Savchenko and Massot team up | Page 11 | Golden Skate

Savchenko and Massot team up

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
I guess it just comes down to how realistic Aliona is: we can't know for sure if she's realistic, but we can't know for sure she is not. I just find it hard to believe she's a deluded as you think. "Wanting the OGM" =/= "being unhappy with anything but the OGM"

Re: S/S vs. Pang/Tong in Sochi. Actually, Pang/Tong did win the free skate over S/S. But they were 6 (!) points back after the short program (stumbles on the side-by-side jumps). I do agree that P/T should've scored higher in both segments (and their skate was gloriously beautiful). I'm not certain who deserved the bronze in the end since both had errors (P/T had small errors in both programs, S/S had huge errors in the free).

P/T were the unluckiest team ever: two fourth place finishes at the Olympics, just missing a medal both times, then missing gold in 2010 because the legendary Shen/Zhao returned. But hey, they were 34 in Sochi, coming off injuries, and were still competitive. Who's to say Aliona won't be in Pyeongchang? ;)

Well, Aliona was quoted as saying that she will win OGM with Massot :slink::slink:

P&T were unlucky but I also think they outstayed their welcome, not that I don't think they deserve better or that they're fine skaters. In terms of talent, they were talented but limited. They had very little charisma. Their programs were distant copies of great Russian programs. They were also at times inconsistent which gave the judges enough excuses to mark them down even when their errors weren't as serious as their rivals.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
But at the time S/Z "retired" the first time, they had two Olympic bronze medals. Same as S/S. And three less World titles. Yes, you could say they were "better" in terms of programs, skating, consistency, ect. But I wonder, would we (because I agree with you) be hailing them as one of the greatest of all time if they hadn't come back and won Olympic gold? I think their story just proves you should come back and give it another go.

There's no point "blaming" either Robin or Aliona for Vancouver or Sochi. So, she fell on the throw 3A. Even if they landed it, I doubt they would've won, considering their other errors. They would've just gotten silver instead. Well, Robin had a whole slew of mistakes in Vancouver. Should we go blame him too? You're right--they (the two of them) didn't deliver on the Olympic stage. No need to play the blame game when acknowledging that.

The thing is, Aliona doesn't need to skate better in than twilight years than in her prime in order to win Olympic gold. She just needs to finally deliver on the Olympic stage--surely we can agree that Vancouver and Sochi were not good examples of S/S's skating? Aliona only needs to outskate her opponents, not her past self. Were Shen/Zhao in their physical prime in 2010? If she keeps herself injury-free, why not continue? Even if she and Massot come dead last in every competition, I don't think it'll tarnish S/S's legacy one bit. (Of course, if Aliona is very injured, I suggest she retire for the sake of her health. That's another argument altogether).

I do agree she should quit if Olympic gold is all that mattered to her--if she'd deem the following four years a waste the moment she misses gold. But if you and I can sit here speculating about her chances, I'm sure she knows what they are herself. More likely, she wants gold and will keep chasing it, but knows the road will be difficult and is willing to accept any result. I can't think of anyone being deluded enough to think otherwise. Only she can answer if continuing "matters" or not, but I see regrets being more likely for people who don't try, rather than people who gave it their best shot and just couldn't pull it off.

The problem for S&S is they were never really a dominant team when they had real competition, and in fact could practically never win when they had real competition, never mind dominate. They won their world titles first while Shen & Zhao were taking a break, and then when V&T were a brand new pair or missing. The only world title they won over a real opponent was 2012 over Volosozhar & Trankov and V&T finished 8th with a nightmarish 3 or 4 mistake short program and still lost out only by a fraction of a point in the end.

They also suffer by lack of consistency. They almost never skate clean programs, and almost all their major titles werent won with clean skates. Some of them were won with lots of errors- 2008 and even 2012 come to mind, plus they won their 2 Olympic medals with alot of mistakes.

I think Shen & Zhao were highly praised as one of the all time best even at the time of their presumed retirement in 2007. Even without the Olympic gold. In the cases of S&S they badly needed the Olympic gold to even make a case as a first tier all time great. Without it they are in the second tier at absolute best. I am not sure they even rank above teams like Volsozohar & Trankov or maybe even Totmianina & Marinin without it.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Yes, Artur Dmitriev, Protopopovs, Shen and Zhao are possibly the top 5 greatest pairs skaters to ever live. Irina Rodnina had the most medals but no one hailed her as one of the greatest.

LOL no. Irina Rodnina IS hailed as one of the greatest even today. Also have you ever heard of Gordeeva & Grinkov.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
LOL no. Irina Rodnina IS hailed as one of the greatest even today. Also have you ever heard of Gordeeva & Grinkov.

When people list their greatest top 5, they always say G&G, M&D, S&Z, B&S, etc. but Rodnina isn't that frequently mentioned. Medal count doesn't always translate to being the most beloved/admired.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
When people list their greatest top 5, they always say G&G, M&D, S&Z, B&S, etc. but Rodnina isn't that frequently mentioned. Medal count doesn't always translate to being the most beloved/admired.

I dont hear B&S mentioned hardly ever as one of the few best teams ever TBH. They are mostly remembered for the SLC fiasco more than for top echelon greatness, atleast outside of Russia. Irina Rodnina is much more revered than they are.
 

Skater Boy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 24, 2012
LOL no. Irina Rodnina IS hailed as one of the greatest even today. Also have you ever heard of Gordeeva & Grinkov.

S and Z are nothing compared to G and G and some may even say S and P and B and S were comparative. Shen and Zhao also lost some credibility due to their losses to T and M. I agree in principle that Aliona should do what she wants though practically I am not so sure. I hope she is skating for the sure joy and not an OGM. Might as well get K and S to commit then too
 

Rossig

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 15, 2014
When people list their greatest top 5, they always say G&G, M&D, S&Z, B&S, etc. but Rodnina isn't that frequently mentioned. Medal count doesn't always translate to being the most beloved/admired.

The reason is because Rodnina competed earlier than those 5 teams. People usually love those teams, they could have watched live. Lots of younger fans unfortunately even don't remember Rodnina.
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
I took Aliona's quote to mean, "I'm still here to fight, and I still want that OGM!" not "Well, I'll just waltz in there with little effort and be handed OGM." :laugh: It shows she's still healthy and hungry enough to stay competitive, not that she thinks OGM will be a cakewalk.

While S/S won in comparatively "weak" years, they ended their career with five world titles. Five. That's as many as Qing/Pang and Shen/Zhao combined. There are easy years and hard years, but why couldn't any the other teams have seized the moment during those easy years? Even if they were rarely perfect, they still did "just enough" for five different years.

Anyway, whether S/S is within a mile's distance of any of the greats isn't important. We'll see how Aliona's new partnership pans out. Why can't she be skating for sheer joy... and OGM? ;)
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
I took Aliona's quote to mean, "I'm still here to fight, and I still want that OGM!" not "Well, I'll just waltz in there with little effort and be handed OGM." :laugh: It shows she's still healthy and hungry enough to stay competitive, not that she thinks OGM will be a cakewalk.

While S/S won in comparatively "weak" years, they ended their career with five world titles. Five. That's as many as Qing/Pang and Shen/Zhao combined. There are easy years and hard years, but why couldn't any the other teams have seized the moment during those easy years? Even if they were rarely perfect, they still did "just enough" for five different years.

Anyway, whether S/S is within a mile's distance of any of the greats isn't important. We'll see how Aliona's new partnership pans out. Why can't she be skating for sheer joy... and OGM? ;)

How many medals you have doesn't mean anything to me. I only want medals for my favorite skaters for them to be happy and for them to have enough accolades to command show opportunities. But the smart skaters realize very quickly that life offers a lot more to be happy about, not just OGM. Sometimes people just want to skate 2 good performances and not care about medals. How many medals is like how much money you have in the bank, not indicative of the quality of life and perspective you have.

For sure, 2008, S&S made way too many mistakes to deserve the World title. 2014 Olympic bronze was also a gift. The judges are usually implicit "We'll give you a gift, now go away in peace." Then Aliona chooses to come back. Exasperating. If I had to sit through 4 more years of her lack of pointed toes and un-matching leg lines, they'll be my new bathroom break.

Ok so they won 5 World titles and 2 Olympic medals even in a relatively weak field - I and many others would be ecstatic to have such a career. But for Aliona it's not enough. That's just insanity.

It sounds like you're not believing in you argument anymore:laugh: I don't think there's much room for misinterpretation of her motivation when she says she wants to be OGM with a new partner.
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
The reason is because Rodnina competed earlier than those 5 teams. People usually love those teams, they could have watched live. Lots of younger fans unfortunately even don't remember Rodnina.

Yes, Rodnina is only mentioned in respect to how many medals she won. She had a lot of grit but let's face it, 10 World titles, 3 OGM, she was favored by the system to win. As John Curry said, people aren't that consistent.

When people are asked which pairs touched and inspired them deeply, Rodnina is not frequently mentioned.

B&S's basics and standard of pairs skating quality were probably second only to G&G.

S&Z's Nessum Dorma in Worlds 2003 cements them as one of the greats.
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
But what's wrong with wanting OGM? Five World titles + 2 Olympic bronzes = good enough for you. Okay, good! But Aliona wants to go further. Okay, good for her too! Why are you so invested in what she does? It sounds like you simply dislike her and want her gone because you don't like watching her... which is fine, but you can say that instead of acting like you've delved into her head, seen the future, and are certain she'll regret it. Not everyone who chases an impossible dream wishes they sat at home and did nothing the moment they don't succeed. How is that hard to understand?
 

s_parks

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 25, 2013
But what's wrong with wanting OGM? Five World titles + 2 Olympic bronzes = good enough for you. Okay, good! But Aliona wants to go further. Okay, good for her too! Why are you so invested in what she does? It sounds like you simply dislike her and want her gone because you don't like watching her... which is fine, but you can say that instead of acting like you've delved into her head, seen the future, and are certain she'll regret it. Not everyone who chases an impossible dream wishes they sat at home and did nothing the moment they don't succeed. How is that hard to understand?

:):thumbsup:
 

BlackPack

Medalist
Joined
Mar 20, 2013
But what's wrong with wanting OGM? Five World titles + 2 Olympic bronzes = good enough for you. Okay, good! But Aliona wants to go further. Okay, good for her too! Why are you so invested in what she does? It sounds like you simply dislike her and want her gone because you don't like watching her... which is fine, but you can say that instead of acting like you've delved into her head, seen the future, and are certain she'll regret it. Not everyone who chases an impossible dream wishes they sat at home and did nothing the moment they don't succeed. How is that hard to understand?

I didn't dislike watching her in the beginning. They were innovative and unusual. I thought the quality of their programs suffered towards the end and the downward spiral may continue. Pairs skating has descended into levels that aren't enjoyable in comparison to the past.

I already stated my position previously and if you don't like it, ignore my posts.
 

Sandpiper

Record Breaker
Joined
Apr 16, 2014
But you're posting your position on a forum. :scratch: Somebody (me or otherwise) is going to respond to it. Isn't the whole point to discuss things whether we agree or not?
 

Pasdedeux

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 26, 2013
I have always enjoyed watching Aliona skate. Even now I don't get the impression that she needs to be pushed around the ice, she is very flexible, she lands the throws, her lift positions are pleasing, her skating is very soft and fast, so I am glad I will see more of her, OGM or not. But most of all, I am glad I will see more of Ingo's work. He seems to be a talented, unusual choreographer, and for me it is exciting to watch more of his creations. I don't think that their programs have gotten worse. Pina is a masterpiece, and Bolero, while the costumes might raise some eyebrows and the music is a bit hard to fall in love with, is actually technically a very well constructed program, very intricate and detailed, without any pauses in the skating.

By the way, I find it naive to think that if a lady falls on a throw it is always her fault. A throw is executed by two people (usually :) ), and mistakes can be made by either partner with the result being a fall on landing.
 

hanca

Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 23, 2008
I do think the last two year or so S-S became slower than ever before and the programs were not as innovative as before. Saying that, I have a great respect for her that she wants to continue; I believe that it is a good thing. Maybe having a different partner will add some fresh air into her skating. Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to imply that there was anything wrong with her skating with Szolkowy, but I felt that it just became a bit stale in the last two years (the same again and again). Having a different partner is obviously a risk; she may never get to that level as she was before, or on the other hand, she may be even better. Results from competition usually reflect a lot the technical skills and it is possible that the new pair won't be able to reach the same technical level where she was with Szolkowy and their results may reflect that (by not being as successful with their competition results), however, the chances are that this pair will be again very innovative and a pleasure to watch.
 

snowflake

I enjoy what I like
Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 10, 2008
I'm excited that Aliona keeps on competing. I admire her as a strong and ambitios woman. I expect Ingo, she and Bruno will create great programs.

Also happy for Robin beeing a coach in Oberstdorf. Seems like this training center means a lot to European skating. Many skaters go there for summer training and maybe also 'for good'. Can't wait to see Robin in Kiss & Cry :love: I wonder who will be his students? Maybe some promising young pair skaters?
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
By the way, I find it naive to think that if a lady falls on a throw it is always her fault. A throw is executed by two people (usually :) ), and mistakes can be made by either partner with the result being a fall on landing.

It's most certainly done by both skaters, but it's the woman's job to land it, and extend the landing to go with the music. The guy facilitates it, and his job is to give her just the right boost. Too little and she won't go up, too much and she'll go out of control. I would say it's an element that hugely depends on the woman. Same with a death spiral... her position is critical to the move being successful and it's a lot harder on her to maintain her spiral edge/back arch than the guy to maintain his pivot. Lifts is where I would say the guy's job is more important, particularly in maintaining the speed, and facilitating changes of position.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
But what's wrong with wanting OGM? Five World titles + 2 Olympic bronzes = good enough for you. Okay, good! But Aliona wants to go further. Okay, good for her too! Why are you so invested in what she does? It sounds like you simply dislike her and want her gone because you don't like watching her... which is fine, but you can say that instead of acting like you've delved into her head, seen the future, and are certain she'll regret it. Not everyone who chases an impossible dream wishes they sat at home and did nothing the moment they don't succeed. How is that hard to understand?

Agreed. If she's still capable of competing, why be so negative and derisive? Why did Dmitriev continue on -- if he hadn't, Kazakova/Dmitriev wouldn't have existed and won him his 2nd gold.
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Agreed. If she's still capable of competing, why be so negative and derisive? Why did Dmitriev continue on -- if he hadn't, Kazakova/Dmitriev wouldn't have existed and won him his 2nd gold.

Indeed. I never liked Alyona's skating but I love the fact that she is so competitive. She hates to lose and I love that in all athletes and skaters in particular.
 
Top