Which skaters have correct jumping technique?
- Thread starter lutzlover
- Start date
If you ask the Tech panel from the Ladies FS,
Almost no one has faultless jumping technique
For Ashley Wagner, How is hopping into a perfectly good 2Axle right out of a triple telegraphing ?
Honestly, I wasn't even thinking of that axel. I was just looking at her 2A+3T in her Worlds LP and on the set up, she kind of just...waited? A split second too long to be natural. I remember seeing a warm-up (for her SP? I think) and she was doing a 2A and waited even longer (and not bc there were skaters in her way). Nathan does the same on his 3A, except he waits even longer. Seeing as they're both coached by Raphael, I guess that's the technique he teaches.
How does he even land on his feet? His whole upper body is pointed towards the ice...I guess his body has adapted to jumping that way and can pull it off.
Why do women have a harder time with Lutz? Sorry if this is a not-PC question or if it leads to not-PC answers. It's been bugging me some time. When I look at the protocols of any international event almost always I see majority of top 10 finishers were unable to execute correct Lutz.
Its the only jump where I see a stark difference between men and women, technique-wise.
Its the only jump where I see a stark difference between men and women, technique-wise.
Just a guess but maybe because it's one of the last triples (I think) a junior/senior lady learns so it still needs improvement/refinement compared to the other "easier" triples, even when the lutz is in the program. Also, flutzes are a common habit among lower level skaters, and it's common for coaches to never attempt to fix it. Especially when one has done flutzes for years, it's very hard to break the habit, and changing the jump could possibly result in the skater losing the jump altogether. Maybe coaches figure why not land a triple flutz combo than fall on a triple lutz...?
- Joined
- Aug 29, 2013
Caro an Tukta are the best jumpers!!!
I love Anna, but she has gotten consistently called for the wrong edge on the triple flip. There's a reason she does the 3Lo in her SP. Otherwise, I agree that her jumps are very strong. I love her huge 3Lz.
My vote also goes to Carolina. Her jumps are gorgeous when she's on; she does all 5 non axel triples with good edges. She's been telegraphing them less lately, too. Except for the 2A, it's not as great s her other jumps. Yu-Na is also very good, but the questionable edge on her flip and lack of 3Lo put Carolina ahead, IMO.
- Joined
- Jan 11, 2014
not only bad jumping techniques but also she has tinyyyyyy jump
I disagree with the theory of order learned. I think issue has more to do with the female bone structure and how weight is balanced over the boot/blade, than the actual difficulty of the jump. For natural "jumpers," it seems the lutz comes relatively easy, it is the salchow that is tricky. I have seen it this issue with "jumpers" that are working both their double and triples.
But I do agree that if a flutz is not corrected early, it will be almost impossible to fix years later.
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2009
This issue has been discussed previously, and it has been noted that women tend to flutz, and men tend to lip alot in competition. The reason, as I recall, is that men are naturally stronger than women, so they have th muscular strength to stay on the outer edge, and as long as you have the ability to stay on an outer edge, then it is actually a more secure edge to take off from than the inner edge, so men will lip their flip. Women, on the other hand, tend not to have the muscular capacity to easily stay on the outer edge, or at least they don't have the muscular strength to stay on the outer edge all the way through to the moment of take off, so they tend to flutz.
It can sometimes be that a woman will lip/lutz due to the shape of her legs. In other words, if a woman is very bow-legged, then she can lutz without even having the muscular strength per se but because nowadays, under CoP, you can do a lutz with a very short preparation, which, in fact, is not a 'true' lutz. Carolina does a true lutz in that she has a long prep. I sometimes wonder if she maintains the outer edge the whole way through, though.
It can sometimes be that a woman will lip/lutz due to the shape of her legs. In other words, if a woman is very bow-legged, then she can lutz without even having the muscular strength per se but because nowadays, under CoP, you can do a lutz with a very short preparation, which, in fact, is not a 'true' lutz. Carolina does a true lutz in that she has a long prep. I sometimes wonder if she maintains the outer edge the whole way through, though.
What are you talking about?
Doing a lutz with short preparation is not a "true lutz"? Doing a lutz with long prep is a true lutz? 
- Joined
- Sep 22, 2010
What are you talking about?
Where's that jump dictionary that says a Lutz requires a long, telegraphed set up?
- Joined
- Feb 9, 2014
Yuna Kim has perfect technique on her Lutz, Flip, Toeloop, and Axel. They are all the best in the world. Her salchow is actually pretty consistent too but not amazing.
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2011
If Carolina was capable of doing Julia-style transitions into all her triples she would have the best technique IMO. Since she isn't, I agree Yuna in general. I'd agree with you on Mao's toe jumps (not only the flutz, but her flip entry is rather unorthodox and her 3T combinations were never the best) but her loop combinations are among the best. Adelina's 3-3Loop may be more rotated on a good day but Mao's 3-3Lo combinations have smoother landings with slightly better flow out.
Where's that jump dictionary that says a Lutz requires a long, telegraphed set up?
I guess Carolina Kostner has the truest Lutz in the world!What are you talking about?
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2009
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tWmm4AKmgc
Also, see: http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_j_lutz.htm
Or so it used to be pre-CoP. It had to be a long glide to make sure that the counter-rotational pull to start up the rotation was totally generated by the outer edge of the non-pick feet (which is what makes a lutz a lutz). After-CoP, the very long backward glide no longer became mandatory and could be cut shorter by putting in 'transitions' which means that the pull to start up the rotation is not totally generated by the outer edge of the non-pick feet. Hence, you have the 'true lutz' and the 'lutz' as per recognized under CoP.
Also, see: http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_j_lutz.htm
Or so it used to be pre-CoP. It had to be a long glide to make sure that the counter-rotational pull to start up the rotation was totally generated by the outer edge of the non-pick feet (which is what makes a lutz a lutz). After-CoP, the very long backward glide no longer became mandatory and could be cut shorter by putting in 'transitions' which means that the pull to start up the rotation is not totally generated by the outer edge of the non-pick feet. Hence, you have the 'true lutz' and the 'lutz' as per recognized under CoP.
Not because I do not trust your words or anything but that explanation is a little dissatisfying. So the answer simply comes down to leg strength? Men = Stronger legs = Lutz capable? (w/ tendency to Lip)
Can those who skate/skated actually attest to this? Does it require more leg strength to do lutz, and furthermore that is the reason why women are more prone to flutz?
- Joined
- Sep 17, 2011
It only says "usually" entered, though. In the early days of the short program, the ISU required a double Lutz out of steps every few years, and no one ever thought that disqualified the jump from being a double Lutz. Here's Midori's.
- Joined
- Aug 8, 2009
Actually, differentiating flip and lutz is a big problem in CoP, I think. Differentiating between the two seems to be reduced down to just looking at the final moments of the take off and seeing if it's on the inside or outside edge, and it seems like if it's on the outside edge at the moment of take off, it's deemed a lutz, and if it's on the inside edge at the moment of take off, it's deemed a flip. But it really shouldn't be like that. But since transitions before jumps are encouraged in CoP, it's literally impossible to differentiate between flip and lutz that takes into account the true nature of these jumps.
That I agree to a degree. But I don't think it is a big problem and judges/tech should be able to tell them apart. Plus skaters submit their routines ahead so that should help.
The difference is distinct in that flip is a technique that converts speed into height, and lutz is about spring-like counter force, so they have multiple tools to tell lutz and flip apart plus the take-off edge.
The difference is distinct in that flip is a technique that converts speed into height, and lutz is about spring-like counter force, so they have multiple tools to tell lutz and flip apart plus the take-off edge.
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