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Thread: Elena Ilinykh & Nikita Katsalapov Split

  1. #1261
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    My understanding is (I read it somehwre here or on the other forum) that after worlds Elena and Nikita were supposed to go to train to Zoueva, so maybe the Federation decided that the new pair (not officially confirmed pair) should go there to see how it goes. I can't see why it shouldn't be legal that Victoria and Nikita went to Zoueva. If I wanted to go to Zoueva (and had a partner) and she took me, that's a contract between me and Zoueva. If Russian Federation decides not approve them, they can refuse to fund them, but there is nothing illegal on a person skating with another person.

    I don't know who pays for it, but I am sure the families can afford to pay for their children to train somewhere for 3 weeks. After all, most families pay for their coaches all year round. It is only in several countries that skaters get some funding. Most countries can't afford it and the skaters/their parents pay themselves (sponsors, or parents doing several jobs, or skaters having some part time job e.g. teaching skating classes, or remortgaging house if they have to). Besides, Nikita's family may not be rich, but Nikita for example brought a gold and bronze medal from Sochi and got a car as a reward. If they were really struggling financially, I am sure he could sell the car! But there may not be need for that; he must have some sponsors. Skating is popular in Russia and he brought two medals from Olympics.
    If it was between kids and Zueva, then it would be OK, but it wouldn't be logic while they go there for three weeks only - like why they would ask her for help for just three weeks - so it looks like Russian Federation's decision.

    My question was whether it would be legal for Russian Federation to send and finance a tryout of couple who is no more in National Team and who officialy does not exist. If Mutko asked Federation later to explain how was certain money invested, what they would answer him?: "You know, it was for two people who were not a couple and not in National Team, we only wanted to know if they can be compatible and we were not able to find it ourselves in few days (because we have only Tarasova, Zhulin, Svinin, Zhuk, Bestemianova, Gorshkov, Tchaikovskaya, Kustarova specialists), so we send them to Zueva." Like Russian Figure Skating Federation would finance a trip for Ovechkin and Malkin who wanted to go to Zueva for some skating classes...

    I never heard that Nikita would have some sponsors, I know Lena has...she noticed it somewhere (she also noticed that it was very hard to get a sponsor). I don't know if she meant Pantene and P&G or somebody else. But if it would be those two companies only, then it would be Lena's sponsors, not Nikita's.

  2. #1262
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    Well, I'm glad if what Vaitsekhovskaya said about Elena is true: She says that the decision to skate with Zhiganshin was "the first adult decision in her life", because "out of two possible partners she chose not the one who would suit her better in looks, but is currently unavailable yet, but the one who is obsessed with the idea of hard work and getting back on top - like herself".

    So it means Elena is convinced about Ruslan and really want to work with him. I'm also gald to learn that he is a hard worker.

  3. #1263
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan O View Post
    I don't know if there was that much advanced planning by the judges. There probably was a bias in favour of I&K (which we saw in the very high PCS in the SD despite the twizzle wipe-out), but some of the judging may have been as a result of having the top 2 dance teams absent after so many years. With V&M and D&W gone, it makes sense that it was hard to determine who the top team was. In the past 4 seasons, V&M and D&W had a lock on the top 2 spots, and it was everyone else fighting for the bronze.

    This year was the first time in years that ALL the podium spots became open, particularly with B&S withdrawing, and then I&K messing up the SD. The fact that I&K placed 1st in the FD and so high in PCS in the SD does back up your contention that they may have been favoured. Part of that may be because they were the only medalists from the Olympics who went to Sochi. But some of the close results between positions 1-4 (scores all between 175-174) may also just be a reflection of what happens when you have a field of teams that are close in ability when you remove gold and silver medalists (D&W and V&M).
    Indeed. I think I'm saying what you're saying too. I think B&S withdrawing messed things up too. In the field, the teams with the strongest natural abilities are B&S and I&K but they were either weak in execution or their programs weren't good. I was surprised that W&P were suddenly so close to winning the whole thing since they were 7th in Sochi after all, which I thought was a travesty. I thought they weren't favored much and might not even medal at Worlds, even though I thought they should have been at least 5th in Sochi. Surely, I&K were favored to win the whole thing, and having botched their SP, the judges wanted them to at least be on the podium. They didn't know what to do when the other teams, especially W&P and C&L, skated so well, and so while they tried to save I&K, the points didn't add up. C&L were almost accidental winners, but I thought based on their efforts and having the best well-skated (not saying they're the best programs or dancers) competition, they did deserve to win.

    In the judges' ideal situation, it would have seemed C&L, W&P, P&B, B&S would have fought for silver and bronze, while I&K would get the gold.

    Not only are the quad's traditional Gold and Silver medalists (VM and DW) were removed from the scene, but the potential bronze and silver medalists were almost removed or skated poorly. Thus, confusion ensued.

    Suddenly, you had teams from their traditional placements of 4th-6th places become contenders.

    To W&P's favor, they may benefit from the rejected "Oscar" effect next season. Many actors who deserved the Oscar one year but lost it would later on win the next time when they deserved their Oscar less. Many things have been said about the judges but they do reward skaters, albeit in a delayed manner. John Curry said that if you're talented, they will eventually recognize you and reward you eventually, even if they might have kept you down for a few years.

  4. #1264
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryan O View Post
    I think one of the articles said that S&K have applied to be registered as a new partnership, yes? I'm not sure about I&Z. Presumably both partnerships will want to be officially registered as teams soon so that they can be entered into the competition roster for next season.

    Some of these delays and roadblocks may have also been to make sure this is what these new teams really want and to make them think it through before cutting the cord for good.
    I just found the article on FSU and Vaitsekhovskaya confirms that both S&K and I&Z have applied officially to the federation.
    http://winter.sport-express.ru/figur...reviews/43330/

    So, I think they should speed up the approval for I&Z at least.

  5. #1265
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    Sisinka, please, stop worrying about their money. Do you think that someone who brought two medals from Sochi, gold and bronze, doesn't have any sponsors? Besides, he can always sell the car they got for their medal. I am sure that Nikita would not have financial problems even if the Federation did not fund him for a while.
    I am sure that money question is not hurting Nikita and I am not hyped up with his money, my reason is different a little bit...
    I am not a fan of his behind the scenes behaviour, not the split itself, but how he did it. I believe (personally I know) he had more reasons for running away, but I don't like HOW he did it. He and Victoria destroyed two of three top Russian couples. OK, it happened and it is time to move on. Solve all problems and start new season's preparation. But what is Russian Federation doing? Waiting...asking Zueva for three weeks of help...another waiting...asking media for patience.

    Personally I am for equal chances for everybody. Right know there are all National Team couples (B&S, M&K, S&B, R&T - if still exist, Y&M and other juniors) above I&Z and S&K looking at results, skating qualities, because both new couples needs time to learn how to skate together. If Russian Federation is giving money to S&K...why? Why not to I&Z for new choroegrapher...for example Krylova? But with Mutko's decision about no dotation for new couples..OK, no money to I&Z as well. Why not those money for National Teams? Maybe Stepanova & Bukin would like to go to Zueva for three weeks training camp, why not? Maybe Monko & Khaliavin would like to go to Krylova for training camp, why not? Maybe Yanovskaya & Mozgov would like to choreography from Zueva, why not? Why is Russian Federation's attention turn to Victoria and Nikita? Why they just can't confirm new couples (why both Victoria and Nikita persist on it), give red light to Lena and Ruslan and concentrate on people and couples who have order in their life and on ice relationships? I thik it would be much more professional and wise from Russian Federation.

  6. #1266
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    Quote Originally Posted by sisinka View Post
    Personally I am for equal chances for everybody. Right know there are all National Team couples (B&S, M&K, S&B, R&T - if still exist, Y&M and other juniors) above I&Z and S&K looking at results, skating qualities, because both new couples needs time to learn how to skate together. If Russian Federation is giving money to S&K...why? Why not to I&Z for new choroegrapher...for example Krylova? But with Mutko's decision about no dotation for new couples..OK, no money to I&Z as well. Why not those money for National Teams? Maybe Stepanova & Bukin would like to go to Zueva for three weeks training camp, why not? Maybe Monko & Khaliavin would like to go to Krylova for training camp, why not? Maybe Yanovskaya & Mozgov would like to choreography from Zueva, why not? Why is Russian Federation's attention turn to Victoria and Nikita? Why they just can't confirm new couples (why both Victoria and Nikita persist on it), give red light to Lena and Ruslan and concentrate on people and couples who have order in their life and on ice relationships? I thik it would be much more professional and wise from Russian Federation.
    You can't have equal chances for everybody though. I mean the Fed will always give more support to the couple that they judge as the better couple, more talented etc.

  7. #1267
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alba View Post
    You can't have equal chances for everybody though. I mean the Fed will always give more support to the couple that they judge as the better couple, more talented etc.

    Deleted.

  8. #1268
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    Quote Originally Posted by bramweld View Post
    Well assuming that Lena and Nikita are both halves of the Olympic bronze medal at the outset they should be given an equal chance. Champions are not born overnight. It took I/K six years to get to this point. It would take something truly magnificent to get to that same place in one season, just saying.
    No I agree with you in this case. I was just speaking in general because sisnka was referring to other couples too.
    I fully agree that in Elena's and Nikita's case they should be treated equally, maybe even a bit in favor of Elena.

  9. #1269
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    Quote Originally Posted by sisinka View Post
    I am sure that money question is not hurting Nikita and I am not hyped up with his money, my reason is different a little bit...
    I am not a fan of his behind the scenes behaviour, not the split itself, but how he did it. I believe (personally I know) he had more reasons for running away, but I don't like HOW he did it. He and Victoria destroyed two of three top Russian couples. OK, it happened and it is time to move on. Solve all problems and start new season's preparation. But what is Russian Federation doing? Waiting...asking Zueva for three weeks of help...another waiting...asking media for patience.

    Personally I am for equal chances for everybody. Right know there are all National Team couples (B&S, M&K, S&B, R&T - if still exist, Y&M and other juniors) above I&Z and S&K looking at results, skating qualities, because both new couples needs time to learn how to skate together. If Russian Federation is giving money to S&K...why? Why not to I&Z for new choroegrapher...for example Krylova? But with Mutko's decision about no dotation for new couples..OK, no money to I&Z as well. Why not those money for National Teams? Maybe Stepanova & Bukin would like to go to Zueva for three weeks training camp, why not? Maybe Monko & Khaliavin would like to go to Krylova for training camp, why not? Maybe Yanovskaya & Mozgov would like to choreography from Zueva, why not? Why is Russian Federation's attention turn to Victoria and Nikita? Why they just can't confirm new couples (why both Victoria and Nikita persist on it), give red light to Lena and Ruslan and concentrate on people and couples who have order in their life and on ice relationships? I thik it would be much more professional and wise from Russian Federation.
    That's the problem! You don't even know if they are paying S/K, but you have already managed to question IF they are paying him, 'WHY'? Maybe it would be a good idea to first find out if they are paying him at all before you start sending posts on questions 'why'...

  10. #1270
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alba View Post
    You can't have equal chances for everybody though. I mean the Fed will always give more support to the couple that they judge as the better couple, more talented etc.
    Then it would go to decision to send both S&K and I&Z to Zueva, but it didn't happen.

    Russian Federation should work for the best possible placement and strategy for all Russian skating, not for just S&K. I&K gave the biggest amount of medals plus two Olympic medals, that is true. But a couple split. Now they are two people who are working with somebody else. A title of Olympic medalists will always stay aside their names, but with new partner both Lena and Nikita start from zero. They will work on new reputation, new placement, new opportunity given from judges to take some medal - it will take months and years.
    So, right know (to my sorry to Ruslan and Lena who didn't come with this split idea), there are couples who are more promising looking at results (at least this coming season's results)...and those couples should be more supported from Federation and more under control of Federation's eyes to be able to improve then new two couples who will start from zero and learn how to skate together (while other top Russian teams were learning how to skate together like team already many years ago).

    And junior teams need to be supported as well, in few years some of them will come on places of senior Russian top teams and they will need "good" name from juniors. So, they need Russian Federation's support and attention more than somebody who is Gorshkov afraid if they will be compatible. That is my opinion.

    I wouldn't make this agony last longer, I would make new teams official, let them work and let Federation concentrate on other teams who need help while new teams will work in peace and do their best for future results. That's all.

  11. #1271
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    That's the problem! You don't even know if they are paying S/K, but you have already managed to question IF they are paying him, 'WHY'? Maybe it would be a good idea to first find out if they are paying him at all before you start sending posts on questions 'why'...
    Well, we are all more or less speculating here. I see nothing wrong with that.

  12. #1272
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    Quote Originally Posted by sisinka View Post
    Then it would go to decision to send both S&K and I&Z to Zueva, but it didn't happen.

    Russian Federation should work for the best possible placement and strategy for all Russian skating, not for just S&K. I&K gave the biggest amount of medals plus two Olympic medals, that is true. But a couple split. Now they are two people who are working with somebody else. A title of Olympic medalists will always stay aside their names, but with new partner both Lena and Nikita start from zero. They will work on new reputation, new placement, new opportunity given from judges to take some medal - it will take months and years.
    So, right know (to my sorry to Ruslan and Lena who didn't come with this split idea), there are couples who are more promising looking at results (at least this coming season's results)...and those couples should be more supported from Federation and more under control of Federation's eyes to be able to improve then new two couples who will start from zero and learn how to skate together (while other top Russian teams were learning how to skate together like team already many years ago).

    And junior teams need to be supported as well, in few years some of them will come on places of senior Russian top teams and they will need "good" name from juniors. So, they need Russian Federation's support and attention more than somebody who is Gorshkov afraid if they will be compatible. That is my opinion.

    I wouldn't make this agony last longer, I would make new teams official, let them work and let Federation concentrate on other teams who need help while new teams will work in peace and do their best for future results. That's all.
    I don't think they will neglect the other teams. I think it's fair not to let Elena and Ruslan, at least, out there alone. After all, they are not the ones that caused all this.

  13. #1273
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    That's the problem! You don't even know if they are paying S/K, but you have already managed to question IF they are paying him, 'WHY'? Maybe it would be a good idea to first find out if they are paying him at all before you start sending posts on questions 'why'...
    Yes, you are right...but I doubt that Gorshkov will tell me or media how was it done.
    But a fact that S&K went for tryout to Zueva (I can't remember any other case that a tryout would be done in such way), the fact that Gorshkov announced it, the fact that Gorshkov announced this info to Kustarova, the fact that Zueva herself gave an interview to Russian media (while Nikita and Viki are quiet, so if it would be between kids and Zueva only I doubt that she would give an interview...also if it would be between kids and Zueva, she would simply start to train them, not to do a three weeks tryout and then to send them to Russian Federation back)...this all leads to idea that it is not between kids and Zueva, but it was arranged by Russian Federation.

    I was wondering whether somebody doesn't know more about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sisinka View Post
    Yes, you are right...but I doubt that Gorshkov will tell me or media how was it done.
    But a fact that S&K went for tryout to Zueva (I can't remember any other case that a tryout would be done in such way), the fact that Gorshkov announced it, the fact that Gorshkov announced this info to Kustarova, the fact that Zueva herself gave an interview to Russian media (while Nikita and Viki are quiet, so if it would be between kids and Zueva only I doubt that she would give an interview...also if it would be between kids and Zueva, she would simply start to train them, not to do a three weeks tryout and then to send them to Russian Federation back)...this all leads to idea that it is not between kids and Zueva, but it was arranged by Russian Federation.

    I was wondering whether somebody doesn't know more about it.

    Well, it could for example be like this:
    Katsalapov insisting that he wants to skate with Sinitsina. Federation hoping he will change his mind if he realises how much work is involved (that they would have to start from the beginning). So the Federation could have said - OK, this is the deal: you go with Sinitsina to Zoueva, (you pay for it because we can't fund you at the moment), you spend there three weeks and after those three weeks Zoueva will send us a report. If Zoueva will report that the partnership may have potentially a future, we will give you approval for skating with Sinitsina (but not funding until you earn your spot at the national team). If Zoueva reports that it won't work, we want you to return to Ilynikh (or we will find you another partner), otherwise we will guarantee you that we won't submit your name for any GP event and you won't get any funding in the future because we won't let you get on the national team. Easy!

    Also, you wondering why S/K were sent to Zoueva and I/Z are not having the same opportunity - have you considered that perhaps Ruslan and Elena sat down and though about what coach they want. Ruslan may have wanted to stay with his coach, Elena had a good experience with Kustarova because she trained there last year in spring when Morozov traveled to Japan, so she could have said 'fine, let's try, if I don't like it, we can change coach later'. So it could have been I/Z choice to stay in Russia, whereas S/K were sent on trial.

  15. #1275
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    Quote Originally Posted by hanca View Post
    Well, it could for example be like this:
    Katsalapov insisting that he wants to skate with Sinitsina. Federation hoping he will change his mind if he realises how much work is involved (that they would have to start from the beginning). So the Federation could have said - OK, this is the deal: you go with Sinitsina to Zoueva, (you pay for it because we can't fund you at the moment), you spend there three weeks and after those three weeks Zoueva will send us a report. If Zoueva will report that the partnership may have potentially a future, we will give you approval for skating with Sinitsina (but not funding until you earn your spot at the national team). If Zoueva reports that it won't work, we want you to return to Ilynikh (or we will find you another partner), otherwise we will guarantee you that we won't submit your name for any GP event and you won't get any funding in the future because we won't let you get on the national team. Easy!

    Also, you wondering why S/K were sent to Zoueva and I/Z are not having the same opportunity - have you considered that perhaps Ruslan and Elena sat down and though about what coach they want. Ruslan may have wanted to stay with his coach, Elena had a good experience with Kustarova because she trained there last year in spring when Morozov traveled to Japan, so she could have said 'fine, let's try, if I don't like it, we can change coach later'. So it could have been I/Z choice to stay in Russia, whereas S/K were sent on trial.
    Also, Lena seems to be very tight with her family. According to her it was excruciating to be away from home last summer, so to now be their full time was something she just couldn't bear. I don't think she is really that in love with Marina any way, personally I think her choreography is getting a bit stale and she is not really a tech whiz. Hence the reason the Shibs have suffered of late. I/K have always struggled with levels especially at the beginning of the season. No way I was going to America unless Igor and Marina were back together. Those two are better together than apart.

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