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Thread: Which skaters have correct jumping technique?

  1. #31
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    This issue has been discussed previously, and it has been noted that women tend to flutz, and men tend to lip alot in competition. The reason, as I recall, is that men are naturally stronger than women, so they have th muscular strength to stay on the outer edge, and as long as you have the ability to stay on an outer edge, then it is actually a more secure edge to take off from than the inner edge, so men will lip their flip. Women, on the other hand, tend not to have the muscular capacity to easily stay on the outer edge, or at least they don't have the muscular strength to stay on the outer edge all the way through to the moment of take off, so they tend to flutz.

    It can sometimes be that a woman will lip/lutz due to the shape of her legs. In other words, if a woman is very bow-legged, then she can lutz without even having the muscular strength per se but because nowadays, under CoP, you can do a lutz with a very short preparation, which, in fact, is not a 'true' lutz. Carolina does a true lutz in that she has a long prep. I sometimes wonder if she maintains the outer edge the whole way through, though.

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    It can sometimes be that a woman will lip/lutz due to the shape of her legs. In other words, if a woman is very bow-legged, then she can lutz without even having the muscular strength per se but because nowadays, under CoP, you can do a lutz with a very short preparation, which, in fact, is not a 'true' lutz. Carolina does a true lutz in that she has a long prep. I sometimes wonder if she maintains the outer edge the whole way through, though.
    What are you talking about? Doing a lutz with short preparation is not a "true lutz"? Doing a lutz with long prep is a true lutz?

  3. #33
    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    What are you talking about? Doing a lutz with short preparation is not a "true lutz"? Doing a lutz with long prep is a true lutz?
    Where's that jump dictionary that says a Lutz requires a long, telegraphed set up?

  4. #34
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    Yuna Kim has perfect technique on her Lutz, Flip, Toeloop, and Axel. They are all the best in the world. Her salchow is actually pretty consistent too but not amazing.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    Yuna had the best jump technique. Not because of height but because of her landings and flow out. I still think height is about the least important 'bullet'to satisfy. If you can't flow right back into the music and weave your jumps into your artistry than I loose interest very quickly and to be frank don't see the point. I mean the jumps have to be performed well but I don't lik it when they disrupt the program via stalking or worse landing at a near crawl. Other than Mao's 3a I wouldn't try to jump like her. I don't even think I'd want to jump like Yulia. She spins so hard it seems quite painful but then again I'd rather eat scissors than attempt any of her spins.. I like Tuks jumps but I think she is a prime example of a jumper overly focused on height and maybe jumps too high for her frame and now just falls a lot. Jumping smaller and more controlled sometimes is smarter. Yulia steals +2's sometimes for her jumps based on multiple other bullets used to award GOE. It's like performing a level 3 StSeq for higher GOE than failing to deliver a level 4.
    If Carolina was capable of doing Julia-style transitions into all her triples she would have the best technique IMO. Since she isn't, I agree Yuna in general. I'd agree with you on Mao's toe jumps (not only the flutz, but her flip entry is rather unorthodox and her 3T combinations were never the best) but her loop combinations are among the best. Adelina's 3-3Loop may be more rotated on a good day but Mao's 3-3Lo combinations have smoother landings with slightly better flow out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    Where's that jump dictionary that says a Lutz requires a long, telegraphed set up?
    Quote Originally Posted by jaylee View Post
    What are you talking about? Doing a lutz with short preparation is not a "true lutz"? Doing a lutz with long prep is a true lutz?
    I guess Carolina Kostner has the truest Lutz in the world!

  6. #36
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tWmm4AKmgc

    Also, see: http://www.sk8stuff.com/f_recog/recog_j_lutz.htm

    The Lutz is a counter rotated jump. It takes off from a LBO edge (with toe pick assist), turns, then lands on the RBO edge. It is one of the most recognizable of jumps, because it is usually entered from a very long straight backwards glide across the full diagonal of the arena. After the long glide on the left foot, the skater usually leans a little bit to the left (proving to the judges that she is on an outside edge), picks with the right foot and jumps.
    Or so it used to be pre-CoP. It had to be a long glide to make sure that the counter-rotational pull to start up the rotation was totally generated by the outer edge of the non-pick feet (which is what makes a lutz a lutz). After-CoP, the very long backward glide no longer became mandatory and could be cut shorter by putting in 'transitions' which means that the pull to start up the rotation is not totally generated by the outer edge of the non-pick feet. Hence, you have the 'true lutz' and the 'lutz' as per recognized under CoP.

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    This issue has been discussed previously, and it has been noted that women tend to flutz, and men tend to lip alot in competition. The reason, as I recall, is that men are naturally stronger than women, so they have th muscular strength to stay on the outer edge, and as long as you have the ability to stay on an outer edge, then it is actually a more secure edge to take off from than the inner edge, so men will lip their flip. Women, on the other hand, tend not to have the muscular capacity to easily stay on the outer edge, or at least they don't have the muscular strength to stay on the outer edge all the way through to the moment of take off, so they tend to flutz.
    Not because I do not trust your words or anything but that explanation is a little dissatisfying. So the answer simply comes down to leg strength? Men = Stronger legs = Lutz capable? (w/ tendency to Lip)

    Can those who skate/skated actually attest to this? Does it require more leg strength to do lutz, and furthermore that is the reason why women are more prone to flutz?

  8. #38
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    It only says "usually" entered, though. In the early days of the short program, the ISU required a double Lutz out of steps every few years, and no one ever thought that disqualified the jump from being a double Lutz. Here's Midori's.

  9. #39
    Custom Title hurrah's Avatar
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    Actually, differentiating flip and lutz is a big problem in CoP, I think. Differentiating between the two seems to be reduced down to just looking at the final moments of the take off and seeing if it's on the inside or outside edge, and it seems like if it's on the outside edge at the moment of take off, it's deemed a lutz, and if it's on the inside edge at the moment of take off, it's deemed a flip. But it really shouldn't be like that. But since transitions before jumps are encouraged in CoP, it's literally impossible to differentiate between flip and lutz that takes into account the true nature of these jumps.

  10. #40
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    That I agree to a degree. But I don't think it is a big problem and judges/tech should be able to tell them apart. Plus skaters submit their routines ahead so that should help.

    The difference is distinct in that flip is a technique that converts speed into height, and lutz is about spring-like counter force, so they have multiple tools to tell lutz and flip apart plus the take-off edge.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Or so it used to be pre-CoP. It had to be a long glide to make sure that the counter-rotational pull to start up the rotation was totally generated by the outer edge of the non-pick feet (which is what makes a lutz a lutz). After-CoP, the very long backward glide no longer became mandatory and could be cut shorter by putting in 'transitions' which means that the pull to start up the rotation is not totally generated by the outer edge of the non-pick feet. Hence, you have the 'true lutz' and the 'lutz' as per recognized under CoP.
    Sounds like you're making stuff up. "True lutz" and "lutz" indeed.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by CARA View Post
    Yuna is known to have strong jump technique with only occasional edge call on her flip (thanks to Mr. Amano). Her Lutz is text book-correct edge, unlike many other female skaters.

    Interestingly, British Eurosport commentators praised Park So Youn's jumps in that "Tech panel don't have to review any of her jumps." "Nothing's wrong with her flip," and Lutz is also strong, according to them. I guess Korean coaches must be doing something right to instill strong jumping techniques to their students.
    I think Korean coaches stress proper technique a lot. I watched most of the Korean hats and all the ladies seemed to have correct edge on both lutz and flip. No fluzting whatsoever. Little Yunas in the making.. hopefully.

  13. #43
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    The entrance determines which jump it is. If there was counter rotation happening as the takeoff starts, it's a Lutz. Otherwise it's a Flip.

  14. #44
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    3Lz Yuna/Caro
    3F Caro/Yuna
    3Lo Caro/Mao
    3S Caro/Yuna
    3T Yuna

    I'll put Yuna for 3T since her 3T on her combination has a good height and flow. I can only imagine what her solo 3T would look like since, well, I can't even remember the last time she did a solo 3T, I know she had 3T+3T before, just can't recall. I've always wondered if Yuna was able to do a 4T

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melon View Post
    3Lz Yuna/Caro
    3F Caro/Yuna
    3Lo Caro/Mao
    3S Caro/Yuna
    3T Yuna
    I think for me, at least.. The best ladies lutz: Caro's 3Lz at the beginning of the Bolero at 2013 worlds was amazing. I think Yuna's 2013 Worlds Les mis, Flip is the best flip.

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