Naomi Nari Nam

It seems to me that all the posters here are saying that Presentation will happen with the right choreographer. IMO, Preseentation begins with the basics of figure skating the 3 turns; the brackets and more so beautiful rockers, etc. All this must come with the ease of flow on the ice and especially with the tricks. Much of this can be taught and it should be taught early. Without the basics, there is no
foundation for Presentation, imo. During this period, musicality is also developing. If it isn't, it is best the skater forget competititve skating.

As the basics are being worked on and it takes time, there should become awareness of the line of the skater and the movement of the arms. Much of this is intrinsic with the skater andcan be developed further with the proper coach. For others who do not have this innate ability, it can be taught but it is not easily learned.

What emerges from all of this is what I call a Style. Among the top skaters who do have good Presentation (not all of them do) one can easily see that they each have a particular style which makes them unique (Not all Swan Queens.are alike.)

In the case of Miki Ando, she has good basics but she could work on her line which is not consistent throughout her performance. Her arms, too, imo need to look more natural than choreographed. She is young and in time I think she will develop an excellent Style.

(For me, it is Yukina Ota, among the Japanese Ladies who will be the most 'finished' skater in terms of Presentation.)

Joe

Thanks for all the comments and corrections, which I've edited into the text. It's taken me a few days to get out from under that house--my sister, the Wicked Witch of the East, was at a Wal-Mart sale.

First to answer some specific questions and comments:
Mathman asked:
Do you think there is any point now in starting an email campaign to the USFSA about injuries and the need for better equipment and maybe for some rules changes and more uniform training for coaches? Or has the USFSA, better late than never, started to take the lead now, with it's apparent sponsorship to research on the hinged boot?

Good question. IMO, an email campaign to the USFSA and/or ISU about injuries, the need to better equipment, possible rule changes limiting the number of jumps for skaters under a certain age (IMO), and required training for coaches would be a great thing, but only if enough people got behind it. If 100 emails trickle into the USFSA, it will be a waste. But if the USFSA and/or ISU receives several thousand emails, they might raise some eyebrows. I would also like to see emails sent to those name journalists who cover figure skating, ie, Jere Longman, Phil Hersh, Christine Brennan, and others, requesting more coverage of the injury issue.

Perhaps this summer would be a good time to organize something like this. Without hitting people over the head, I know injuries are unpleasant to think about, but just as fans and sports writers were the ones who really got the ball rolling on steroids in baseball (one look at Mark Maguire's "Popeye" arms and you had to know), I think it will take a concerted effort by figure skating fans and writers to put pressure on the ISU and the stronger federations to not just say, "Okay, we're getting behind the hinged skate boot; we've done our job," but to make injury monitoring an ongoing process. So by all means, how about if Golden Skate sponsors an email campaign of the type described by Mathman to both the USFSA and the ISU? Will people take a few minutes out of their summer to send a pre-written email? If we can spend time speculating on whether or not Irina's pregnant I think we can spend time showing our concern for the athletes we love to watch. The campaign would have to invite other boards in as well, but I think there are enough posters on GS who post at other boards that this should be possible. I nominate Mathman to organize it.


These next three go together.
Longhornliz said:
This is probably a controversial position, but I feel that some of the problem is that skaters are able to compete at such high levels when they are so young. I know that it is easier to get your triples while you are still small, but it just seems like children of 13 arent ready for the psychological strain. And as a child development major, I can say that honestly they don't realize the implications of making these decisions to commit their LIVES to skating at this young age.

Jesilly said something similar:
Unfortunately, the pressure to have all the triples and have them consistent failed the big dream f few kids. Serious injuries take them off ice for as long as two years, meanwhile their bodies changed a lot. NNN was the most serious one. Kwon after injury quit skating. Sara wheat did poorly at regional last year as a SR. lady after her hip injury.
I feel the reasons of injury are not boots or any equipment, the injuries are really the result of pressure to get most difficult elements, 3/3s, quads, quad combos, and in the future the elite skaters may be pushed to do 5 or 6 rotations jumps.

And Hockeyfan asked:
Is it the pressure of 3/3's and quads in traditional boots for everyone, or is it the pressure of performing them when a girl is 12-16, and still in the process of growing and forming? I wonder if Arakawa, for example, has bypassed the point of injury, because her training was curtailed to an extent while she attended college.

IMO, it's a combination. I'll start with the younger skaters, those under 18. As several people mentioned, there is more and more pressure for skaters to get all the triples, except the 3Axel, under their belts by age 11 or 12. Then the pressure over the recent years is to get 3/3s and/or a quad by age 14. The problem is, the bones on these young skaters, male or female, are not fully developed until at least 18 and some are still growing even then. On the joint-connecting ends of the long bones, there is an area of specialized cartilage known in lay terms as the *growth plate* (technically, the *epiphyseal plate*). It's not exactly cartilage and it's not exactly bone; it's kind of in between to allow for growth. These growth plates do not become full bone until the individual is fully grown--about 18 in females; anywhere from 18 to 20 for males. The problem is, these growth plates are very susceptible to injury.

Also, nothing of the musculoskeletal structure of a 12 to 16-year-old is as strong as it is in an 18 to 22 year old. The cartilage in the joints is more malleable, but it's also not very strong, which is part of the reason you see some 12 to 16-year-olds with amazing flexibility. (Remember NNN's layback or Cohen's *Sasha Curl*? Notice that Sasha doesn't do the *Sasha Curl* anymore?) The point is, these young teen skaters, as I'll call them, have tremendous endurance, drive, and energy and their bodies can take a lot--up to a point. They tend to have a physiologic make-up where they really don't feel much pain until it's too late. You could practically dribble them on the ice like a basketball and they'd come back the next day ready for more. Never again in one's life will one have the endurance and recuperative powers of a 10 to 16-year-old.

However, once a young teen seriously injures a growth structure, such as hip joint cartilage or the hip joint bone, it's never coming back. So, yes, a big part of the problem is the emphasis on getting young teen female skaters to do 3/3s and quads. I've mainly seen the problem in females, but that may be a function of the emphasis on ladies skating. My guess is that with young teen male skaters is that either the injury rate is not as bad because they don't have the muscle mass to do very many quads until they've developed the muscle mass, which means at least 17 or 18, or else we just aren't as aware of the problem in young teen males.

In the case of young teen skaters, I think the ISU and strong federations need to step in and make some tough rules about jump content at junior events as well as practice conditions. The first would be relatively easy, IF the powers that be can get past the idea that if they make rules restricting the number of jumps for young skaters that they'll be sending the message that skating is dangerous as well as the fear that they might be restricting the next phenom. Michelle Wee in golf, the 14-year-old boy in soccer, not to mention Tiger Woods, are all big money and interest generators and federations love them. But they are the exception rather than the rule. The US Tennis Assoc. loves to talk about the Williams sisters, but try to get them to talk about Jennifer Capriotti. The point is, it would be a very uphill battle to get the ISU/USFSA and other federations to give up on the idea of another Tara (what hip injury?), another Oksana (what knee injury and alcohol problem?), or another Michelle (see, she's just fine!) That's why I think it would take a concerted effort by fans and sports writers to get the ISU and top federations to consider rules making quads and 3/3s illegal in junior competitions until the skater is 18. Even with better equipment, such as the hinged skate boot, which is not a panacea by any stretch, IMO we're going to see more elite young teen eligible skaters with career-ending injuries to their hips if some restrictions are not applied.

For anyone who feels "But it's a sport and the purpose of any sport is to push the envelope," ITA as long as we're talking about athletes who are at least 18 years old. Anybody has the right to work in this country, but we have laws to protect those under a certain age so they're not exploited. Anyone can have sex in this country but again, we have laws to protect those under a certain age (depending on the state) so that those whose decision-making abilities and ability to consider the risk/benefit ratio for their future are not fully developed are not exploited. I see no reason why the same principles should not apply to elite sports, which, after all, are just as much about working as anything else.

The second part of Hockeyfan's question/comment was I wonder if Arakawa, for example, has bypassed the point of injury, because her training was curtailed to an extent while she attended college. Firstly, I don't think any skater ever bypasses the point of injury; however, I'm sure you, Hockeyfan, meant career-ending injury to the hip, knee, back, or ankle from doing 3/3s. I think two variables are the most important when we're talking about fully developed athletes--over 18, but still young enough to be in their prime--doing quads, 3/3s, and other high-rotation jumps and combos. One we've already touched upon, that is, the fact that the musculoskeletal system is fully developed and can withstand more end-loaded (pounding) and twisting forces. Another part of maturity is cognitive. As skaters grow into their late teens and early 20s, their decision-making capabilities also develop. There's not the single-mindedness about training; there's (hopefully) greater perspective on how much one can do well and safely; and hopefully more give and take between skater and coach. So skaters over 18, which I admit is no magic age but rather one I chose for the sake of argument, are stronger and more mature both physically and mentally.

The second variable is more a matter of what is expected of skaters these days in general. In a number of skating articles, writers note that Debi Thomas attempted a 3/3 at the '88 Olympic (she did a three-turn out of the second triple, IIRC); Tonya Harding landed a 3Axel at '91 Nats; Kristi Yamaguchi landed a 3L/3t and Midori Ito a 3Axel at the '92 Olympics; and Nancy Kerrigan landed a 3t/3t at the '94 Olympics. Of course Sarah Hughes landed two 3/3s at the '98 Olympics, but again, it was a one-season situation. Certain sports writers go on to bemoan the fact that aside from the 3/3s Michelle and Irina have landed on an irregular basis, ladies skating has not increased in technically difficulty the way men's skating has. (Yes, Surya Bonaly landed some too from '92 through '98, and I'm sure there are others I haven't mentioned, but I'm talking trends here.) The undertone to what these writers, and some fans, are saying, which I find wholly unfair, is that Michelle is too complacent to push the sport technically and Irina just couldn't keep up.

I think these individuals are missing a very important point: For Debi, Kristi, and Nancy, their 3/3s were only done for one season in preparation for one event: the Olympics. Tonya only hit her 3Axel in competition once ('91 Nats) and Midori, though she hit her 3Axel the most out of the group of ladies skaters doing either 3/3s or a 3Axel, it still was erratic and she did not compete at the elite eligible level with it for more than four years, although she did hit one to win the World Pro competition in the mid '90s. The point is, none of the *Big 3/3 or 3Axel Stars* did those jumps on a regular basis for more than one season except Midori. However, if I'm correct, Michelle has landed the 3t/3t 11 times in competition since '97. I don't know how many times Irina has landed a 3/3 in competition. Looked at from that perspective, Michelle has landed a 3/3 combo more than any other female skater--unless I'm missing somebody.

The point of all this is, from '88 to '94 (it might have been earlier, I'm just not sure about '86 and '87 Worlds, though I'm sure someone will know--DorisPulaski to the rescue?), ladies skaters--except Midori--got their 3/3 up for one season aiming for one big event and that was it. After that they turned pro. These skaters were also at least 18--Kristi was 20 and Nancy was 24 at the time of their Olympics. With proper training and technique, their bodies could take the stresses of one season of 3/3 training with attempts a couple of major competitions. They also didn't have nearly as many competitions where they were expected to do 3/3s. This season, not counting the ISU events, most top skaters had six or seven important competitions: 4 GP (2-3 to qualify, 1 GPF); Nationals; Euros (4CC still not considered important); and Worlds. Plus Worlds counts as a an extra 2/3s of an event IMO because of the Qualifiing Round. Thus next season a skater could conceivably be expected to execute one 3/3 in her SP plus one or two 3/3s or a 3/3 and a quad in her LP during competition 7 to 8 times a year; go on tour right after Worlds; do ISU events shortly after the GPF and shortly after Worlds; and continue touring through the end of July/beginning of August. Couple that kind of schedule with the practice it takes to keep 3/3s and quads up or learn yet another 3/3 to keep ahead of the pack and you have a very different scenario than you did in from the late '80s through '94. I just don't think you can compare what happened in '88, '92, and '94 to what is expected now.

The closest comparison we can make is '98 with Sarah Hughes. Sarah did or attempted one 3/3 at some or all of her GP events, IIRC; she attempted at least one 3/3 at Nats but didn't complete it (can't recall if she tried two 3/3s); and as we know she completed two 3/3s at the Olympics. She opted out of Worlds and during the COI tour, battled an ankle injury, which took her out of a number of shows. Then, although Sarah remained eligible during the following season, she was injured early in the season and thus did not compete in any of the GP events. IIRC, she did Campbells; the December ISU event; Nats; and Worlds, where she finished 6th.

Another example of an older skater with two 3/3s is Elena Sokolova. During the '02/03 season, she did poorly in the GP series, not making the GPF, but rallied at Russian Nats and Worlds with mistake-free two 3/3 programs, where she won the gold and silver respectively. In fall '03, she was already injured by Campbells--a knee injury that required surgery--and although she seemed to be doing better at Euros and Russian Nats, her Worlds performance was, to be frank, abysmal.

Jenny Kirk is another skater who has been doing a 3/3 in her programs for more than one season and now has hip problems. Although I don't know what caused her poor performances at Worlds, I can't help but wonder if her hip had something to do with it. She was so strong at Skate America; she was well trained; I can't see her performances at Worlds as being just a result of nerves.

This is why I find the statement by the president of the USFSA about US ladies needing 3/3s and quads by itself irresponsible--granted, he's only been in office since last year. I don't have a problem with his statement about US ladies needing 3/3s and quads to be problematic in and of itself since it does reflect reality; what I find irresponsible is the lack of context. We've already seen Japan's biggest jumper, Yoshie Onda, unable to compete--at least temporarily--due to injury. The fact is, we have never seen a ladies skater compete for more than one season doing one or more 3/3s or a 3/3 and a quad without serious injury. The skaters who have done 3/3s, specifically Michelle and Irina, gradually stopped doing them either due to pain (Michelle) or because she just couldn't keep doing 3/3s consistently.

So if the president of the USFSA wants to send out an edict demanding that elite US ladies start doing 3/3s and quads (as if they didn't already know), I think there should also be equal attention paid to safety. How wise is it if the top US ladies skaters are doing a 3/3 in their SP and an LP with either two 3/3s or a 3/3 and a quad by early November; win the gold and silver at Worlds; and then next season are too injured to skate well at the Olympics? Of course I don't know that this is what will happen, but if we look at recent history, such an outcome seems to be a likely possibility.

I think NNN is a very memorable example of a skater with not only exceptional promise but also a lot of promise already fulfilled, at least in '99. And as I said before, she was also the "heir apparent" to Michelle. I think these are the main reasons why it's hard for many fans to let go of the hope that Nam will return to high level eligible skating, which I define as qualifiying for Nats; winning a spot on the World team; and finishing in the top 10 at Worlds. It's true, as GKelly noted, that competing at regionals and sectionals is Olympic eligible skating; I should have been clearer about my word usage.

One last comment I'd like to note is by Heyang:
I remember reading something years ago....supposedly John Nicks liked to get his girls doing triples earlier. The thought process was that it made them standout against the rest of the novice and junior field - sorta get the buzz going.

At the same time that the article came out, many people pointed out that NNN and SC (who were both with Nicks at the time) had shorted/cheated triples, partially evidenced by how their free leg skate blade would graze the top of the boot of the landing leg.

I heard this too and I think it showed in NNN and Sasha's inconsistency. When I saw Sasha live from an on-ice seat at "Stars, Stripes, and Skates" in Sept. '02, just after she'd changed to Tarasova, I saw a lot of problems with her jumps that didn't show up on TV. Her jumps had too much force going "out" and not enough going "up," resulting in skiddy landings, an opening up of the hip of the free leg, which she would either have to correct with a kind of "curlicue" adjustment to her pelvis. Needless to say, her landings weren't secure. Although there was some improvement with Tarasova, only since she's been with Robin Wagner have Sasha's jumps looked truly technically solid more often than not. The point is, the emphasis on doing triples early, and now 3/3s and quads, may result in poor technical habits ingrained at an early age.

I was also told by someone familiar with the skating world in California that although there are a number of top coaches from the former Soviet Union, they don't do very well with their students because they spend so much time on basics. According to the person I talked to, many Russian coaches would not allow their students to compete until they had mastered a certain level of basics. Parents and skaters would soon get frustrated, as in, "We're paying you a lot of money! Where are the medals?" and change to a US coach. I'm not saying all Russian coaches are like that and I got this information second hand, but it's an interesting paradox.

I think in some ways people expect all young skaters to have the jumping ability Michelle did at 12. Michelle was fortunate in that Frank Carroll emphasized good technique, but she was also a skating/jumping prodigy. With another prodigy, Tara, coming right after Michelle, I don't know if people in general realize how rare they were. Of course now that people expect 12-year-olds to have all their triples, it's almost impossible to put the genie back in the bottle. But I do think it would behoove us all to consider an email compaign to the ISU and USFSA about injuries. It's affecting females most now in part because males are biomechanically better designed for jumping, but Timothy Goebel is an unfortunate example of how the problems of poor equipment combined with having a body that made it easy to do quads resulted in a skater who made great strides in presentation only to have what seems like a domino effect of injuries and boot problems take him out of nearly two years of competition.

Let's hope the powers that be work towards a balance between the inevitable pushing of the boundaries of the sport and maintaining the safety of the skaters. But I do think fans could help by making their concerns known. We've got the Internet. Why not use it to voice our opinions?
Rgirl

Rgirl said:

Thanks for all the comments and corrections, which I've edited into the text. It's taken me a few days to get out from under that house--my sister, the Wicked Witch of the East, was at a Wal-Mart sale.

Rgirl

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Hey, hey, HEY! I wasn't anywhere NEAR a Wal-Mart!

I meant our non-twin, good-fer-nuthin' sister, Hedwig.
Rgirl

I think these individuals are missing a very important point: For Debi, Kristi, and Nancy, their 3/3s were only done for one season in preparation for one event: the Olympics.

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Not quite true.

Tonya only hit her 3Axel in competition once ('91 Nats)

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Four times: 1991 Nationals, 1991 Worlds, and both short and long program at 1991 Skate America, so during the course of two seasons. She also had been practicing it and intending to try it in other years: falling at 1992 Olympics (and Nationals?), popping it at 1994 Olympics and Nationals, where she did land some in practice.

and Midori, though she hit her 3Axel the most out of the group of ladies skaters doing either 3/3s or a 3Axel, it still was erratic and she did not compete at the elite eligible level with it for more than four years, although she did hit one to win the World Pro competition in the mid '90s.

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And attempted it in her reinstatement comeback in 1996 (landing it successfully only at Japanese Nationals that year, stepout, etc. in teh attempts at Worlds). Also, she had attempted this jump in competition as early as 1984 NHK, when she was 15, and landed one as an encore to her exhibition there.

The point is, none of the *Big 3/3 or 3Axel Stars* did those jumps on a regular basis for more than one season except Midori.

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Kerrigan, like Ito, was said to have first landed triple toe-triple toe when she was 12, but unlike Ito I don't think she did it in competition at that time. Certainly not international competition. I don't know how much she practiced it or attempted it in between, but she did plan it in 1992, popping the second jump in Albertville.

However, if I'm correct, Michelle has landed the 3t/3t 11 times in competition since '97. I don't know how many times Irina has landed a 3/3 in competition.

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Landed cleanly, or attempted? Cleanly landed attempts are a useful statistic for demonstrating who was "better" at these elements, but total attempts, and maybe even failed attempts, are more meaningful in relation to likelihood of injury.

But it's not the number of attempts in competition that affects the injury rate; it's the number of repetitions in practice, with falls and "saved" landings more likely to contribute to injury than good landings.

And it's the skaters who want the combination desperately but don't enough to overtrain who are more likely to get injured before they even master the combo enough to put it in a program. Some of the skaters who are cited as casualties of triple-triples, such as Nam and Stellato, never got a chance to try it in competition, which just goes to show that number of (successful or otherwise) competition attempts is not the best statistic for predicting injury.

Looked at from that perspective, Michelle has landed a 3/3 combo more than any other female skater--unless I'm missing somebody.

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I would guess that someone like Elena Ivanova (1996 junior world champion) had at least that many successful attempts at 3lutz-3toe and 3flip-3toe over the course of her long junior career. But she never got anywhere in seniors, in part because of injuries, so that may strengthen your case.

I was just looking back at some old tapes of Nebelhorn on Eurosport, which is what reminded me of Ivanova.

Arakawa was also there in 1994 and '95 as a 12- and 13-year-old, and both times she landed somewhat cheated 3toe-3toe, so she's been doing some triple-triple on and off for about a decade already. Around 1999 (don't remember which year exactly), she had a somewhat cheated 3sal-3loop, at Skate America if not elsewhere. She landed the 3lutz-3toe-2loop at 2003 Worlds as well as 2004.

(And incidentally, Slutskaya was doing 3sal-2loop-1/2 loop-2sal as early as 1993 Nebelhorn, it's not just something she invented in 2002.)

What about Amber Corwin and Jenny Kirk? They usually attempt the same 3-3 as Kwan, Corwin has been doing it just as long, in both short and long programs . . . with all those attempts, even with a lower percentage of success the total number landed might be higher.

gkelly said:

....Landed cleanly, or attempted? Cleanly landed attempts are a useful statistic for demonstrating who was "better" at these elements, but total attempts, and maybe even failed attempts, are more meaningful in relation to likelihood of injury.

But it's not the number of attempts in competition that affects the injury rate; it's the number of repetitions in practice, with falls and "saved" landings more likely to contribute to injury than good landings.

....Some of the skaters who are cited as casualties of triple-triples, such as Nam and Stellato, never got a chance to try it in competition, which just goes to show that number of (successful or otherwise) competition attempts is not the best statistic for predicting injury.

...What about Amber Corwin and Jenny Kirk? They usually attempt the same 3-3 as Kwan, Corwin has been doing it just as long, in both short and long programs . . . with all those attempts, even with a lower percentage of success the total number landed might be higher.

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First of all, GKelly, thank you for correcting my information on number of 3/3s or 3Axels landed in competition as well as making the point about the importance of attempts. Your comments in general are of course appreciated. Also, ITA that the most important factor regarding injuries related to 3/3 (or more) combos and quad or quad combos is how often they are attempted in practice rather than landed in competition. Wish I'd thought to include it. The reasons I focused on jumps landed in competition is because they are a statistic that can be verified and also because one can do some general extrapolations about how long a skater has been practicing those jumps intensely based on the number of landings and attempts in competition.

In fact, IMO your point about attempts during practice, especially including falls and *wonky* landings trying to save what I'll refer to as *high rotation jumps or combos* (HRJC) makes it even more important that the ISU and stronger federations put money into research on the relationship between HRJC and injuries. Of course those are not the only variables: Age, gender, coaching techniques, age at which skater began the sport, individual differences, and genetic factors all go into the mix and make good research on athletic injuries cause and effect very difficult.

In any case, in both practice and in competition, whether landed or attempted, I think there is little question that in recent years the demands on singles skaters of both genders to do more HRJC to be competitive has increased. For men the *surge* in HRJC, as I call it, started after the '98 Olympics. For women, I'd say the surge started after SLC '02. But because skating injuries tend to be due to overuse rather than single trauma, we tend not to see the results of that overuse for several years. You made the point very well with regard to Nam that she had never even competed with a 3/3 when she got injured. Another issue that makes research difficult are the skaters like Tara who are able to continue to skate but not at a competitive level and in significant pain. At least in my experience working with and treating athletes, they tend to minimize the pain and dysfunction associated with their injuries. Also, athletes take a lot of pain in stride as just part of the sport. Thus verifying the extent of an injury is difficult if researchers must depend only on self-report. Also, since most overuse injuries occur before they can be detected on x-ray and since CT scan and especially MRIs are very costly, the ability to determine the exact onset of injury is also very difficult.

Actually, the only case I was trying to make is that the whole issue of the increased number of HRJC being done and any possible links to increased number and/or severity of injuries deserves research funding from the ISU and major federations. Some skaters will always suffer career-ending injuries no matter what the technical requirements. Some skaters will thrive and skate almost inury-free no matter what the technical requirements. But I feel the organizations in charge of a sport, especially where minors are involved--and so many minors at that--have a responsibility to put money into research to make sure the demands of the sport are reasonably safe. For me, *reasonably safe* would have to be determined by a group of those who have been involved in many levels of the sport for decades--coaches, skaters, and medical personnel who have an understanding of the number of serious injuries they've seen over the last 25 years.

In one of the few studies to look at figure skating injuries (see end of post) the injury rate was listed relative to number of hours of training, ie x injuries per 1,000 of training. By comparing injury rates to other sports and also finding a way to rate severity of injuries, a determination could be made as to whether rates of figure skating injuries are increasing and what an acceptable rate of injury is for figure skating.

You also asked about Jenny Kirk and Amber Corwin. Jenny was part of the ABC/ESPN piece during worlds on skating injuries and spoke on camera about her hip injury. She didn't specify how long she'd been seriously training the 3t/3t, but she had enough pain to consult a sports medicine physician specializing in skating for the purposes of designing a conditioning program to try to keep her hip as healthy as possible given the demands of the sport. Jenny was doing very well with all her jumps early in the season, especially at Skate America. I don't know what accounted for her poor performances at Worlds; there was a quote by Richard Callaghan immediately after Worlds who said even he didn't understand what happened. Whether or not Jenny's hip was or will be a problem in her skating is something only time will tell.

Amber Corwin hasn't seemed to have any significant injuries despite doing two 3/3 LPs for the last two seasons. Amber could be one of those skaters whose genetics allow her to practice and compete with these jumps without injury. She may need less practice to get them consistent than other skaters. Or it's possible that Amber may yet experience hip or knee problems related to doing 3/3s. The type of 3/3 she's been doing may have suited her body well. There are many individual variables and without interviewing and examining Amber, there's no way to know.

At any rate, you can look at individual cases of skaters or those of a few skaters and come to the conclusion that either increased demands for HRJC are not a significant cause of serious injury or that they are. That's why well-designed studies are needed to look at the multiple variables among a significant sample of elite skaters. However, the need for studies doesn't nullify the importance of observation. When you have every sports medicine physician and trainer who has ever worked with skaters say they've never seen the kind of hip injuries they've been seeing on an increasingly regular basis over the past six to eight years, I think it's time to sit up and take notice.

Also, even though I made errors on who landed 3/3s or 3Axels how many times from about '88 through '94, IMO the difference in trends between then and the last six or so years still holds true. Were junior skaters on the whole practicing for and trying to compete with two 3/3 programs or a 3/3 and a quad back then? The GP series and ISU events did not exist until '95 (not sure of the exact year) and in my experience, training always intensifies prior to competitive events. Figure skating fans may consider ISU events *cheesefests* but apparently the skaters take them seriously and they are paid a good sum for participation and more for medaling. Up until the mid-'90s, the money for skaters was in turing pro. Before the GP series was formalized and significant prize money came with medaling at GP events, Nats, Euros/4CC, and Worlds, most skaters tended to compete until they'd had one or at the most two good shots at the Olympics, with most senior competitive careers for elite singles skaters lasting about four to eight years.

Not to focus only on the Olympics, but I do think they're usually benchmarks for increases in technical difficulty, in '88, as I said before, of the medal winners, only Debi Thomas did a 3/3 in her LP (it wasn't cleanly landed, but neither did she fall). But the most important factor up until '92, IMO, was that school figures still constituted a substantial part of the total score. Skaters who were especially good at figures could build up a substantial lead making high technical content in the short and long less important. At the same time, Midori Ito was coming up with her theretofore unseen jumping ability. A lot of people predicted a surge in jumping demands for women, just as a surge in the demands for quads had been predicted after Kurt Browning first landed his at the Budapest Worlds in '88. Certainly neither Midori nor Kurt were the first to attempt these jumps, but they are credited as being the first to land them in competition.

The point is, what we've tended to see in singles skating in terms of jumping demands is that someone is the first to land a jump in competition; then there seems to be either a very gradual increase in others attempting/landing the jump or, after one or two others land it in competition, a lull in attempts. IMO, the main reasons for this since the late '80s is the dropping of school figures from ISU competition in '92 and the time needed for coaches to learn how to teach less naturally gifted jumpers how to do the more difficult jump and/or jump combo.

For example, with men and the quad, there was Kurt at the '88 Worlds, but at the '92 and '94 Olympics, none of the top contenders and certainly none of the medal winners attempted a quad. The trend then was the 3Axel/3t combo. Although Elvis Stojko was landing quads on a pretty consistent basis in the early '90s, landing the first competitive 4/2 combo in '91, and the Chinese men were great at landing quads by the mid '90s, the integration of quads as a regular and expected part of elite men's competitive skating didn't take off until after the '98 Olympics, where Ilia Kulik was the first to land an Olympic quad. By the '02 Olympics, not only did most men have a quad, top contender or not--even some of the lower finishers had a quad; it's just that they didn't have the other skating skills necessary for top or even average scores--quad combos and two quad programs were being done.

A similar thing happened with ladies' 3Axels and 3/3s. Midori Ito was the first woman to land a competitive 3/3 at the 1981 Jr. Worlds and then the first woman to land a competitive 3Axel at the '89 Worlds. I could go over who landed what when as I did with the men and there are plenty of sites on the web with the information--http://www.iceskating.org/nl/info.htm
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=figure+skating+records
--but suffice it to say, the increase in expected jump demands from ladies followed a similar pattern as the men, though not as quickly.

IMO, the difference between where men were with the quad between '98 and '02 will happen with women and the 3/3, 3/3/2, and quad between '02 and '06. In other words, in SLC '02 Sarah Hughes won with a mistake-free, well-choreographed, well-skated, two 3/3 free skate, much as Kulik did with his quad program in '98. After '98, there was a surge in quads and quad combos for the men. I think we're in the midst of a surge of 3/3s and to a lesser extent quads for women, as well as 3/3/2s.

Even though skaters may have been doing these jumps in practice on and off for many years, as I said before, I think training naturally intensifies prior to competitions. With more skaters doing more competitions in both the junior and senior ranks, training and jump practicing has, IMO, become more intense for a greater part of the year than it was in the early '90s. Also, whenever a surge in technical demands occurs in a sport--in this case, jumping--proper training techniques, off-ice training, techniques for teaching the jump so that the number of practice jumps needed to achieve an 80-90% clean landing rate is at its most efficient, how to deal with growth spurts, and changes in equipment inevitably lag behind.

I want to emphasize that I have absolutely no desire to hold back the technical demands of the sport. I have been as thrilled by a gorgeous HRJC as anybody and continue to be. I also have no doubt that 10 or 15 years from now, all the things I noted above that now lag behind in keeping the majority of skaters from suffering career-ending injuries will have caught up to the demands of the sport. My concern is for the next five to 10 years, especially for skaters under age 18, though as I said before, 18 is not carved in stone; it's just an age to make the point that there needs to be an age or age range recognized as that of maturity to protect skaters who are still developing.

Finally, I'm happy to hear those who disagree with me, especially glad to hear from those who can correct my errors, and happy to hear all opinions on this subject. I also understand that very few people are fascinated by injuries and some may hesitate to weigh in because they may feel they don't have the education or experience to discuss skating injuries. I think this discussion is open to anyone and everyone, including those who feel there is no problem with skating injuries. But I do think that if people really love skating, that it would behoove us all to spend some time discussing the issue.

BTW, if you think there must be plenty of research on figure skating injuries, according to a search of the Internet medical research database, PubMed, from 1979 to 2003 there have been exactly 20 studies concering some aspect of figure skating injuries and several of those only mention figure skating while looking at female or winter sports athletes in general or else in the context of studying inline skating. Compare that to the search I did under *dancers injuries*--196 studies since 1966, and *gymastics injuries*--458 studies since 1954.

For figure skating that's less than one study a year since 1979. And only the most recent study, one from Croatia, looked at a significant number of skaters, ie, 233 female and 236 male junior skaters. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/...ve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=12860537
Most studies had a sample of 20 skaters or less. There have been no comprehensive studies of injuries among elite senior skaters.

To read the abstracts for the studies, enter *figure skating injuries* (or *dancers injuries* *gymnastics injuries* or whatever you're interested in) in the search box at:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=Search&DB=PubMed

For website information on figure skating injuries, here's a list of links from a Google search:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=figure+skating+injuries

So, 458, 196, 20. Is that okay by you? It's not okay by me.
Rgirl

I basically agree with your general points. Just clarifying a few facts...

You also asked about Jenny Kirk and Amber Corwin. Jenny was part of the ABC/ESPN piece during worlds on skating injuries and spoke on camera about her hip injury. She didn't specify how long she'd been seriously training the 3t/3t, but she had enough pain to consult a sports medicine physician

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She was certainly doing it as early as 2000 when she won Junior Worlds, at which point she was quite a bit smaller than she is now.

And hadn't her hip trouble started the following summer when she was practicing 3sal-3loop and/or quad sals?

Which suggests that 3toe-3toe is a less "dangerous" HRJC than the more difficult ones.

Also, even though I made errors on who landed 3/3s or 3Axels how many times from about '88 through '94, IMO the difference in trends between then and the last six or so years still holds true. Were junior skaters on the whole practicing for and trying to compete with two 3/3 programs or a 3/3 and a quad back then?

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On the whole, no.
Are you talking about both men and ladies?
Actually, for ca. 1990, the junior skater who comes to mind as doing 3-3s and quads is Surya Bonaly, who won Junior Worlds in 1991 and was also competing as a senior at the same time. I don't know offhand if she attempted quads or 3-3s in junior competitions, but she was trying them in seniors and competing junior and doi

Lu Chen was also doing junior and senior in 91 and 92 and attempting 3toe-3toe.

Elvis Stojko was both junior and senior and attempting quads in 1990.

There probably were a few more, but they were exceptions.

The GP series and ISU events did not exist until '95 (not sure of the exact year) and in my experience, training always intensifies prior to competitive events.

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The GP *series* didn't exist as a series until 1995-96, but Skate America, Skate Canada, Nation's Cup, Lalique, and NHK had all been around since the 1970s or '80s, and the skaters did train for them even when there were only medals to be won and not series points or prize money. Perhaps not quite as intensely though.

Not sure what you mean by "ISU events."

For example, with men and the quad, there was Kurt at the '88 Worlds, but at the '92 and '94 Olympics, none of the top contenders and certainly none of the medal winners attempted a quad.

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http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5106&perpage=15&pagenumber=2

See this thread for a discussion of quads at the Olympics. There certainly were top contenders attempting them in 1992. (And Stojko had been practicing quad-triple at Lillehammer, took it out of his Olympic program to replace a popped triple axel, but tried and almost succeeded in his winning long program at 1994 Worlds.)

The trend then was the 3Axel/3t combo. Although Elvis Stojko was landing quads on a pretty consistent basis in the early '90s, landing the first competitive 4/2 combo in '91, and the Chinese men were great at landing quads by the mid '90s, the integration of quads as a regular and expected part of elite men's competitive skating didn't take off until after the '98 Olympics, where Ilia Kulik was the first to land an Olympic quad.

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I don't know. I think the 1997 Champions Series final, where Kulik landed his first clean quad, Urmanov landed his first clean one in five years, and Stojko landed the first clean quad-triple (which he also repeated at '97 Worlds) had sparked the race for the men to include quads in Nagano. Yagudin landing several earlier in the 97-98 season, and some little barely-15-year-old alternate pulling a silver medal at Europeans with an almost-clean 4-3 indicated that the trend was already underway before the Olympics, as did Eldredge's attempt at '98 US Nationals.

Goebel, by the way, had been attempting quad salchow in junior events that year and finally succeeded at the JGP final, which took place after the Olympics. He had to withdraw from 98 Junior Worlds and Nationals because of injury, which may indeed have been attributable at least in part to all that quad practice.

GKelly: Once again I appreciate the information you've provided on who landed what when and your thoughts on other things, such as whether the quad trend for men as a whole started in '97 rather than '98. Also, to address your question as to whether I'm talking about ladies or men when I asked, "Were junior skaters on the whole practicing for and trying to compete with two 3/3 programs or a 3/3 and a quad back then [ie, '88 through '94]?" I was talking about ladies. Sorry, I should have specified.

You asked what I meant by *ISU events.* Those are what are generally known on the boards as the *cheesefests.* The (Name of Sponsor) International Challenge, etc. They are sponsored by the ISU and are held mainly to make money for the ISU. Skaters must be invited and they are either marquee names like Michelle Kwan or Evgeni Plushenko and/or recent World medalists.

Also, you did say you agreed with my general points and just wanted to clarify a few facts. But perhaps I haven't made the point of my posts clear. As I said, I appreciate all the information you have provided and it is integral to the discussion up to a point. But to forum members in general, it seems the discussion continues to focus on the trees rather than the forest. In other words, I'm wondering why the discussion continues to focus on the details of individual skaters' jumping stats rather than the question of elite skaters' injuries in general and whether a possible increase in the number and severity of those injuries is related to an overall increase in the demand for HRJC (High Rotation Jumps and/or Combos)?

I realize the posts are long--actually they are intended as articles rather than posts--the most recent one has only been up one day, and perhaps I've failed to make the point of these posts clear. So I'll try to summarize.

As I said in my last post:

Actually, the only case I was trying to make is that the whole issue of the increased number of HRJC being done and any possible links to increased number and/or severity of injuries deserves research funding from the ISU and major federations. Some skaters will always suffer career-ending injuries no matter what the technical requirements. Some skaters will thrive and skate almost inury-free no matter what the technical requirements. But I feel the organizations in charge of a sport, especially where minors are involved--and so many minors at that--have a responsibility to put money into research to make sure the demands of the sport are reasonably safe. For me, *reasonably safe* would have to be determined by a group of those who have been involved in many levels of the sport for decades--coaches, skaters, and medical personnel who have an understanding of the number of serious injuries they've seen over the last 25 years.

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At any rate, you can look at individual cases of skaters or those of a few skaters and come to the conclusion that either increased demands for HRJC are not a significant cause of serious injury or that they are. That's why well-designed studies are needed to look at the multiple variables among a significant sample of elite skaters. However, the need for studies doesn't nullify the importance of observation. When you have every sports medicine physician and trainer who has ever worked with skaters say they've never seen the kind of hip injuries they've been seeing on an increasingly regular basis over the past six to eight years, I think it's time to sit up and take notice.

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I want to emphasize that I have absolutely no desire to hold back the technical demands of the sport. I have been as thrilled by a gorgeous HRJC as anybody and continue to be. I also have no doubt that 10 or 15 years from now, all the things I noted above that now lag behind in keeping the majority of skaters from suffering career-ending injuries will have caught up to the demands of the sport. My concern is for the next five to 10 years, especially for skaters under age 18, though as I said before, 18 is not carved in stone; it's just an age to make the point that there needs to be an age or age range recognized as that of maturity to protect skaters who are still developing.

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BTW, if you think there must be plenty of research on figure skating injuries, according to a search of the Internet medical research database, PubMed, from 1979 to 2003 there have been exactly 20 studies concering some aspect of figure skating injuries and several of those only mention figure skating while looking at female or winter sports athletes in general or else in the context of studying inline skating. Compare that to the search I did under *dancers injuries*--196 studies since 1966, and *gymastics injuries*--458 studies since 1954.

For figure skating that's less than one study a year since 1979. And only the most recent study, one from Croatia, looked at a significant number of skaters, ie, 233 female and 236 male junior skaters. Most studies had a sample of 20 skaters or less. There have been no comprehensive studies of injuries among elite senior skaters.

....So, 458, 196, 20. Is that okay by you? It's not okay by me.

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My questions are these. Sorry if they sound like a quiz, lol:

• --Do forum members feel the number and severity of figure skating injuries has reached or is reaching an unacceptably high level?
  --If yes, do people feel the injury rates are related to the increased demands for High Rotation Jumps and/or Combos?
  --If no, why?
  --If yes to the first question, do people feel that other factors such as equipment, ie, boots; condition of the ice; training regimens on and/or off the ice; rules; or anything else is contributing to the problem?
  --If yes to the first question, what do people feel should be done about the situation?

Here's another list:

• Tara Lipinski
  Naomi Nari Nam
  Alexei Yagudin
  Deanna Stellato
  Timothy Goebel
  Elena Sokolova
  Sarah Hughes
  Michelle Kwan
  Sasha Cohen
  Elvis Stojko
  Alexei Urmanov

These are just the skaters I could think of off the top of my head who have suffered some kind of serious injury, which I define as either one serious enough to significantly restrict their ability to skate for several months, take them out of competition for at least one season, or end their career as a result of training to do HRJC. For example, Michelle fractured her toe in late '97 while training the 3t/3t. It affected her jumping ability for the '98 Olympics. Sasha Cohen had a stress fracture in her lower back that apparently occurred in late '00 and prevented her from competing at '01 Nationals and, if she'd made the team, possibly '01 Worlds as well. Elvis Stojko and Alexei Urmanov both experienced tears of the groin muscles, ie, those that pull the legs together in order to get fast and adequate rotation for quads and quad combos. Sarah Hughes and Elena Sokolova each experienced knee injuries and Sarah also had ankle injuries after their first full season of competing with 3/3s.

My concern is that either on the way to the '06 Olympics or after them, we will see other amazing skaters experience similar problems. How would we feel if skaters such as Michelle, Sasha, Jenny, Shizuka, Miki, Fumie, Yukina Ota, Mao Asada, Mai Asada, Carolina Kostner, and others suddenly dropped from the scene because of injury? Of course the same goes for the men. I realize elite sports is very Darwinian--survival of the fittest--but of the above list of skaters who were/are injured, many were/are the fittest. Could it be that the ISU and the stronger federations are not doing enough to make sure that the majority of the fittest can do what is expected of them in terms of jumps within an acceptable degree of injury risk?

How would we feel if Michelle Kwan was unable to continue skating at all because of a serious injury? She's been very fortunate with injuries, she's been very wise in the way she takes care of her body, but as Naomi Nari Nam described her injury, she was practicing a 3Lutz when she heard and felt a *pop* in her hip. From what she describes, there was no warning, no gradual build-up of pain. One day, the tissues that had been pushed close to their limits were pushed beyond their limits.

I know I probably sound like the boy crying "Wolf!" and who wants to hear it? Besides, if the skater is really good, s/he won't get seriously injured, right? Right? Like Alexei Yagudin, Elvis, NNN, Tara, etc.

Anyway, that's my pitch. If people aren't interested or don't feel the problem is that serious, of course that's their prerogative and I'll drop the issue. If enough people are interested and want to start an email campaign to encourage the ISU and USFSA to fund more research into figure skating injuries, I'll organize it.
Rgirl

Rgirl
I completely agree with your post. If the organizations in charge of the sport won't fund the appropraite research, we will continue to lose not only the best and brightest, but who knows how many others who will no longer be able to skate just for fun because of injuries.

Thanks for your comments, Bronxgirl.

BTW, I'm a Northern Manattan Girl, right near the GWB. Depending on where you are, we're almost neighbors.
Rgirl

If enough people are interested and want to start an email campaign to encourage the ISU and USFSA to fund more research into figure skating injuries, I'll organize it. -- Rgirl

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Rgirl,

Whenever I see a gang of rambunctious college students gallivanting around campus, I can't help thinking to myself, "If only all that energy could be turned to something good."

We Golden Skate regulars spend countless hours having fun by posting our opinions about everything under the sun. What if took all that excess energy and devoted it to a cause worthy of our efforts? Well, here it is. A crusade to convince the ISU, the USFSA and other influential movers and shakers of the sport seriously to address the epidemic of injuries caused by too much jump training with inadequate equipment (if that is indeed the primary cause of the rash of injuries that we are seeing).

By the numbers, GS has 2727 registered members. Most are active, since these are people who registered after the board went to V-Bulletin in July. Many thousands more read the articles on the GS main page, subscribe to the GS newsletter, or browse the forum as guests from other Internet skating sites. I have every confidence that a well-organized email campaign on this issue could definitely attract the attention of the powers that be.

Actually, this is by no means an adversarial situation. Surely the USFSA and others are well aware of the problem. As evidenced by the recent interest (finally!) in developing the hinged boot, I am sure that these organizations would welcome our input. We could also invite other boards to participate. FSU has something like 5000 members, and fan boards for particular skaters are very active (the Alexei Yagudin board has over 10,000 members). If we could get a substantial number of such folks to participate, I think we would have something to build on. The Michelle Kwan Forum, for instance, raised over $20,000 last year to strike a special medal for Michelle and to make a substantial charitable donation in her honor.

Rgirl, I propose that to start the ball rolling, you write up your recent posts in the form of an op-ed article. We can submit this to Paula to see if she wants to publish it on GS and feature it in the newsletter. Besides the list of articles on the GS main page, there is the "Writer’s Edge" section of GS where longer and more specializes features can go. In fact, maybe a two-parter: a shorter call to arms, and a longer, well-researched scholarly-type thingy.

After this, we can write up a template for an email to the USFSA, or whomever we select as the appropriate target. GS members who want to participate can either just send the form letter, or follow the guide of the template and customize it, or write their own letter.

This is a lot of work, R. If you are offering to do it, I am pretty sure that we can drum up a lot of support. I will be glad to help you. Maybe some others will want to volunteer to serve on some sort of committee, to keep records of correspondence, etc. I think this is a serious proposal that merits our serious attention. If we work together, maybe we can accomplish something after all, instead of just arguing about who has the prettiest layback, LOL.

Mathman

Rgirl- I'm Bronx born and raised (Pelham Parkway area)and have always considered it home, no matter where I was at school or living. Currently, my job has brought me to the wilds of CT, where I can't get a decent bagel to save my life and I've given up all hope of good Chinese takeout. I do plan on getting back to NY as soon as I can transfer back home.
That said, mathman, it seems even more absurd that the USOC hasn't funded these sorts of studies. It is one of the premiere events of the Winter Games, and as they are (rightly) concerned about the use of performance enhancing drugs, the performance of equipment should be just as important. Did all of the improvemnt in skiis and bindings come just from manufacturers? Didn't the need to protect the athletes (olympic and others) help to force the improvements?
Where is the USOC (forget the ISU, speed skaters don't jump)? It is time for those of us who daven back and forth about whose lutz is a flutz should become involved in ensuring the safety of all of the skaters. (Geez, the 60s are coming back in a rush)

I think NNN should consider a switch of disciple, either pairs or dance. I think she would be spectacular to watch in either one, with her expression...

Longhornliz said:

I agree, I have watched the video of her landing her quad and 3/3 combo at japanese junior nationals several times... and although its amazing that she can do this.... it isnt pretty to watch.

Everything comes and goes in cycles... so maybe in future years the artistry will again be the trump card in figure skating. Its interesting to think about how the sport has evolved over the years. Its not too long ago that they traced figures and judges examined them with magnifying glasses. Who knows what the future holds in regards to the level of jumping that will be expected from the ladies (and men for that matter).

Just because miki (and sasha almost) has the quad. i dont think that will become the standard to which skaters are judged. The women arent exactly throwing the 3A out there after the few who have landed it in the past.

I agree that NNN will probably never be able to make it back to the level she might have reached... I just hope she is able to become a contender at nationals in the next year.

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I, too, thought NNN could do pairs and said so once. I heard she did a throw triple, just messing around with friends. But, posters advised me that a hip injury like she (& others of similar circumstance) suffered would be in more danger of new injury from pairs than from continuing a slow climb back into singles.

I thought NNN did well at sectionals, though she missed Nationals by a spot. But she's added even more body mass and is finding it difficult to keep going. I don't think she's grown so much in height (is she even over 5'2" at all?) as in body mass. This would seem to eliminate pairs, too.

IMO only, much contributes to sports injuries--but in this case, repetition and Nick's technique that allowed Sasha and NNN to gain early "triples" (and early recognition)seem (to me) to have taken the worst toll. Someone already noted how Nicks allowed them to perform triples with the free leg stopping atop the landing foot (a technical two-foot) before sweeping into the follow-through. The knee and hip on that landing leg necessarily became the "stop", absorbing full impact of the rotation and body weight/inertia. Nobody can NOT pay a price for that after a zillion repetitious impacts, no matter the equipment.

So, I guess what I think by saying this is that the pressure for a young girl to obtain triples early in order to make an early mark among her competitiors, no matter how, is the culprit for these disastrous injuries ( more than equipment ). And, I don't think that making the rule about being 15 before being allowed to compete internationally has made a dent in the trend, since most kids in this sport start practicing at such young ages, and want to be in good position the MOMENT that they reach 15.

Also, do coaches, parents, and others hope to "get all the triples mastered" before the girls start their "womanly growth spurts"? Can people learn these jumps AFTER the growing is done? Or, is that impossible? Or, do they go after these jumps to get them before puberty strikes knowing that, if they get the jumps and get recognized, they will be "forgiven" for having a few rough years while they pass through puberty. but in the long run, they need the recognition first? Honestly, this makes me crazy trying to figure this out sometimes. It's not the most earth-shattering problem, but it does make an ugly implication about this sport and the state of sports in general: where is the line between holding back a great talent or knowingly placing a child at risk for grave bodily injury? At the base of it, adults are responsible, even the adult fans. And yet, we know it will always be thus, and so we are participants.

I just watched NNN's 1999 LP video again and some of the commentary was really sad. Peggy said that NNN's goal was to win 2 olympic gold medals, and that with each year she was growing closer to that goal. And then at the end of her inspired performance Dick said, "someone turn on the spotlight because here is a girl who was born to be in it. I checked out her official site, and it hasnt been updated in years from what I can tell, I hope that she is able to make a comeback or perhaps switch disciplines to pairs (if she is not too big. I'm confused by what I have read above... is she chunky these days? or just not impossibly tiny like a pairs skater needs to be?)

Superb post, Pipsqueak. I appreciate your insightful contributions.
Rgirl

Pipsqueak, that was a good point you made about parents, coaches and skaters pushing to get all the triples before puberty, in order to get "recognition" to carry them through the bad years. That might be one of the points that the USFSA might want to consider in the anti-injury campaign that we are about to force upon them, LOL.

Unfortunately, it's still hard to know what to do about it. Young skaters are going to want to push themselves to the top no matter what. Maybe there could be some rules changes about which elements can be presented in an intermediate or novice program.

Mathman

Great Thread...

When the letter writing campaign is organized, please count me in.

RGirl, I really appreciate your passion for this issue. Since the season is over and we've all had a chance to take a deep breath, I've given some thought to this subject.

In so many ways the ISU and associated country based federations really seem to be living in the dark ages in terms of advancing the sport of figure skating. The skaters keep advancing in terms of technical difficulty, but the organizations don't seem to change at all, at least from my limited view. There is so much technology available these days in terms of desigining and developing sport equipment, sports medicine, etc.

When I think of the ISU, the first thoughts that come to mind are "politiks" and "sekret komputers" and judging scandals and power plays, and the list goes on. It seems a lot of time, money and energy is devoted to the activities related to these political issues than to advancement of the sport.

I agree RGirl that studies need to take place with significant numbers of skaters participating. It's one thing for a limited number of skaters who happen to be particularly gifted in an area such as Big Jumps to perform some Big Tricks. When I say naturally gifted I mean their particular bodies happen to be built optimally to perform certain things. Surya Bonalay comes to mind as a naturally gifted jumper. Sasha has trailer loads of natural flexibility. I think it's when a Big Trick takes hold and becomes essentially necessary for all the top skaters that the problems seem to kick in.

Other sports have certainly progressed to new "records" with the help of technology, research, nutrition programs, conditioning programs, etc. No reason why this couldn't happen for figure skating as well. I hope the leaders of the ISU get their heads out of the political sands, put the shoddy judging and so forth behind them, and start focusing on advancing the sport.

DG