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Thread: 2014 Worlds - Ladies Free Skating

  1. #1516
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Other than Yu Na's triple lutz and Slutskaya's triple loop there isnt any women who can do any jump of similar quality to Ito and Harding, so by your logic no women can any jump that is acceptable or should count for anything.
    Harding had that horrid bent leg going up into her lutz, and she had a lot of issues keeping her jumps on axis. She was a compulsive tilter.

    Ito had a Lip and tended to wrap a lot of her jumps.

    Both were phenoms and pushed the sport forward technically. Even Yamaguchi was trying Triple Axels in practices because she felt the pressure. But I think people really overate the "Quality" of their jumps. Just cause a jump is big doesn't mean it is impeccable.

    I do think Ito was superior to Harding in that her technique was much more sound overall. She could do her jumps out of transitions in 6.0 and that kind of technical skating didn't really become commonplace until IJS started basically pushing skaters to do it. Most skaters in 6.0 telegraphed noticeably.

    Both Ito and Harding would have been buried under IJS and would likely have struggled to get higher than +2 GOE on most of their jumps because their style of jumping simply isn't as good as a lot of girls these days.

    Mao's triple axel is fine when she rotates it. She has rotated clean triple axels, even with her larger pre-rotation she has done some that have barely if any hook on the landing which still gave her more than enough in-air rotation, and she was rightfully credited with the triple (though the judges weren't throwing +3 GOEs at, and they shouldn't have in the ones I've seen).

    The only line of thought I object to is that the judges should be "lenient" on a skater just for trying a harder jump in an effort to "advance the sport."

    That makes, literally, no sense whatsoever.

  2. #1517
    Best comeback EVOR! zamboni step's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    Harding had that horrid bent leg going up into her lutz, and she had a lot of issues keeping her jumps on axis. She was a compulsive tilter.

    Ito had a Lip and tended to wrap a lot of her jumps.

    Both were phenoms and pushed the sport forward technically. Even Yamaguchi was trying Triple Axels in practices because she felt the pressure. But I think people really overate the "Quality" of their jumps. Just cause a jump is big doesn't mean it is impeccable.

    I do think Ito was superior to Harding in that her technique was much more sound overall. She could do her jumps out of transitions in 6.0 and that kind of technical skating didn't really become commonplace until IJS started basically pushing skaters to do it. Most skaters in 6.0 telegraphed noticeably.

    Both Ito and Harding would have been buried under IJS and would likely have struggled to get higher than +2 GOE on most of their jumps because their style of jumping simply isn't as good as a lot of girls these days.

    Mao's triple axel is fine when she rotates it. She has rotated clean triple axels, even with her larger pre-rotation she has done some that have barely if any hook on the landing which still gave her more than enough in-air rotation, and she was rightfully credited with the triple (though the judges weren't throwing +3 GOEs at, and they shouldn't have in the ones I've seen).

    The only line of thought I object to is that the judges should be "lenient" on a skater just for trying a harder jump in an effort to "advance the sport."

    That makes, literally, no sense whatsoever.
    Ito may have lipped but I wouldn't view the leg-wrap as a technique flaw, I think it was simply because if she rotated any faster she would over-rotate, it was more of an open position than a leg-wrap, the one you assume just before you snap the jump close, and because of her height she couldn't snap it without over-rotating, so she didn't. She also had very good flow out of her jumps and I think she would have done pretty well under IJS considering her spins were more IJS friendly than a lot of the other skaters of her period and she had the SS and performance ability to go with it. She also had a decent amount of transitions she could have worked on bringing up to an IJS standard, I think she could have done pretty well if she had her 1989-1990 consistency about her.

  3. #1518
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    She can simply not pull in as tight on her rotations. That is what Sotnikova does to prevent overrotating her big triples.

    Ito's spinning was not good. A lot of her spins were done on the flats or back of her blades and she had no acceleration in her spins, so it's almost a pipedream to think she could do the type of IJS combination spins or get some of the bullets that skaters do with ease these days (i.e. 8 rotations in each spin). Surya probably had the most IJS-worthy spins back then, but she had her own issues.

    Ito's air position was more wrapped than open on any jump that didn't involve a weight distribution change. Some of her jumps were more wrapped than others. She seemed to wrap jumps that didn't involve an in-air change of weight distribution (Flip, Loop) more than those that did. On the back end of 3/3 combinations, the air position was much better.

    Compare her leg on her Flips, Lutzes, and Loops to her Toes, Sals, and Axels. The former are more wrapped while the latter are more "loose" (but still somewhat wrapped).

    The difference is clear just watching the video in real time, at a pretty crappy resolution: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hupxBUve6Q

    Yes, she had great flow coming out of her jumps. Jumps were her thing.

    I probably shouldn't have mentioned IJS because her programs were not designed for IJS.

  4. #1519
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    Quote Originally Posted by zamboni step View Post
    We've been talking about her axel technique, nothing else, I never spoke about 3A technique or 2A technique, because they're the same jump, so they have the same technique. You can't have good 2A technique but bad 3A technique. If you have a bad axel, you have a bad axel. Look at Chan, bad 3A, bad 2A. Axel technique is evident, not matter the amount of rotations you're trying to complete. Her 3A most certainly is good enough, I honestly find it hilarious that you're so blind as to claim that a woman who is one of the only three to land a 3A reasonably consistently could possibly have not pristine axel technique. If she were making the axel through raw power she wouldn't need to bend forward going in, because that's why she does it, to generate extra power. Who do you think has good axel technique then because I must have somehow missed her for however many seasons she's been competing. Say Carolina and you'll have finished yourself off in this discussion.

    Mao does the same "bending forward on take-off" on both the 2A and 3A. Her technique simply isn't good enough to get enough power, height and distance to make the 3.5 rotations on the 3A. Mao isn't able to land the triple axel consistantly cleanly. It is way more often underrotated than fully rotated. Why do you think she most of the time has to finish the last 1/2 - 1/4 rotation on the ice? Because of great technique?

  5. #1520
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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    Mao does the same "bending forward on take-off" on both the 2A and 3A. Her technique simply isn't good enough to get enough power, height and distance to make the 3.5 rotations on that jump. Mao isn't able to land the triple axel consistantley cleanly. It is way more often underrotated than fully rotated. Why do you think she most of the time has to finish the last 1/2 - 1/4 rotation on the ice? Because of great technique?
    Lunging into an Axel jump is not good technique so I'm not sure why people are arguing with you (or anyone else) about that.

  6. #1521
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    Reading these posts, you would think that Mao kowtows at her takeoff, which in fact is NOT the case. Alot of skaters have the SLIGHT bending forward at takeoff, and so why is Mao's technique being oh so singled out here? And if you're gonna mention Mao's slight bend forward, why not mention Mao's superior setup edges and superior air position in the same breath?

    Sheesh.

  7. #1522
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Reading these posts, you would think that Mao kowtows at her takeoff, which in fact is NOT the case. Alot of skaters have the SLIGHT bending forward at takeoff, and so why is Mao's technique being oh so singled out here? And if you're gonna mention Mao's slight bend forward, why not mention Mao's superior setup edges and superior air position in the same breath?

    Sheesh.
    Because the person making those comments is a Mao hater simple. I just cant believe people are engaging him HERE. This thread is for everyone who participated in worlds. And this person and others manage to make it about Mao's techniques. Sheesh. Open another thread,but to use a thread that is about ladies performance to spread this....

  8. #1523
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    Why does pointing out deficiencies in a skater's skating, technique, whatever.... automatically make one a hater.

    Isn't that just as disgusting as calling someone a <skater>bot?

  9. #1524
    Custom Title Minze2001's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    Why does pointing out deficiencies in a skater's skating, technique, whatever.... automatically make one a hater.

    Isn't that just as disgusting as calling someone a <skater>bot?
    No what makes ONE a hater is always point out the deficiencies of ONLY ONE SKATER. And using a thread about Everyone's performance to say the same thing over and over. I said open another thread, but to highjack one where the performance of other skaters should be disscussed is annoying

    Also, this particular person had a whole thread about the subject in the mainbaord, he or she could go back a refresh that one.

  10. #1525
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    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    Why does pointing out deficiencies in a skater's skating, technique, whatever.... automatically make one a hater.

    Isn't that just as disgusting as calling someone a <skater>bot?
    Pointing out deficiencies of one skater at some particular point of a conversation does not make someone a hater. However, after reading several comments you can get an idea of the poster's intentions. I'm a Mao fan and I'm a Yuna fan too, and after having read tons of comments from haters from one side and the other it is not that difficult to identify those who just want to point out some technical issues and those who want to attack a skater. You can say that Mao has a tendency to underotate her axel or that it lacks power in comparison to the men's, and you can say that Yuna tends too gesticulate too much for your taste...however when someone states that Mao is unable to jump a triple axel and underotates every single jump she attemps or Yuna has fake artistry, then you start to doubt the poster's intention. And I apologize for mentioning Yuna here, just an example.

  11. #1526
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minze2001 View Post
    No what makes ONE a hater is always point out the deficiencies of ONLY ONE SKATER. And using a thread about Everyone's performance to say the same thing over and over. I said open another thread, but to highjack one where the performance of other skaters should be disscussed is annoying

    Also, this particular person had a whole thread about the subject in the mainbaord, he or she could go back a refresh that one.

    Agree, and it is quite annoying.

  12. #1527
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    Ito had a Lip and tended to wrap a lot of her jumps.
    The wrap doesn't mean anything at all for her jumps. That's just her style. It wasn't a bad air position problem and it made sense given her immense amplitude on the jumps. She didn't really Lip either, she rolls back onto the inside edge by the time of the takeoff.

    Her jumps deserved massive +GOE most of the time. No female has ever done a 2Axel, 3Axel, 3Toe+3Toe, or 2Loop+3Loop as well as she did. You also have to realize that new, better methods would have been used in her coaching if she came up 25 years later. She would be even better. It's not wise of you to compare her to the current day.

  13. #1528
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    Trying to gauge which disciplines have the most fan poster haters. Ladies is winning this season.

  14. #1529
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    I really love watching people jump with leg wraps. Looks so much nicer in the air. And Midori's leg wrap was so beautiful.

    Take her 3Axel from my favorite program she ever did (which happened to be a professional comp) at around :50 seconds in : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Dg3jlLS9W4

    Such a beautiful leg wrap. <3 It's even more pronounced in the double loop and double axel she does near the end. (And she did a triple-triple here too. Really wish they still had pro comps where the pros had to keep up their technique.)

    I know people in forums criticize leg wraps as incorrect, but I love them.

  15. #1530
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    Quote Originally Posted by cptnhastings View Post
    I know people in forums criticize leg wraps as incorrect, but I love them.
    Do you love Yukari Nakano too? Loving Midori Ito's air position does not equal loving all leg wraps. I like hers but not Yukari's.

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