2014 Worlds - Ladies Free Skating

hurrah · Apr 6, 2014

David21 said:
You probaby also think that Mao's doesn't bend forward on the take-off which is fact. Or that she often underrotates the axel and that all the > calls she gets on it are unfair on her etc.

What's your problem? What does it matter if Mao has a slight forward bend as part of the take-off as long as it's not affecting her edges or her entry speed? It's not like Mao's the only one who does it like that. Hanyu does it too, you know. Are you gonna tell me Hanyu's triple-axel technique, whose jump Mishin was seen recording on camera, the guy who may be the first person to ever succeed a 4-axel, stinks too?

Mao's triple-axel is a thing of beauty. :love:

mary01 · Apr 6, 2014

hurrah said:
What's your problem? What does it matter if Mao has a slight forward bend as part of the take-off as long as it's not affecting her edges or her entry speed? It's not like Mao's the only one who does it like that. Hanyu does it too, you know. Are you gonna tell me Hanyu's triple-axel technique, whose jump Mishin was seen recording on camera, the guy who may be the first person to ever succeed a 4-axel, stinks too?

Mao's triple-axel is a thing of beauty.

It truly is :love:

That jump alone made me speechless and immensely impressed the first time I saw it as a casual viewer, watching figure skating by pure coincidence, thinking how is it possible for a person to able to do so many rotations in the air, and have the height, tight air position and beautifully controlled landing like it's no big deal, the WOW factor of Mao's 3A should not be taken lightly, because it is really impressive and gives a strong first hand impression of the skater and the sport.

David21 · Apr 6, 2014

hurrah said:
What's your problem? What does it matter if Mao has a slight forward bend as part of the take-off as long as it's not affecting her edges or her entry speed? It's not like Mao's the only one who does it like that. Hanyu does it too, you know.

Yeah, this is great logic. Others do it, too, so it's not bad and shouldn't be penalized.

minze · Apr 6, 2014

David21 said:
Yeah, this is great logic. Others do it, too, so it's not bad and shouldn't be penalized.

I thought you wrote your last post about this subject. You promised a couple of pages back. You have highjacked a page about world championships to repeat the same thing over and over.

FS_rrb · Apr 6, 2014

David21 said:
Yeah, this is great logic. Others do it, too, so it's not bad and shouldn't be penalized.

I don't want to keep talking and talking about this topic because it seems that we all have quite opposite opinions about it...but just one last comment. I think some of us mention other skaters not because we feel that "if others do it too, it's not bad" but because we are a little tired of people (here, on youtube, etc) just pointing out Mao's problems as if she was constantly inventing new tricks to cheat the system. Some people who criticize her constantly are haters, others only figure skating fans who like to scrutinize everything in detail, but it's understandable that Mao fans react strongly to some comments about her.

The fact that other skaters do some things wrong too does not mean it's not bad, but it is at least an indication that some of Mao's mistakes are not that rare and are generally not pointed out as bad technique. And, BTW, I see nothing wrong with Mao's take off in the axel...she used to bend her leg a lot (especially around 2009-2010) but she doesn't do that anymore, I think. Her axel has changed a lot.

Components · Apr 6, 2014

SkatingFun said:
for Double Axel or Triple Axel, skid is the technique lots of elite skaters use during take-off. That should NOT be considered as pre-rotate.

You seems not knowing much about skating techniques?!

Who's talking about a skid? I'm talking about the instance at which the blade leaves the ice. I have a skid on my Salchow take-off, but I do not take it past forwards on the take-off. There's a difference between skidding and popping the jump off and skippding and then rotating too far on the ice before popping the jump off. There are different ways of performing an Axel that are used by different skaters:

1. Rolling up to the Toe and Pivoting off the toe up into the jump.
2. Skidding the take-off and then jumping off the toe.
3. Jumping off a straight edge (harder to control - hardly anyone does Axels harder than Doubles this way).

What technique the skater employs does not means they should get more leeway in abuse of on-ice prerotation.

And when I say prefotation, I mean blade to ice. Sometimes the skaters upper body may look fine but their blades tell a different story.

Asada is often quite a bit past a quarter turn pivot on the take-off of her Triple Axel - she's often almost backwards when her blade leaves the ice - and when you couple that with a 40 degree UR that's a significant chunk of in-air rotation cut out from the jump. A strict technical panel will '<' a jump like that, and it's totally warranted.

Again, the reason why Toe Axels are '<' is precicely because of this issue. When you do the toe loop that way, it causes the picking foot to rotate past forwards which is too much for a toe loop. Even if the jump lands completely backwards, the technical panel will still '<' the jump. Not because of any underrotation, but because of the take-off pre-rotation. I, personally, would not be surprised if Mao has suffered '<' on 3As because of the take-off.

zamboni step · Apr 6, 2014

zamboni step said:
No woman who can land a 3A could possibly have bad axel technique.

David21 said:
Useing this logic, Lysacek wouldn't have bad axel technique, either. You can land a jump and still have bad technique (btw I didn't say that Mao's is bad; I said it's not good) on it.

Since when was Lysacek a woman???? Lysacek could muscle his way through it with bad technique, Mao simply doesn't have that much power, incredible as her level of axel power is. A woman simply can't afford anything other than excellent axel technique when it comes to landing 3A.

Meoima · Apr 6, 2014

zamboni step said:
Since when was Lysacek a woman????

Plushy stated that a quad-less champion made the men field look like ladies/ice dance event (or so I remember, not sure if it's him). :laugh:

zamboni step · Apr 6, 2014

Meoima said:
Plushy stated that a quad-less champion made the men field look like ladies/ice dance event (or so I remember, not sure if it's him).

It really strikes me how he couldn't tell how incredibly offensive that statement was.

pangtongfan · Apr 6, 2014

Plushenko was just being polite and not saying the real truth at hand. Which would be: "It is one thing if a quadless skater with stunning artistry and/or basic skating skills (eg- Chan or Takahashi) wins the gold, or someone with some of the most beautiful jumps, spins, and basics (Oda) wins without a quad. A skater though is a generic "good" at best at any aspect of skating, and who doesnt have a quad and does the worlds poorest 3axels which should be downgraded winning the Oly Gold, especialy if I so much stand up and land a quad is a joke." In which case he would be absolutely right, but that would be far less kind and sensitive to Evan's feelings than how he put it.

A lady skating Evan's program wouldnt deserve the OGM over Yu Na that year. Probably not even silver over Mao, atleast she did her 3 axels properly unlike Evan's which mostly should have goten an <, has much better spins and spirals than Evan, and much nicer programs and artistry. So yes Evan winning does make it the level of a ladies event, something you cant even say about some of Chan's bogus 4 or 5 fall wins, atleast he is still skating a mens level difficulty and program.

David21 · Apr 6, 2014

zamboni step said:
Since when was Lysacek a woman???? Lysacek could muscle his way through it with bad technique, Mao simply doesn't have that much power, incredible as her level of axel power is. A woman simply can't afford anything other than excellent axel technique when it comes to landing 3A.

Well, Mao rarely lands her axel cleanly anyway. An underroated jump is not clean. If we want to compare the quality of her triple axel or her axel technique with other skaters then we should take other female skaters like Ito or Harding who also did triple axels and their triple axels were clearly better than Mao's.

zamboni step · Apr 6, 2014

David21 said:
Well, Mao rarely lands her axel cleanly anyway. An underroated jump is not clean. If we want to compare the quality of her triple axel or her axel technique with other skaters then we should take other female skaters like Ito or Harding who also did triple axels and their triple axels were clearly better than Mao's.

So unless your technique is better than the absolute best, it's not good, just average. That makes sense and isn't weird and inaccurate at all. And they weren't under-rotated. :rolleye:

Actually if you want to talk about her technique, compare her 2A to others, name one skater at worlds this year with better 2A technique.

pangtongfan · Apr 6, 2014

David21 said:
Well, Mao rarely lands her axel cleanly anyway. An underroated jump is not clean. If we want to compare the quality of her triple axel or her axel technique with other skaters then we should take other female skaters like Ito or Harding who also did triple axels and their triple axels were clearly better than Mao's.

Other than Yu Na's triple lutz and Slutskaya's triple loop there isnt any women who can do any jump of similar quality to Ito and Harding, so by your logic no women can any jump that is acceptable or should count for anything.

David21 · Apr 6, 2014

zamboni step said:
So unless your technique is better than the absolute best, it's not good, just average. That makes sense and isn't weird and inaccurate at all. And they weren't under-rotated.

Actually if you want to talk about her technique, compare her 2A to others, name one skater at worlds this year with better 2A technique.

We've been talking about the 3A all he time and now you want to try to change the subject to the 2A because her 3A isn't good enough :laugh:

pangtongfan said:
Other than Yu Na's triple lutz and Slutskaya's triple loop there isnt any women who can do any jump of similar quality to Ito and Harding, so by your logic no women can any jump that is acceptable or should count for anything.

Nowhere did I say that Mao's 3A is not acceptable or shouldn't count for anything...I've been quite specific on Mao's shortcomings on her technique but her fanboys/-girls are negating those by saying that Mao's 3A "looks so impressive" or that "no other women currently can do a triple axel" or the extremely intelligent argument "other skaters have similar issues, even men" :rolleye:

zamboni step · Apr 6, 2014

David21 said:
We've been talking about the 3A all he time and now you want to try to change the subject to the 2A because her 3A isn't good enough

We've been talking about her axel technique, nothing else, I never spoke about 3A technique or 2A technique, because they're the same jump, so they have the same technique. You can't have good 2A technique but bad 3A technique. If you have a bad axel, you have a bad axel. Look at Chan, bad 3A, bad 2A. Axel technique is evident, not matter the amount of rotations you're trying to complete. Her 3A most certainly is good enough, I honestly find it hilarious that you're so blind as to claim that a woman who is one of the only three to land a 3A reasonably consistently could possibly have not pristine axel technique. If she were making the axel through raw power she wouldn't need to bend forward going in, because that's why she does it, to generate extra power. Who do you think has good axel technique then because I must have somehow missed her for however many seasons she's been competing. Say Carolina and you'll have finished yourself off in this discussion.

Components · Apr 6, 2014

pangtongfan said:
Other than Yu Na's triple lutz and Slutskaya's triple loop there isnt any women who can do any jump of similar quality to Ito and Harding, so by your logic no women can any jump that is acceptable or should count for anything.

Harding had that horrid bent leg going up into her lutz, and she had a lot of issues keeping her jumps on axis. She was a compulsive tilter.

Ito had a Lip and tended to wrap a lot of her jumps.

Both were phenoms and pushed the sport forward technically. Even Yamaguchi was trying Triple Axels in practices because she felt the pressure. But I think people really overate the "Quality" of their jumps. Just cause a jump is big doesn't mean it is impeccable.

I do think Ito was superior to Harding in that her technique was much more sound overall. She could do her jumps out of transitions in 6.0 and that kind of technical skating didn't really become commonplace until IJS started basically pushing skaters to do it. Most skaters in 6.0 telegraphed noticeably.

Both Ito and Harding would have been buried under IJS and would likely have struggled to get higher than +2 GOE on most of their jumps because their style of jumping simply isn't as good as a lot of girls these days.

Mao's triple axel is fine when she rotates it. She has rotated clean triple axels, even with her larger pre-rotation she has done some that have barely if any hook on the landing which still gave her more than enough in-air rotation, and she was rightfully credited with the triple (though the judges weren't throwing +3 GOEs at, and they shouldn't have in the ones I've seen).

The only line of thought I object to is that the judges should be "lenient" on a skater just for trying a harder jump in an effort to "advance the sport."

That makes, literally, no sense whatsoever.

zamboni step · Apr 6, 2014

Components said:
Harding had that horrid bent leg going up into her lutz, and she had a lot of issues keeping her jumps on axis. She was a compulsive tilter.

Ito had a Lip and tended to wrap a lot of her jumps.

Both were phenoms and pushed the sport forward technically. Even Yamaguchi was trying Triple Axels in practices because she felt the pressure. But I think people really overate the "Quality" of their jumps. Just cause a jump is big doesn't mean it is impeccable.

I do think Ito was superior to Harding in that her technique was much more sound overall. She could do her jumps out of transitions in 6.0 and that kind of technical skating didn't really become commonplace until IJS started basically pushing skaters to do it. Most skaters in 6.0 telegraphed noticeably.

Both Ito and Harding would have been buried under IJS and would likely have struggled to get higher than +2 GOE on most of their jumps because their style of jumping simply isn't as good as a lot of girls these days.

Mao's triple axel is fine when she rotates it. She has rotated clean triple axels, even with her larger pre-rotation she has done some that have barely if any hook on the landing which still gave her more than enough in-air rotation, and she was rightfully credited with the triple (though the judges weren't throwing +3 GOEs at, and they shouldn't have in the ones I've seen).

The only line of thought I object to is that the judges should be "lenient" on a skater just for trying a harder jump in an effort to "advance the sport."

That makes, literally, no sense whatsoever.

Ito may have lipped but I wouldn't view the leg-wrap as a technique flaw, I think it was simply because if she rotated any faster she would over-rotate, it was more of an open position than a leg-wrap, the one you assume just before you snap the jump close, and because of her height she couldn't snap it without over-rotating, so she didn't. She also had very good flow out of her jumps and I think she would have done pretty well under IJS considering her spins were more IJS friendly than a lot of the other skaters of her period and she had the SS and performance ability to go with it. She also had a decent amount of transitions she could have worked on bringing up to an IJS standard, I think she could have done pretty well if she had her 1989-1990 consistency about her.

Components · Apr 6, 2014

She can simply not pull in as tight on her rotations. That is what Sotnikova does to prevent overrotating her big triples.

Ito's spinning was not good. A lot of her spins were done on the flats or back of her blades and she had no acceleration in her spins, so it's almost a pipedream to think she could do the type of IJS combination spins or get some of the bullets that skaters do with ease these days (i.e. 8 rotations in each spin). Surya probably had the most IJS-worthy spins back then, but she had her own issues.

Ito's air position was more wrapped than open on any jump that didn't involve a weight distribution change. Some of her jumps were more wrapped than others. She seemed to wrap jumps that didn't involve an in-air change of weight distribution (Flip, Loop) more than those that did. On the back end of 3/3 combinations, the air position was much better.

Compare her leg on her Flips, Lutzes, and Loops to her Toes, Sals, and Axels. The former are more wrapped while the latter are more "loose" (but still somewhat wrapped).

The difference is clear just watching the video in real time, at a pretty crappy resolution: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hupxBUve6Q

Yes, she had great flow coming out of her jumps. Jumps were her thing.

I probably shouldn't have mentioned IJS because her programs were not designed for IJS.

David21 · Apr 6, 2014

zamboni step said:
We've been talking about her axel technique, nothing else, I never spoke about 3A technique or 2A technique, because they're the same jump, so they have the same technique. You can't have good 2A technique but bad 3A technique. If you have a bad axel, you have a bad axel. Look at Chan, bad 3A, bad 2A. Axel technique is evident, not matter the amount of rotations you're trying to complete. Her 3A most certainly is good enough, I honestly find it hilarious that you're so blind as to claim that a woman who is one of the only three to land a 3A reasonably consistently could possibly have not pristine axel technique. If she were making the axel through raw power she wouldn't need to bend forward going in, because that's why she does it, to generate extra power. Who do you think has good axel technique then because I must have somehow missed her for however many seasons she's been competing. Say Carolina and you'll have finished yourself off in this discussion.

Mao does the same "bending forward on take-off" on both the 2A and 3A. Her technique simply isn't good enough to get enough power, height and distance to make the 3.5 rotations on the 3A. Mao isn't able to land the triple axel consistantly cleanly. It is way more often underrotated than fully rotated. Why do you think she most of the time has to finish the last 1/2 - 1/4 rotation on the ice? Because of great technique?

Components · Apr 6, 2014

David21 said:
Mao does the same "bending forward on take-off" on both the 2A and 3A. Her technique simply isn't good enough to get enough power, height and distance to make the 3.5 rotations on that jump. Mao isn't able to land the triple axel consistantley cleanly. It is way more often underrotated than fully rotated. Why do you think she most of the time has to finish the last 1/2 - 1/4 rotation on the ice? Because of great technique?

Lunging into an Axel jump is not good technique so I'm not sure why people are arguing with you (or anyone else) about that.

2014 Worlds - Ladies Free Skating

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