding is (I read it somehwre here or on the other forum) that after worlds Elena and Nikita were supposed to go to train to Zoueva, so maybe the Federation decided that the new pair (not officially confirmed pair) should go there to see how it goes. I can't see why it shouldn't be legal that Victoria and Nikita went to Zoueva. If I wanted to go to Zoueva (and had a partner) and she took me, that's a contract between me and Zoueva. If Russian Federation decides not approve them, they can refuse to fund them, but there is nothing illegal on a person skating with another person.

I don't know who pays for it, but I am sure the families can afford to pay for their children to train somewhere for 3 weeks. After all, most families pay for their coaches all year round. It is only in several countries that skaters get some funding. Most countries can't afford it and the skaters/their parents pay themselves (sponsors, or parents doing several jobs, or skaters having some part time job e.g. teaching skating classes, or remortgaging house if they have to). Besides, Nikita's family may not be rich, but Nikita for example brought a gold and bronze medal from Sochi and got a car as a reward. If they were really struggling financially, I am sure he could sell the car! But there may not be need for that; he must have some sponsors. Skating is popular in Russia and he brought two medals from Olympics.

Alba · Apr 16, 2014

Ryan O said:
Yes, although I guess the rules allow for the Federation to have final authority on whether they sign off on a new partnership.

That's fine. What I don't understand is are they waiting to see if S&K are suitable before giving the approval to I&Z, or they are also monitoring I&Z? How much time do you need to see if a couple is suitable or not?
If I'm not mistaken I&Z have applied officially to the federation, right?

sisinka · Apr 16, 2014

Ryan O said:
You mentioned the parents of these skaters. Do they come from wealthy families who have the money to pay for their children's skating independent of the Russian Federation?

An official confirmation about financial situation of their parents was never published, so I have no idea. I read somewhere that Nikita's mom said sooner she is against a split, but I don't know whether it was just rumour or not. Another question is whether their parents WANT to pay Zueva - not only for this three weeks but for another at least half year until first competitions and Russian Federation's decision to take them into National Team again. Plus money for living in US, accomodation, ice, skates, costumes, choreography from Zueva, specialists....very very expensive. Averbukh who can probably be one of choreographers for I&Z (he was doing choreo for S&Z in previous years) and Moscow ice with Kustarova, living in home - this is everything much less expensive for I&Z. (And like Artur Werner, a Russian journalist living in Germany, noticed - a ticket for metro in Moscow is much less expensive than ticket for plane).

And if kids want to ask region for help like Mutko suggested like the only chance for them...it will take some time to get money from region (if region will agree, of course)...but they are all from one Moscow region. So, is region ready to sponsor both I&Z and S&K, while it means that for S&K will be needed 3 time bigger dotation thanks to fact where they want to train and with who?

hanca · Apr 16, 2014

Sisinka, please, stop worrying about their money. Do you think that someone who brought two medals from Sochi, gold and bronze, doesn't have any sponsors? Besides, he can always sell the car they got for their medal. I am sure that Nikita would not have financial problems even if the Federation did not fund him for a while.

Ryan O · Apr 16, 2014

Alba said:
That's fine. What I don't understand is are they waiting to see if S&K are suitable before giving the approval to I&Z, or they are also monitoring I&Z? How much time do you need to see if a couple is suitable or not?
If I'm not mistaken I&Z have applied officially to the federation, right?

I think one of the articles said that S&K have applied to be registered as a new partnership, yes? I'm not sure about I&Z. Presumably both partnerships will want to be officially registered as teams soon so that they can be entered into the competition roster for next season.

Some of these delays and roadblocks may have also been to make sure this is what these new teams really want and to make them think it through before cutting the cord for good.

Kitt · Apr 16, 2014

So Marina wins in battle over Morozov with Russian Fed? RF punishing Morozov for influencing Nikita to not skate with Lena anymore because she dumped him?

Either way, Viktoria kept away from the dreaded Morozov's clutches. And Marina gets a new couple - WIN WIN.

Elena Ilinykh & Nikita Katsalapov Split

TheGrandSophy

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Meoima

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