2014 Worlds - Men Free Program
- Thread starter Sabrina
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I´m sorry for Chan not winning the Olympic gold medal, but can´t help feeling that he just has himself to blame for that. During a couple of years there has been lots and lots of opinions about that Chan should get himself a jump coach, a good technical coach, but he made his own choice. The judges have sent him wrong message by allowing him to win with falls. Maybe Chan himself started to believe that he is okay the way he is....? Well, in spite of that there should have been an intelligent person among his team, a person who had "forced" him to have also a jumping coach.
- Joined
- Nov 8, 2008
I join the thanks
I do agree about Javi, When i saw his Tech score down at 88 with 3 quads i was surprised,
But then i remembered he doubled one triple toe and singles a triple lutz, So he had only 5 triples,
And 3 landings on the negative GOE side, So i guess i was more at peace with it.
Also, Now that Javi is getting the PCS of a world champion, He can basically do a program with 2 quads and 6 triples,
Or 1 quad and 7-8 triples, And get about the same score he got here,
And possibly it will allow him to be less exhausted in the FS,
But i get the feeling is he's more comfortable doing 3 quads than going for two Lutzes or Flips
I think his best jump is def the Salcow and Toeloop. Maybe his intended combo was 4S+3T and also the 3Lz+3T, and repeat on 3S. Maybe he is not comfortable with second 3A or 3Lz, which will have give him more points.
Strangely, he jumps layout is similar to Brian Joubert, 3 quads, single 3A and two 3S with repeat on second one as a 1Lo-3S sequence. The lutz def give him issue, on previous competitions and I remember Joubert cut his leg with a blade, while doing a 3Lz.
- Joined
- Feb 18, 2014
Great for Bychenko
shame about the axle though
Top 10 at Euros and Will be top 15 at Worlds i guess
Never stopped fighting
I also admired the way he really attacked his program - impressive!
Basically, he will not take out 3rd quad because he and Hanyu have the same technical BV for the programms, but the diffrence is that Hanyu don't need to go for 3rd quad because he is able to do two 3a combos in 2nd half, while Javier seems to not be comfortable doing that, and quad salchow fits him better, but the risk seems to be bigger in Javi because when he can't stop the rotation like here in FS the planned combo is dead and he can only maintain 2T instead of 3T.
It's advance for him and for Yuzuru that they can go for two diffrent quads which allows them to plan higher technical content
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2013
I think TEB and SC and the GPF are good indications that his jumps were better this season. He just mentally couldn't hold it together in Sochi and caved to the immense pressure placed on him. He doesn't need a jump coach to do a 2A properly, and obviously nerves got to him.
You said the judges have sent Chan wrong message by allowing him to win with falls. In the same logic, you think they should not let Hanyu win, since he had a fall for each win this season, 2 falls at Sochi? (Chan didn't have any fall this season, if just talking about falls.)
That's what I said too. Complete skaters are above average technically and superb artistically. Javi and Yuzu are above average technically, but are not fully developed artistically or stylistically. Neither interprets the music well, but they ain't that shabby either, and they do have the potential to get better in that aspect. They are both over-scored on PCS, IMO. And, btw, the quad is just an extra revolution, not a basic jump. It's really messed up men's figure skating, IMHO, with the over focus on it. Not to mention the ridiculous inflation on PCS scores for skaters who can do the quad, but are NOT fully developed artistically and stylistically.
Skaters like Jason, Jeremy, Denis Ten are above average technically and have superb artistic skills. Some of the differences obviously enter into the equation in terms of how healthy a skater is (Denis' problems), how strong a skater is competitively (Jeremy's problems); and having to have the must have quad (Jason is working on putting the quad in his very competitive arsenal). Not having the quad or not yet mastering it consistently does not mean a skater doesn't have above-average technical skills. Many skaters who are above average technically may have a weak jump (e.g. Patrick Chan and 3-axel, and Yuzu's recent problems with one of his jumps). Despite Yuzu and Javi having consistent quads, they DO NOT perform them consistently at every competition. So, relative consistency becomes an overall factor (but seemingly more of a factor for skaters who haven't been landing them for as long or as much as those who do). In addition, politics and rep with the judges clearly make the difference in this sport all things being equal. The quad revolution and the over-inflation on PCS for skaters who land quads has changed men's figure skating, and not for the better.
Your ability of putting together so many falsehoods in one post always manages to surprise me. I'd almost forgotten why I'd put you on ignore
In short: his current off-ice training schedule only began last summer, and in the same period he solved his asthma issues and started eating properly after consulting a nutritionist; he was definitely not near-death for all of the season as you seem to suggest, only got injured and lost weight on a couple of occasions due to getting sick; the thing about him collapsing onto the ice screaming is actually so ridiculous I just
that's right, after all you can't forget something that never happened.Oh, and the talk about retirement was more about him maybe retiring after winning the Olympics rather than him retiring because of some sort of mysterious ailment.
I hope skating fans realise that of Hanyu fans you are the exception rather than the rule.
The bottom line on Patrick Chan is that the judges did favor and over-reward him when he faltered because they were in love with his SS and because he seemed to so effortlessly master the quad. However, after all the fallout from 2012 and 2013 Worlds, a little bit of Patrick's favor with the judges began to chip away. Still, if Patrick had been able to skate the way he skated in Paris during the GP last fall, Chan would be Olympic champ. All the cards were in Patrick's hands and he simply made one too many mistakes that were not gonna be forgiven at the Olympics. Hanyu had already beaten Chan at GPF, so despite his youth, Hanyu was the fall-back winner (with the fewest mistakes of the favored top guys) approved by everyone due to his enormous potential as a complete skater with quads and artistry, even though Hanyu really isn't fully there yet artistically.
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2014
We all know PChan is the all-rounded skater and he is more of a complete skater than Hanyu. No one denies the fact that PChan should have been the gold medalist at Sochi if he hadn't made that many mistakes. In term of maturity and quality overall, PChan should be the one. The problem is he didn't perform as well as he was supposed to.
I think all these men didn't even understand what happened that day.We all know PChan is the all-rounded skater and he is more of a complete skater than Hanyu. No one denies the fact that PChan should have been the gold medalist at Sochi if he hadn't made that many mistakes. In term of maturity and quality overall, PChan should be the one. The problem is he didn't perform as well as he was supposed to.
We don't deny Chan is great skater, but you can't say Patrick should be gold medalist. Gold is not given straight away to someone and there was fight between him and Hanyu. So you can't say it was Chan ho lost gold, because after the SP Hanyu was man to beat - just to be clear
You can also go the other way, that also Hanyu could go without mistakes and the fight would be over after his performance, because perfect Hanyu vs perfect Chan, it is Hanyu ho is going to win because his technical content is much higher.But we shouldn't go back to Sochi at every opportunity. It is becoming boring a bit
I agree about Jeremy and semi-agree about Denis/Machida(their interpretation seems more forced,like they rehearsed it too much,and they're just doing what they learned and not what they feel,and well their skating leaves me cold) but people need to stop acting like Jason is the best thing since sliced bread.Yes he has artistry/musicality but tehnically he's far behind the top guys.The media needs to stop saying that he mastered the axel,he obliously didn't since he underrotates it most of the time,and that is not a good sign considering it took him so long to do it.
Sure maybe he can add a quad in the future but to say that he he is above average technically in his state now is false
Chan's axel problems were what costed him the OGM,I think the judges would have given him the gold till he messed up his 2A,the poor guy didn't land a clean axel jump the entire Olympics,he knew hat the axel was his weakness at those years why he didn't fix this before is just mindblogging and I'm sure if the judges would have scored him fair in the past he would have fixed that jump and be the olympic champion.
Hanyu's probably the best technical skater right now,the only chronic problem he has is the edge call on his flip.His 4S is strong in practice but not in competitions but it probably will be in the future and he has the correct technique down.The ocasional falls on some other jumps are just silly mistakes and the only <jump called in recent history is his 4T here in the short but I don't know what the judges were smoking cuz the jump looked fully rotated on replay but whatever
THESE is where we disagree... sorry I don't want to sound rude but someone that tells me that jason is above average technically makes me laugh... he has plenty of difficult transitions and incredible spins, but his ump are average and is 3a is still quite shaky... Abbot on the sheet has all the technical goods, but I've never seen him lay it down... even hanyus 4sal is more consistent than some of his triple... Denis while I agree that when he's on he has good jumps had shown to be able to get it togheter more or less oncee per season... thats doesn't bode well for him being an above average technician ( and I must say that I find him incredibly boring so I don't notice much of his artistry)
It seems like I have to whip out this boilerplate so often....I'm so glad I keep it handy in situations like these.
Probably more than you needed, but I think it's sufficient evidence to show that your statement that he underrotates it most of the time is not true.
His mastery rate on the 3A is better than most of the guys on quads.
I don't think Jason is above average in jumps, but he is above average as far as being an all-around skater. IF he wasn't then he wouldn't have ended up in the final group at the Olympics without a quad.
ETA: Somebody mentioned Hanyu's quad salchow. I love the kid to pieces, but if you want to talk about someone who is inconsistent on a jump. That's the perfect example:
Finlandia: +1.50
Skate Canada: : -3.00 (fall)
Trophee Eric Bompard: -.23 (1S pop)
Grand Prix Final: -3.00 (fall)
Olympics: -3.00 (fall)
Worlds: 0.00 (but ratified).
He is 5/6 for ratification, but fell on half of those attempts and is only 1/6 in + GOE (16 percent).
Does this mean his a subpar jumper? Of course not, his other jumps are solid and get good GOE! So I find it sort of crazy that people consider Jason a terrible jumper because he isn't 100 percent on the 3A. It's just one jump out of many.
As I said, I don't think Jason is the BEST jumper -- his GOE shows that and I'd rank him behind pretty much most of the top skaters at the Olympics. But he does enough in the jumps and makes up for it elsewhere to score well overall.
Jason's personal best in TES is 81+. Had he been at Worlds and turned in his personal best TES, he only would have been behind Hanyu, Fernandez and Machida in TES.
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Your ability of putting together so many falsehoods in one post always manages to surprise me. I'd almost forgotten why I'd put you on ignore
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Hi Kalina ! may be it’s better if you continue to put me on ignore
Your post are always useful, thank you very much! =) Iwas the one who talked about Hanyu's salchow, but I was using it in a hyperbole to illustrate jeremy's (in)consistence, not jason's... I knw pretty well that jason has turned in good technical scores, but I would say that most of that are from his spin proportionally more than his jumps and there's where it lays his strenght
Yes, I do realize the context, however, it definitely triggered my point regarding how all men have inconsistency in jumps.
As for his TES coming from jumps vs spins: he has to be somewhat good at jumps because even with all level 4 everything, it's not nearly worth as much as his jumps.
At the Olympics, Jason scored 45.39 in TES. He scored 17.23 in spins + steps, which is just 38 percent of the total TES score. The rest came from his three jumping passes (28.16 or 62 percent).
Here's how he ranked relative to the rest of the top 12 (percent of total score):
Yuzuru: 37.46 (68 percent)
Peter: 33.52 (71 percent)
Patrick: 32.10 (63 percent)
Brian: 30.83 (68 percent)
Alexander: 30.71 (67 percent)
Yan: 29.87 (66 percent)
Javier: 28.38 (64 percent)
Jason: 28.16 (62 percent)
Michal: 26.06 (62 percent)
Denis: 25.95 (60 percent)
Tatsuki: 23.94 (58 percent)
Daisuke: 23.92 (57 percent)
This exercise, I think illustrates the importance of being consistent. Had the other guys been more consistent on their quads, Jason would be a whole lot farther down in the standings.
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