What if Yuna Kim had kept Orser as coach?

CarneAsada said:

Mao and Yuna have never skated clean without mistakes in the same competition, so if you want, you could also say Yuna "only" won something over Mao if Mao had a mistake. And Caro's jumps in this WC were UR? Do show me where it says so on the protocol. This was a very strict technical panel and I don't see a single call for Kostner. Kim is hardly the only one with great technique on jumps, and she in fact has received numerous edge calls for her flip. Kostner, on the other hand, has received no edge calls for either her flip or her Lutz, ever.

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FYI, Yuna received one edge call this quad (...controversially so, since afterwards, multiple commentators looked at it and didn't think it was deserved), and one "e" call during the 2008-2009 season and multiple "!" calls during that same season. Edge calls in one season that quad and in one segment of one competition this quad don't disqualify her flip technique from being considered great. Yuna had one of the best 3F/3T combinations of all time. Kostner's is just as good in terms of height/distance/flow, but Yuna could do a transition prior to her 3F/3T, which I don't recall Kostner ever doing.

Btw, has Mao ever skated perfectly in both the SP and FS in the same competition as a senior? Can you recall? I'm sure she did at Nationals, but can't recall if she did at any international competitions. It's ok if she got the lutz call, but no URs, DGs, step-outs/two-foots/pops.

I do think it's funny that neither were clean in the SP+FS at the same competition, but that's probably due to them each rarely skating cleanly in both the SP+FS in a major competition, period.

jaylee said:

FYI, Yuna received one edge call this quad (...controversially so, since afterwards, multiple commentators looked at it and didn't think it was deserved), and one "e" call during the 2008-2009 season and multiple "!" calls during that same season. Edge calls in one season that quad and in one segment of one competition this quad don't disqualify her flip technique from being considered great. Yuna had one of the best 3F/3T combinations of all time. Kostner's is just as good in terms of height/distance/flow, but Yuna could do a transition prior to her 3F/3T, which I don't recall Kostner ever doing.

Btw, has Mao ever skated perfectly in both the SP and FS in the same competition as a senior? Can you recall? I'm sure she did at Nationals, but can't recall if she did at any international competitions. It's ok if she got the lutz call, but no URs, DGs, step-outs/two-foots/pops.

I do think it's funny that neither were clean in the SP+FS at the same competition, but that's probably due to them each rarely skating cleanly in both the SP+FS in a major competition, period.

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I don't think the edge calls whether deserved or not disqualify her flip technique from being considered great, but it does annoy me slightly when I hear fans claim "Yuna is the only one with textbook perfect jumps." Kostner telegraphs and has received several gift medals throughout her career, but claiming she has bad technique or chronic underrotations on her clean jumps is dumb.

RE Mao, the closest she got to a perfect SP+FS was probably Worlds 2010. Both 3A-2T combinations were downgraded (by Amano, so make of that what you will) but otherwise no errors and full technical content. If you count her first senior GP season, then she also went clean at the 2005 GPF. She has never gone fully clean in both segments during this quad. I don't think she's ever gone clean at Nationals either unless you count 2006-07 where she did a 2A-2T (planned 3T) and the 3-3 in her SP may have had a slight 2-foot. At 2009-10 Nationals she again came close, but her 3A-2T in the SP was downgraded and she did 2A-2T (planned 3A) in the long. I believe Yuna has gone totally clean 3 times as a senior? 2010 Vancouver, 2013 Worlds, 2014 Sochi?

CarneAsada said:

I don't think the edge calls whether deserved or not disqualify her flip technique from being considered great, but it does annoy me slightly when I hear fans claim "Yuna is the only one with textbook perfect jumps." Kostner telegraphs and has received several gift medals throughout her career, but claiming she has bad technique or chronic underrotations on her clean jumps is dumb.

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I agree with you that Yuna is not the only one with textbook technique. And I agree that Kostner doesn't have bad technique at all, though her inability to put difficult transitions preceding her jumps (excluding the loop) is a limitation. As for underrotations, Kostner does not consistently underrotate, that is true. But on occasion, she has underrotated and gotten away with it, like her 3T/3T in the 2013 Worlds SP. Had that been downgraded as it should've been, she would've ended up behind Mao. I didn't see any UR issues with her jumps at this Worlds though.

RE Mao, the closest she got to a perfect SP+FS was probably Worlds 2010. Both 3A-2T combinations were downgraded (by Amano, so make of that what you will) but otherwise no errors and full technical content. If you count her first senior GP season, then she also went clean at the 2005 GPF. She has never gone fully clean in both segments during this quad. I don't think she's ever gone clean at Nationals either unless you count 2006-07 where she did a 2A-2T (planned 3T) and the 3-3 in her SP may have had a slight 2-foot. At 2009-10 Nationals she again came close, but her 3A-2T in the SP was downgraded and she did 2A-2T (planned 3A) in the long. I believe Yuna has gone totally clean 3 times as a senior? 2010 Vancouver, 2013 Worlds, 2014 Sochi?

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Ok, thanks. Kinda sad that 2010 Worlds was the closest she got to a perfect SP+FS and had those downgrades, but since calling at Vancouver was kinda relaxed, they were strict at Worlds (same as this time around, actually). I'm sure the universe would've exploded had Yuna and Mao gone clean in both SP & FS at the same competition. Probably best that it never happened.

As a senior, yes, Yuna was "perfect" at those 3 competitions that you named. She was also clean in both SP & FS at 2009 TEB, though she wasn't technically perfect there since she deliberately omitted the 3F in the FS.

Sorry, but such a stupid thread. Even Yuna wouldn't be in 13 Worlds and Sochi. She got motivated while she's been training w/ Korean mates in Korea. That's why she kept doing competition not retired. She was sick of staying abroad for training. Korean coaches did great great great job w/ Yuna.

It wouldn't have mattered. As long as one of the Russian girls skated clean, the gold was going to a Russian.

CarneAsada said:

Mao and Yuna have never skated clean without mistakes in the same competition, so if you want, you could also say Yuna "only" won something over Mao if Mao had a mistake. And Caro's jumps in this WC were UR? Do show me where it says so on the protocol. This was a very strict technical panel and I don't see a single call for Kostner. Kim is hardly the only one with great technique on jumps, and she in fact has received numerous edge calls for her flip. Kostner, on the other hand, has received no edge calls for either her flip or her Lutz, ever.

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Yeah, sorry about that, I had mistaken Kostner with Yulia in this competition; she had no UR, indeed, although many times falls are due to UR. I would not call the edge calls on the flip "numerous"; the one in WC2013 was definitely a flat edge/slight inside edge, and should not have been called. Back on topic, what about Vancouver? I don't think Mao had any serious mistakes (pretty clean with one or two UR) yet she had 20+ pts below two absolutely flawless Yuna. And that is a pretty serious statement about Kostner, have you seen every single protocol for every single Kostner senior competition? I like her technique #2 after Yuna though.

As for the three clean competitions you mentioned, there was definitely a GPF or some grand prix events where she skated clean, I recall one from the 2009-2010 season.

ginal said:

It wouldn't have mattered. As long as one of the Russian girls skated clean, the gold was going to a Russian.

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"Clean". But yeah, 100% agree with that!

"Clean". But yeah, 100% agree with that![/QUOTE]

Yes you are right. I meant unless both of them totally fell on their butts.