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Thread: 2014 Worlds - Men Free Program

  1. #976
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    Quote Originally Posted by Art&Sport View Post
    Skaters like Jason, Jeremy, Denis Ten are above average technically and have superb artistic skills. Some of the differences obviously enter into the equation in terms of how healthy a skater is (Denis' problems), how strong a skater is competitively (Jeremy's problems); and having to have the must have quad (Jason is working on putting the quad in his very competitive arsenal). Not having the quad or not yet mastering it consistently does not mean a skater doesn't have above-average technical skills. Many skaters who are above average technically may have a weak jump (e.g. Patrick Chan and 3-axel, and Yuzu's recent problems with one of his jumps). Despite Yuzu and Javi having consistent quads, they DO NOT perform them consistently at every competition. So, relative consistency becomes an overall factor (but seemingly more of a factor for skaters who haven't been landing them for as long or as much as those who do). In addition, politics and rep with the judges clearly make the difference in this sport all things being equal. The quad revolution and the over-inflation on PCS for skaters who land quads has changed men's figure skating, and not for the better.
    THESE is where we disagree... sorry I don't want to sound rude but someone that tells me that jason is above average technically makes me laugh... he has plenty of difficult transitions and incredible spins, but his ump are average and is 3a is still quite shaky... Abbot on the sheet has all the technical goods, but I've never seen him lay it down... even hanyus 4sal is more consistent than some of his triple... Denis while I agree that when he's on he has good jumps had shown to be able to get it togheter more or less oncee per season... thats doesn't bode well for him being an above average technician ( and I must say that I find him incredibly boring so I don't notice much of his artistry)

  2. #977
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryusa5 View Post
    I agree about Jeremy and semi-agree about Denis/Machida(their interpretation seems more forced,like they rehearsed it too much,and they're just doing what they learned and not what they feel,and well their skating leaves me cold) but people need to stop acting like Jason is the best thing since sliced bread.Yes he has artistry/musicality but tehnically he's far behind the top guys.The media needs to stop saying that he mastered the axel,he obliously didn't since he underrotates it most of the time,and that is not a good sign considering it took him so long to do it.
    Sure maybe he can add a quad in the future but to say that he he is above average technically in his state now is false
    It seems like I have to whip out this boilerplate so often....I'm so glad I keep it handy in situations like these.
    Probably more than you needed, but I think it's sufficient evidence to show that your statement that he underrotates it most of the time is not true.

    His mastery rate on the 3A is better than most of the guys on quads.

    I don't think Jason is above average in jumps, but he is above average as far as being an all-around skater. IF he wasn't then he wouldn't have ended up in the final group at the Olympics without a quad.

    ETA: Somebody mentioned Hanyu's quad salchow. I love the kid to pieces, but if you want to talk about someone who is inconsistent on a jump. That's the perfect example:

    Finlandia: +1.50
    Skate Canada: : -3.00 (fall)
    Trophee Eric Bompard: -.23 (1S pop)
    Grand Prix Final: -3.00 (fall)
    Olympics: -3.00 (fall)
    Worlds: 0.00 (but ratified).

    He is 5/6 for ratification, but fell on half of those attempts and is only 1/6 in + GOE (16 percent).

    Does this mean his a subpar jumper? Of course not, his other jumps are solid and get good GOE! So I find it sort of crazy that people consider Jason a terrible jumper because he isn't 100 percent on the 3A. It's just one jump out of many.

    As I said, I don't think Jason is the BEST jumper -- his GOE shows that and I'd rank him behind pretty much most of the top skaters at the Olympics. But he does enough in the jumps and makes up for it elsewhere to score well overall.

    Jason's personal best in TES is 81+. Had he been at Worlds and turned in his personal best TES, he only would have been behind Hanyu, Fernandez and Machida in TES.

    Junior Worlds 2013
    SP: 3A +0.86
    FS: 3A-2T +0.14; 3A +1.00

    Nebelhorn Trophy
    SP: 3A + 0.86
    FS: 3A+3T +0.57; 3A<< -1.50

    Skate America
    SP: 3A +1.14
    FS: 3A<< -1.50 (fall); 3A-1T -2.14

    Trophee Eric Bompard
    SP: 3A +1.14
    FS: 3A-2T -0.14; 1A

    U.S. Nationals
    SP: 3A +0.29
    FS: 3A-3T +1.43; 3A< -1.00

    Olympics (Team Event)
    FS: 3A-3T +0.71; 3A< -0.86

    Olympics (Individual Event)
    SP: 3A +0.86
    FS: 3A-3T< -2.71; 3A< -3.00

    Since Jr. Worlds last year he has made 3 triple axel attempts at each competition. Since Junior Worlds, Jason has been 6/6 in getting the 3A with +GOE in the short program.

    The problem with his 3A has been with the free skate, and more specifically the second 3A in the program. He is 6/7 with the opening 3A combo (and 4/7 for getting +GOE) but he is only 2/7 for the second 3A attempt (and just 1/7 for positive GOE).

    Since Junior Worlds: Jason got the jump ratified (no UR, no pop) 14 out of 20 attempts (70 percent). He only popped the jump once out of 20 (5 percent) and only fell once (1 percent).

    He does tend to two-foot the jump when he messes up, as a result his +GOE 3A rate is much lower he got +GOE 10 out of 20 attempts (50 percent).

    The biggest hurdle with his 3A is specifically the second 3A in his program. When you take out the second 3A attempt in the FS out of the statistics, his ratification rate is 92 percent and his +GOE rate is 76 percent.

    He also messed up that second attempt (turnout) when I watched him practice at Nationals, which tells me it's a mental thing. What also convinces me that it's a mental thing is that there when I watch him practice the jump , I'd say he was about 95 percent (which matches reports from other practices).
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 03-31-2014 at 02:25 PM.

  3. #978
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kalina View Post
    Your ability of putting together so many falsehoods in one post always manages to surprise me. I'd almost forgotten why I'd put you on ignore
    .
    Hi Kalina ! may be it’s better if you continue to put me on ignore

  4. #979
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    ...
    Your post are always useful, thank you very much! =) Iwas the one who talked about Hanyu's salchow, but I was using it in a hyperbole to illustrate jeremy's (in)consistence, not jason's... I knw pretty well that jason has turned in good technical scores, but I would say that most of that are from his spin proportionally more than his jumps and there's where it lays his strenght

  5. #980
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    Quote Originally Posted by jace93 View Post
    Your post are always useful, thank you very much! =) Iwas the one who talked about Hanyu's salchow, but I was using it in a hyperbole to illustrate jeremy's (in)consistence, not jason's... I knw pretty well that jason has turned in good technical scores, but I would say that most of that are from his spin proportionally more than his jumps and there's where it lays his strenght
    Yes, I do realize the context, however, it definitely triggered my point regarding how all men have inconsistency in jumps.

    As for his TES coming from jumps vs spins: he has to be somewhat good at jumps because even with all level 4 everything, it's not nearly worth as much as his jumps.

    At the Olympics, Jason scored 45.39 in TES. He scored 17.23 in spins + steps, which is just 38 percent of the total TES score. The rest came from his three jumping passes (28.16 or 62 percent).

    Here's how he ranked relative to the rest of the top 12 (percent of total score):

    Yuzuru: 37.46 (68 percent)
    Peter: 33.52 (71 percent)
    Patrick: 32.10 (63 percent)
    Brian: 30.83 (68 percent)
    Alexander: 30.71 (67 percent)
    Yan: 29.87 (66 percent)
    Javier: 28.38 (64 percent)
    Jason: 28.16 (62 percent)
    Michal: 26.06 (62 percent)
    Denis: 25.95 (60 percent)
    Tatsuki: 23.94 (58 percent)
    Daisuke: 23.92 (57 percent)

    This exercise, I think illustrates the importance of being consistent. Had the other guys been more consistent on their quads, Jason would be a whole lot farther down in the standings.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 03-31-2014 at 03:51 PM.

  6. #981
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post

    Yurusu: 3

    Sorry for offtopic but it just reminded me when B.ESP guys created Yazura and Yazanuri

  7. #982
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    Quote Originally Posted by HanDomi View Post
    Sorry for offtopic but it just reminded me when B.ESP guys created Yazura and Yazanuri
    Actually I'm off topic since Jason wasn't at worlds. :P Glad you got a laugh out of my butterfingers.

  8. #983
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    So I find it sort of crazy that people consider Jason a terrible jumper because he isn't 100 percent on the 3A. It's just one jump out of many.
    I don't consider him a terrible jumper at all,I was just trying to say that he is not above average technically.He has trouble with his 3A,Hanyu has trouble with his second type of quad and I think it' s a big difference considerring how solid all his other jumps are

    and yes see now that he doesn't < as much as I thought,but he still does it way too often and you can't deny that his technique isn't that good on this jump,but the media/some of his fans are saying that he 'mastered' it

    Hanyu landing the 4S is a gamble,but as you say that the second axel in Jason's program must be a mental thing,I can say the same thing about Yuzuru's 4S,he lands it during ice shows,his success rate in practice reports is abnormally high,in Sochi during the 2 weeks period he fell only during one day and did multiple ones on the other days but the difference between Yuzu&Jason is that is that he has the correct technique down(rotation,air position,height,ice coverage),the only thing missing is the landing,while Jason imh needs to relearn the jump or work with someone who can correct him.Sooner or later Hanyu is going to land the S consistenly just like his T and the fact that Jason is landing it like this is not a good sign.

  9. #984
    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryusa5 View Post
    I don't consider him a terrible jumper at all,I was just trying to say that he is not above average technically.He has trouble with his 3A,Hanyu has trouble with his second type of quad and I think it' s a big difference between his

    and yes see now that he doesn't < as much as I thought,but he still does it way too often and you can't deny that his technique isn't that good on this jump,it took him so long to include it and the media/some of his fans are saying that he 'mastered' it

    Hanyu landing the 4S is a gamble,but as you say that the second axel in Jason's program must be a mental thing,I can say the same thing about Yuzuru's 4S,he lands it during ice shows,his success rate in practice reports is abnormally high,in Sochi during the 2 weeks period he fell only during one day and did multiple ones on the other days but the difference between Yuzu&Jason is that is that he has the correct technique down,the only thing missing is the landing,while Jason imh needs to relearn the jump or work with someone who can correct him.Sooner or later Hanyu is going to land the S consistenly just like his T and the fact that Jason is landing it like this is not a good sign.
    But I do think he mastered it. You don't get a 3A 7/7 times in a SP with +GOE if you aren't consistent with it.

    Also consistency =/= technique, as some has discussed in the best technique thread. I don't think Jason has the best technique with the 3A, but I don't think it's as poor as you seem to insist. In fact, the main issue I see with that 3A in the FS is that he doesn't generate enough speed when he's going into that jump.

    Also regarding success rate in practice: Watching Jason practice at Nationals, he was pretty much spot on with that 3A the whole time -- EXCEPT when he was doing that second 3A in the FS run through.

    Mastery of something doesn't mean you get 100 percent. I mean if you are going to pick on Jason for bad technique on his 3A because he hasn't had 100 percent execution with it in competition, then I can point to a lot of other skaters who probably should be pegged for "bad technique" on their jumps.

    As to whether he is above average technically, it's a YMMV. Looking at seasons best TES scores in the SP:

    Yuzuru: 54.84 (2014 Olympics)
    Tatsuki: 52.82 (2014 Worlds)
    Patrick: 52.70 (2013 Trophee Eric Bompard)
    Maxim: 51.78 (2013 Rostelecom Cup)
    Javier: 51.43 (2014 Worlds)
    Daisuke: 50.41 (2013 NHK Trophy)
    Han: 50.25 (2013 Cup of China)
    Nobu: 48.87 (2013 Nebelhorn Trophy)
    Tomas: 47.83 (2014 Worlds)
    Peter: 47.26 (2014 Olympics)
    Jason: 45.98 (2013 Trophee Eric Bompard)
    Brian: 45.11 (2014 Olympics)
    Kozuka: 44.89 (2014 Worlds)

    Jason is just outside the top 10 in TES even with not having a quad. I would say that's a good argument for being above average. Is he excellent? No, of course not (50+ is where I would say that applies). But above average? Yes.

    ETA: And if you want to get especially nerdy and technical. Here is what "average" in TES at the Olympics and Worlds were in the SP for those who made the final cut (top 24):

    Olympics: 41.80
    Worlds: 39.36

    So technically, Jason's TES is above average.

    I'll do FS later on. Sorry to clog up the thread.....and thanks for indulging my data nerdiness.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 03-31-2014 at 05:08 PM.

  10. #985
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    I think TEB and SC and the GPF are good indications that his jumps were better this season. He just mentally couldn't hold it together in Sochi and caved to the immense pressure placed on him. He doesn't need a jump coach to do a 2A properly, and obviously nerves got to him.
    Totally agree!

  11. #986
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mrs. P View Post
    Mastery of something doesn't mean you get 100 percent. I mean if you are going to pick on Jason for bad technique on his 3A because he hasn't had 100 execution with it in competition, then I can point to a lot of other skaters who probably should be pegged for "bad technique" on their jumps.
    yeah I get what you mean,but the only reason why I mentioned Jason was because someone mentioned him,I do agree he is above average as a complete skater because he is saved by his artistry and he has really nice programs,but I don't really consider his jumps all that much,he has other qualities,and imo to be above average technically you have to have really solid jumps, a great 3A and preferably a quad but then again this is just my opinion,and yes I was talking only about jumps

    and no his technique isn't all that bad,but of course I would love it is he improves it.I guess I'm a bit dissapointed because his 3A was hyped for years,and when he finally included it the overall result wasn't exactly what I expected

  12. #987
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryusa5 View Post
    yeah I get what you mean,but the only reason why I mentioned Jason was because someone mentioned him,I do agree he is above average as a complete skater because he is saved by his artistry and he has really nice programs,but I don't really consider his jumps all that much,he has other qualities,and imo to be above average technically you have to have really solid jumps, a great 3A and preferably a quad but then again this is just my opinion,and yes I was talking only about jumps

    and no his technique isn't all that bad,but of course I would love it is he improves it.I guess I'm a bit dissapointed because his 3A was hyped for years,and when he finally included it the overall result wasn't exactly what I expected
    Who hyped his 3A? Certainly not me! If Jason got any hype, it's cause he's FARED better than expected this season.

    I would be last person to say that Jason got as far as he did this season because of his 3A. In fact, many speculated he wouldn't get anywhere because he had got the 3A too late and lacked a quad.

    In fact when his Riverdance FS went viral, it was interesting to see how non-skating people covered it. Basically they kept framing it as "Oh this kid is awesome and his program is amazing but he doesn't have something called a quad."

    Deadspin framed it this way: http://deadspin.com/your-guide-to-ja...-bu-1522244096
    If he won silver at the U.S. championships, why are you so sure he won't win an Olympic medal?

    Because he can't do quadruple jumps, which is when a skater leaps into the air and completes four full rotations before landing. Quads are the most difficult jump to land, and in recent years they've essentially become a requirement for any Olympic hopeful. It doesn't matter how many perfect triples a skater lands; if he can't do a quad, he's probably not going to win anything.

    So, you're saying Jason Brown kind of sucks.

    No!

    Well then how the hell is he going to become a household name if he can't even do a damn quad?

    By being really, really awesome at everything else a figure skater does. Watching the biggest names in the sport go flying through the air and sticking quadruple toe loops is great, but there are other ways to put on a visually stunning program, and nobody understands that better than Brown. If the other skaters in the Olympics are the power pitchers of the sport, then consider Jason Brown the R.A. Dickey of figure skating. The other guys dominate with physical strength, but Brown dips and dances through his programs in a way that is just as impressive.

    Which brings us to the 2014 U.S. Figure Skating Championships. After placing third in the short program standings, Brown came out for his free skate and did this:


    I'm not going to pretend to be the biggest figure skating fan in the world, but there is something undeniably affecting about that routine. And judging by the standing ovation Brown got from the crowd and the 3.8 million views that video has accrued on YouTube, I'm not the only one who thinks so. There's a relentlessness to that program, one that makes it hard not to get swept up by the precision and fluidity of Brown's movements.
    My point is, nobody claimed Jason was special because he had the best jumps. Really it was everything else and he did ENOUGH (at least average, I suppose) on the jumps to get on the Olympic team and finish in the top 10 (and even be part of the final group at the Olympics!).

    But again, I think his 3A is not bad. When he's hit the jump he's received +1 mostly in +GOE.

    I think the most EXCELLENT jumpers gets +2 and +3, but again I'd argue he has above average jumps for the most part since he gets at least +1 most with a few +2 added in. (His 3Z at his Olympics SP got +2 and +3).

    I'm going to start a new thread.... because this is way OT.
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 03-31-2014 at 05:46 PM.

  13. #988
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    Technically above average to me means knowing how to land the basic jumps well and consistently and having very good skating skills and athletic ability, so that would include most of the top skaters. Chan is the best in skating skills because he has far above average blade mastery due to practicing figures. Jason is above average technically IMO. I don't feel that one has to have a quad to be considered above average in basic jump technique. A quad is not a jump, it is an extra revolution. Way too much emphasis is being placed upon that extra revolution which has turned the men's event upside down.

    I think Denis Ten has more instinctive artistry than Machida, but no one, especially in the men's sp at 2014 Worlds displayed more pure self-belief, determination and command of their program technically and artistically than Tatsuki Machida.

    Say and think what you will about Jason Brown. That young man is a dynamo on the ice -- pure magic the way he is able to command and mesmerize an audience bringing both Art & Sport together in superb fashion. A very difficult thing to do made to look so effortless through hard work, natural talent, excellent coaching, unique choreography, trying and failing and trying again, practice, charisma, musicality, performance ability par excellence! Enjoy the skaters you love everybody.


    ETA: BTW, there have been some skaters able to land quads who look horrendous doing so, or have not great jump technique. Skating is a mixed bag.

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    Thanks for all the good discussion, esp by Art & Sport and Mrs. P. I wanted to add a couple of things to the discussion.

    1) Originally Jason's 2nd triple axel in Riverdance was mid-program. I saw him run the program in practice back in September where it was in the middle and he fell on it but landed everything else - it was a full on run through. (So cool to get a front row seat!) Probably as he gets stronger and more consistent with the axel he'll be able to move it back to later in the program. Great kid, btw, he was so gracious in talking with us, a sweetheart, just as he appears on TV.

    2) I thought Jeremy's free skate score was OK, though not sure about some of the downgrades - as was Jeremy (the reason he was unhappy with his score - he said he'd have to check the protocols). However, he was underscored in the short program in both GOE and PCS. The fall on the quad did not interrupt the flow and he skated the program really well with energy. Even so, many judges gave him PCS in the 7s, only one gave him anything 9 or above. Had he been given PCS as he deserved, he would have finished 4th overall.

    That's all!

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