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Thread: What Does It Mean to Master a Jump?

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    skating philosopher Mrs. P's Avatar
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    What Does It Mean to Master a Jump?

    This is a spin off a discussion on the Men's FS thread. The topic of Jason Brown and his 3A came up.

    Many argue that he hasn't mastered the jump because he struggled with it in the FS. But as I point out, he is 7 for 7 in +GOE in the SP.

    Which begs the question, what does it mean to master the jump? Does it mean having a certain hit rate in practice or competition? And how would we define that hit rate == 70 percent? 80 percent?

    What do you count---ratification (but no fall)? ratification + GOE? Something else?

    ETA: Also, how much does executing it in competition comes in to play? There are reports of Yuzuru Hanyu getting the 4S in practice but he's fallen or popped it on 3/5 attempts internationally. Does that mean he hasn't mastered the jump or just that it hasn't clicked in competition?
    Last edited by Mrs. P; 03-31-2014 at 06:33 PM.

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    I believe Frank Caroll likes to see a skater have 90% success rate in practice before putting it in a program. (I not certain on the number though) So that would be one measure of mastery.

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    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    I would say a telling sign would be when a skater is past the mechanics of the jump itself and executes the jump with a free mind and a sole focus on the exit/transition out. If they approach and think about their entry or air position they clearly haven't mastered it and my not be ready for the most important part. The landing of said jump. When you approach a jump and are thinking of the edge you intend to ride out on..I'd say then your golden!

    It's similar to a golfer not focusing on hitting the ball but instead shaping the shot with the follow thru. Come to think of it...that might be the basic thought behind all sports. Free your mind and the rest will follow.

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    Cheering Wildly from the stands
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    From a spectators POV, I'd say mastering a jump is when I don't have to cross my fingers and hold by breath when they are going for it.
    For example, I do that with Jason Brown's 3A, Hanyu's 4S, Daisuke's 4T, Patrick's 3A, etc.
    This is NOT a well defined way to tell if someone has mastered a jump, just a measuring stick for if the audience thinks they have.

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    Mastery is the ability to do jump with good execution and consistency. The jump should be executable out of nothingness.

    The sign of a truly mastered jump? People are shocked when you miss it.

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    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    I would say a telling sign would be when a skater is past the mechanics of the jump itself and executes the jump with a free mind and a sole focus on the exit/transition out. If they approach and think about their entry or air position they clearly haven't mastered it and my not be ready for the most important part. The landing of said jump. When you approach a jump and are thinking of the edge you intend to ride out on..I'd say then your golden!
    I disagree. With all jumps, even very basic ones that a skater has been doing for a long time, there needs to be a focus on what your intention is which means the mechanics of the jump, even on a jump you have mastered. If you are focusing on the edge you intend to ride out on versus some key, you aren't doing it right.

    Mastery means that your mental process is the same and the mechanics and timing are the same on every attempt of that jump. For example, on my (single) Axel that I would say I have mastered, I focus on how long I feel like I am "loaded" before I jump. Mind you, I rarely miss Axels, even in practice from a variety of entries.

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    Right, but there also has to be a sense of quality. (Although I'm sure your axels are good quality!) A jump isn't truly mastered if it's poorly executed, even if it's cleanly executed all the time. Like, I don't think anyone would call Lipnitskaia a master of the 2A, even though she usually lands it.

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    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    My Axel is of good quality for an "old lady".
    Agreed about execution. I would say that Lipnitskaia "owns" the 2A as she usually lands it, but she is a "master" of some spin positions. I would say Midori Ito was a master of the 2A as she is still landing deep into her 40s.

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    Custom Title lbc2138's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Mastery is the ability to do jump with good execution and consistency. The jump should be executable out of nothingness.

    The sign of a truly mastered jump? People are shocked when you miss it.
    I like that criterion, simple and to the point!

    Haha like how Yuzuru can do a 3 Axel at a standstill and when everyone was flabbergasted when he fell on the 4T at Worlds SP? I think that definitely fits your definition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    I would say that Lipnitskaia "owns" the 2A as she usually lands it, but she is a "master" of some spin positions. I would say Midori Ito was a master of the 2A as she is still landing deep into her 40s.
    Are we talking the verb or the noun "master"? I believe the OP was using the verb, so I would say Julia "has mastered" the 2A but isn't "a master" of it.

  11. #11
    Kisdom Title TMC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Mastery is the ability to do jump with good execution and consistency. The jump should be executable out of nothingness.

    The sign of a truly mastered jump? People are shocked when you miss it.
    +3 for perfect answer

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    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Mastery is the ability to do jump with good execution and consistency. The jump should be executable out of nothingness.

    The sign of a truly mastered jump? People are shocked when you miss it.
    3A from a standstill: http://youtu.be/fH9uvEgnTPo?t=06s
    4T 3A 3A sequence: http://youtu.be/6FdlSOHEzDU

    Can we call this case "master a jump"?

  13. #13
    Love popcorn, hate horendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Newbiespectator View Post
    From a spectators POV, I'd say mastering a jump is when I don't have to cross my fingers and hold by breath when they are going for it.
    For example, I do that with Jason Brown's 3A, Hanyu's 4S, Daisuke's 4T, Patrick's 3A, etc.
    This is NOT a well defined way to tell if someone has mastered a jump, just a measuring stick for if the audience thinks they have.
    You forgot Patrick's 2A.

  14. #14
    Best comeback EVOR! zamboni step's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    I disagree. With all jumps, even very basic ones that a skater has been doing for a long time, there needs to be a focus on what your intention is which means the mechanics of the jump, even on a jump you have mastered. If you are focusing on the edge you intend to ride out on versus some key, you aren't doing it right.

    Mastery means that your mental process is the same and the mechanics and timing are the same on every attempt of that jump. For example, on my (single) Axel that I would say I have mastered, I focus on how long I feel like I am "loaded" before I jump. Mind you, I rarely miss Axels, even in practice from a variety of entries.
    No I'd agree with Sam. Going into my flip, I don't think twice, all I'm thinking of is how to improve the landing edge. Yes you have to focus, but it's not like you get the feeling that you're trying to think of a million things at once which is a common occurrence when trying new jumps. Maybe it differs from person to person but I'd agree with the definition given.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    3A from a standstill: http://youtu.be/fH9uvEgnTPo?t=06s
    4T 3A 3A sequence: http://youtu.be/6FdlSOHEzDU

    Can we call this case "master a jump"?
    Yes, I think any and all of us would agree that Hanyu has mastered the triple axel. Going from a stop... that is absolutely crazy.

    I wouldn't say he's quite "mastered" the 4T yet, having some issues with it this year, but when he does do it, it's textbook.

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