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Thread: Elena Ilinykh & Nikita Katsalapov Split

  1. #1066
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    I don't think it works like that. Russian Federation invested in them for all those years, not only the last year when they brought a few medals. The Federation invested in them even those years when they were not successful, it is a long term project and as such it is not repaid by a few medals. If you imagine how much would have been spent in their training costs, hiring some extra specialists such as acrobats or dancers, massages, physio etc, it sounds a bit naive to claim that the medals repaid it. That would be the most expensive medals in the history!
    I gave an idea how could be Nikita thinking…yes, it would be naive.
    I my opinion first years since child gets into Russian Nationals Team (for Lena and Nikita in 2009/10 season for JGP), everything is paid by parents mainly. Tulosai described a little bit different situation and financial support of skaters since childhood, but I think that it is not so much money for each child (so it is not so big lost for Federation when a child will appear not so talented later).
    And we know that Russia gave a lot of money for all those four years for Sochi preparation – so I think that main amount of money was given between 2010 and 2014, not so much money sooner. Probably I&K were the most expensive dancers in 2011-2014 because they were coached by Morozov who is very expensive, they spent every half season in US where it is expensive for non US people, they worked with foreign specialists there also. So, yes, this couple was extremely expensive.
    But once again as I understand Russian Federation got a lot of money for four years preparation for Olympics, so the main target was the Olympics.

    Until this time Victoria and Nikita didn’t say anything oficially else except: “Bye.“ – from Nikita and “I have personal reasons.“ - from Victoria. I am hungry to know more and to understand why is Russian Ice Dance suddenly in such critical point. Which reasons leaded to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    If you are employed by someone, are you in position of choosing with whom you want to work? What if you invested in some long term project (because bringing up ice dancers to be world competitive is not only a project for one season) and then when you are near to getting rewards for your investment, someone decided to abandon the project? Would you be happy loosing the money you invested for the last 6 years?
    Great example.
    As to long term project – I would turn this to coaches and all team around each couple. Russian Federation gives money not from their own pockets (every member of Russian Federation gets great salary and goes on long vacations plus they are travelling at competitions with their families and everything is free for them – so, another vacations). I would say that a coach should mainly be angry that his long term project fail…and for what? Love romance? But as we know skaters and Federation don’t have problem to change coaches. An example of I&K – it was Zhulin and Volkov who made a star from them, without edges learned by them and choreography and idea of Schindler‘s List, a couple wouldn’t rise so much…because no matter how much talented you are, you must work (with Zhulin they had to) and you need a great team around you who will help to show everything what is inside of you. (One note, Russian Federation was against Schindler‘s List, but Zhulin persisted and didn’t change a program and it was great decision – after B&S troubles with programs past two seasons just another example how much Russian Federations knows about skating.) But Russian Federation and skaters themselves run to Morozov – which means that they destroyed Zhulin’s long term project. The same for Kustarova / Alexeeva – while B&S were supported to leave their coaches and finally came to Zhulin – they also destroyed long term project of Kustarova / Alexeeva. But coach and all team behind skaters are those who invests hours and hours of hard work and nerves and time….while Russian Federation gives money taken from Minister of Sport. I would feel more sorry for coaches and team around skaters then for Federation.

    I must say that from some I&K interviews I got an idea that kids take themselves very seriously and that they think that their life is the most exciting and demanding on the world and that they suffering and sacrificies for the sport are the biggest on the world. I remember Nikita mentioning that certainly many people are jealous of them because of their life in top level sport. I would say that all last four years everybody in Russian Federation supported this couple so much that both Lena and Nikita got an opinion that a world is turning around them and they can allow themselves things which other can’t. I can see this kind of behaviour in other sportsmen also. I don’t like this…I respect all great skaters but I also realise that those skaters wouldn’t be on top places without great work of team around them. But I also have a respect for all other jobs on the world which are not less important that figure skating sport.
    And like Hanca noticed in last item…I would like to add that all those top level athletes were never connected in something what would evoke normal employment with classical conditions (you really don’t choose who you work with). I would give an opportunity to all skaters with such behaviour to work in “normal employment“ for some months to realise what is allowed and what is only in their “dream world“. Maybe we would be saved from such situations then.

    The last what would I like to say is the fact that no matter how old Nikita looks like, until this time his behaviour is far to professional behaviour of grown-up man with all those “behind the scenes“ moments. That is how it finishes when a grown-up decisions are made by not grown-up people.

  2. #1067
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    Quote Originally Posted by sisinka View Post
    I gave an idea how could be Nikita thinking…yes, it would be naive.
    I my opinion first years since child gets into Russian Nationals Team (for Lena and Nikita in 2009/10 season for JGP), everything is paid by parents mainly. Tulosai described a little bit different situation and financial support of skaters since childhood, but I think that it is not so much money for each child (so it is not so big lost for Federation when a child will appear not so talented later).
    And we know that Russia gave a lot of money for all those four years for Sochi preparation – so I think that main amount of money was given between 2010 and 2014, not so much money sooner.
    I think you are wrong. In 2008/09 I-K started skating together and they have been showing a lot of promise from beginning; in season 2009/10 they won junior worlds, so it is 5 or 6 seasons they have been funded, not only the last 4 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by sisinka View Post
    Probably I&K were the most expensive dancers in 2011-2014 because they were coached by Morozov who is very expensive, they spent every half season in US where it is expensive for non US people, they worked with foreign specialists there also. So, yes, this couple was extremely expensive.
    But once again as I understand Russian Federation got a lot of money for four years preparation for Olympics, so the main target was the Olympics.
    I agree that I-K were probably the most expensive couple because of their training abroad; I am not sure whether it is good reason to say that "as I understand Russian Federation got a lot of money for four years preparation for Olympics, so the main target was the Olympics" because if you were the one investing the money and could get the same results with paying less (if the same couple trained in Russia) would you be able to justify to pay more money for the same result?

    Quote Originally Posted by sisinka View Post
    As to long term project – I would turn this to coaches and all team around each couple. Russian Federation gives money not from their own pockets (every member of Russian Federation gets great salary and goes on long vacations plus they are travelling at competitions with their families and everything is free for them – so, another vacations). I would say that a coach should mainly be angry that his long term project fail…and for what? Love romance? But as we know skaters and Federation don’t have problem to change coaches. An example of I&K – it was Zhulin and Volkov who made a star from them, without edges learned by them and choreography and idea of Schindler‘s List, a couple wouldn’t rise so much…because no matter how much talented you are, you must work (with Zhulin they had to) and you need a great team around you who will help to show everything what is inside of you. (One note, Russian Federation was against Schindler‘s List, but Zhulin persisted and didn’t change a program and it was great decision – after B&S troubles with programs past two seasons just another example how much Russian Federations knows about skating.) But Russian Federation and skaters themselves run to Morozov – which means that they destroyed Zhulin’s long term project. The same for Kustarova / Alexeeva – while B&S were supported to leave their coaches and finally came to Zhulin – they also destroyed long term project of Kustarova / Alexeeva. But coach and all team behind skaters are those who invests hours and hours of hard work and nerves and time….while Russian Federation gives money taken from Minister of Sport. I would feel more sorry for coaches and team around skaters then for Federation.
    This is not about feeling sorry for the Federation. Of course the money don't go from the members of Federation own pockets, but that still doesn't change anything on the fact that the Federation was entrusted with public money which they invested in someone, who then decided (half way through the long term project) to engage in a different project which means that the money invested will not bring the benefits. The fact that the money is given by ministry means that Katsalapov is wasting public money; is it any less waste than wasting someone's private money? In any case, it is not his money.


    Quote Originally Posted by sisinka View Post
    And like Hanca noticed in last item…I would like to add that all those top level athletes were never connected in something what would evoke normal employment with classical conditions (you really don’t choose who you work with). I would give an opportunity to all skaters with such behaviour to work in “normal employment“ for some months to realise what is allowed and what is only in their “dream world“. Maybe we would be saved from such situations then.

    The last what would I like to say is the fact that no matter how old Nikita looks like, until this time his behaviour is far to professional behaviour of grown-up man with all those “behind the scenes“ moments. That is how it finishes when a grown-up decisions are made by not grown-up people.
    I know that their situation is not classical 'employment' situation, but they were receiving money and someone invested in them. That investment now goes wasted.

    Even if the Federation decided, for the sake of argument, that Katsalapov doesn't owe them anything, Katsalapov still needs someone to fund his new project (skating with Sinitsina) and how can the Federation be sure that he won't give up again after they invest another huge amount of money? I think Katsalapov needs the Federation more than the Federation needs Katsalapov. If I was the Federation (or the person within the Federation who makes the decision), I would say "Fine, we are going to fund Katsalapov in the future, but only after he starts showing results equal to those he has been achieving with Ilynikh. So after he start medalling at GP events and brings a medal (any medal) from Europeans." If Katsalapov has to fund his training until he gets to the stage where he was with Elena, one can argue that there were no money wasted because the period where his results dropped as a result of skating with another partner would be self funded. That would be pretty fair decision.

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    Quote Originally Posted by elif View Post
    I'm very sure they wanted to switch their Olympic medal to NHK Trophy 2013 medal, but ISU not allowed.
    How can a team dominate if they can't medal at a gp event? And then no medal at worlds. I am talking about not how gp medal is worth more than Olympic or olympic doesn't medal matter because of no gp medal but "domination". Team can't dominate if personal animosities lead to training problems where they don't medal at a gp event and how that makes it impossible for a team to "dominate".

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    I think you are wrong. In 2008/09 I-K started skating together and they have been showing a lot of promise from beginning; in season 2009/10 they won junior worlds, so it is 5 or 6 seasons they have been funded, not only the last 4 years.
    I am not sure about this. They didn’t compete internationally in 2008/09 season and I always thought that Russian Federation supports skaters since they start to compete internationally – it was 2009/10. This season was great fom them but because in the beginning of 2009/10 they were just one of all those junior teams going to JGP and nobody could know how will their results look like – so I suppose that all really BIG dotations from Federation started in season 2010/11. But of course I can be wrong in this point.

    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    I agree that I-K were probably the most expensive couple because of their training abroad; I am not sure whether it is good reason to say that "as I understand Russian Federation got a lot of money for four years preparation for Olympics, so the main target was the Olympics" because if you were the one investing the money and could get the same results with paying less (if the same couple trained in Russia) would you be able to justify to pay more money for the same result?
    I would use this item to argue Morozov in 2011 that he has enought space and there are many Russian specialists in Russia as well, so he can spend all those years with kids in Russia (and it would be less expensive). Plus it would gain an unique opportunity to make control of training process and see how a couple (with lazy issues rumoured) is working in reality. Plus it would also give an opportunity to notice some relationship issues much sooner. I see only positives in keeping them all those years in Russia only. Of course Lena and Nikita love America but frankly what they learnt there what they couldn’t get in Russia. Three days with Sphilband? But Sphilband came this year for some time to Russia to be one of judges in Averbukh‘s ice project. Few trainings with dancers of famous singers like Janet Jackson or Britney Spears? Opportunity to see Brodway? Box classes? Only Disneyland have to be added…but I am not sure whether Lena didn’t post some pictures from Disneyland also – she certainly had a picture with toy of Mister Yoda. But to serious thing, Vaitsekhovskaya is right that a couple who spends so much time in US – there is almost no possibility to control training process and to see how much they improved.

    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    This is not about feeling sorry for the Federation. Of course the money don't go from the members of Federation own pockets, but that still doesn't change anything on the fact that the Federation was entrusted with public money which they invested in someone, who then decided (half way through the long term project) to engage in a different project which means that the money invested will not bring the benefits. The fact that the money is given by ministry means that Katsalapov is wasting public money; is it any less waste than wasting someone's private money? In any case, it is not his money.
    That is true.
    I wonder if there is at least one skater who would ever think about origin of money which pay his/her bills. Many skaters are talking about responsibility for his/her country, but I am almost sure that all of them never had an idea that working people are funding their trainings/costumes/food/accomodation/skates/choreographies etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    I know that their situation is not classical 'employment' situation, but they were receiving money and someone invested in them. That investment now goes wasted.

    Even if the Federation decided, for the sake of argument, that Katsalapov doesn't owe them anything, Katsalapov still needs someone to fund his new project (skating with Sinitsina) and how can the Federation be sure that he won't give up again after they invest another huge amount of money? I think Katsalapov needs the Federation more than the Federation needs Katsalapov. If I was the Federation (or the person within the Federation who makes the decision), I would say "Fine, we are going to fund Katsalapov in the future, but only after he starts showing results equal to those he has been achieving with Ilynikh. So after he start medalling at GP events and brings a medal (any medal) from Europeans." If Katsalapov has to fund his training until he gets to the stage where he was with Elena, one can argue that there were no money wasted because the period where his results dropped as a result of skating with another partner would be self funded. That would be pretty fair decision.
    I fully understand Mutko who says that they are not going to give money to this new couple of S&K, that this couple needs to look for dotations from region. I feel sorry for Lena and Ruslan that this situation with dotations will touch them as well, while at least Ruslan looks innocent in it (Lena‘s behaviour or lack of trainings was discussed more than once, but Nikita’s lack of trainings were almost mentioned, but I never heard about Ruslan’s laziness). I think that fundations from Russian Federation will start in moment when a couple will be taken into National Team which can happen during first competitions for sure, and from this moment they will get money from Federation. You probably mean that in the same moment mainly I&K and also S&Z could get better placement and medals, so it was a waste of money to allow them to split, so you would stop any dotations until they prove that a changement was as successful as previous couples, I understand. And this is quite strict opinion I think, but it has its logic.

    Overall Hanca, if you and me were a part of that group of specialists who would decide about kids future….I worry that Nikita would lose his beautiful smile in few moments. And taking Bramweld and Alba and some others, well…this topic wouldn‘t have 72 pages definitely, we would decide it all in two days, described it all in one page (no wait, my long answers, I take at least three pages for myself…) and finish. Some people would lost their soap opera… but kids who want to skate would already work for next season.

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    S/K are going to the US for three weeks tryouts with Zueva.

    Source: http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20140413/742845516.html

    Edit: Good for the start. Does it mean NO MOROZOV?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow63 View Post
    S/K are going to the US for three weeks tryouts with Zueva.

    Soerce: http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20140413/742845516.html

    Edit: Good for the start. Does it mean NO MOROZOV?
    Looks like the Shibs are going to get short-sticked again with Marina.
    On the other hand... No Morozov... Sounds like a good plan.

  7. #1072
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    Quote Originally Posted by sisinka View Post
    Overall Hanca, if you and me were a part of that group of specialists who would decide about kids future….I worry that Nikita would lose his beautiful smile in few moments. And taking Bramweld and Alba and some others, well…this topic wouldn‘t have 72 pages definitely, we would decide it all in two days, described it all in one page (no wait, my long answers, I take at least three pages for myself…) and finish. Some people would lost their soap opera… but kids who want to skate would already work for next season.
    I agree with that one! Even if Federation was not aware of the rumours before the worlds, they couldn't not notice of the rumours during the worlds (same as we heard of the rumours). So if I invested into someone so much money (no matter if my private money, or public money that were entrusted me to invest) I would call I-K at the nearest opportunity and ask them to explain. Obviously I would have waited for the competition to finish, but the following day after they returned to Russia, they would present themselves in my office and explain. If not, the funding of the one who did not attend would cease immediately. It seems to me that the Federation was dismissing the situation for too long and did not take it seriously until it was too late.

    I would sit them both down and explain to them that while I can't make them skate together, I won't agree to fund them until they bring at least a GP medal with their new partner. That means that money for costumes and training until beginning of the new season, including sessions with specialists for new lifts etc would come out of their pocket. And if they don't get a medal at GP event, they will keep funding their skating until they are appropriate level. If Elena is willing to skate with Katsalapov but he is not willing to skate with her, I would agree to fund Elena's new couple but not fund Katsalapov's new couple. I know that it would punish Sinitsina too, but she would have to understand that she is entering into pairing that was not approved by the Federation. Easy! Sorted within a few days.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow63 View Post
    S/K are going to the US for three weeks tryouts with Zueva.

    Source: http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20140413/742845516.html

    Edit: Good for the start. Does it mean NO MOROZOV?

    Great! No Morozov! Could we now send Ilynikh/Zhiganshin to Spliband, please? Let the fun begin!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    Great! No Morozov! Could we now send Ilynikh/Zhiganshin to Spliband, please? Let the fun begin!
    I suggest to send them to Zueva too. We need more DRAMAAAAAAAAAAA!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow63 View Post
    I suggest to send them to Zueva too. We need more DRAMAAAAAAAAAAA!!!
    All we'd need is for one of them to get a reality show and go through Zuevagate 2.0!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow63 View Post
    S/K are going to the US for three weeks tryouts with Zueva.

    Source: http://rsport.ru/figure_skating/20140413/742845516.html

    Edit: Good for the start. Does it mean NO MOROZOV?
    I have a feeling all along that Zueva was a real culprit in all these circus. She is such a real-life Maleficent (Mistress of all evil). But I love her all the same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by busymom View Post
    i have a feeling all along that zueva was a real culprit in all these circus. She is such a real-life maleficent (mistress of all evil). But i love her all the same.
    ditto!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by BusyMom View Post
    I have a feeling all along that Zueva was a real culprit in all these circus. She is such a real-life Maleficent (Mistress of all evil). But I love her all the same.
    I doubt it. Two weeks ago she was talking up I/K as the leaders of the new quad and saying that it would be stupid to split up a couple that was born to skate together - why do that if she was planning to take the new team all along? More like the Federation is angry that Morozov either split up I/K or helped Nikita dump Elena without them knowing, so he gets punished by losing his team. Although in my mind the real losers here are Elena & Ruslan, because S/K get the coach with all the political power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by uhh View Post
    I doubt it. Two weeks ago she was talking up I/K as the leaders of the new quad and saying that it would be stupid to split up a couple that was born to skate together - why do that if she was planning to take the new team all along? More like the Federation is angry that Morozov either split up I/K or helped Nikita dump Elena without them knowing, so he gets punished by losing his team. Although in my mind the real losers here are Elena & Ruslan, because S/K get the coach with all the political power.
    That's why Elena/Ruslan should be sent to another coach with the same political power. Spilband!!! Krylova!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    That's why Elena/Ruslan should be sent to another coach with the same political power. Spilband!!! Krylova!!!
    or send them to Zueva too and we are going to have the most exciting quad of ice dance! More drama from Canton camp.

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