I like your synopsis, 2A3TMom. The ladies are a real quagmire! As much as Gracie and Ashley see themselves at the head of the pack, I think their "mulligan" passes have been spent. Either they can do the jumps with the artistry or they can't. Really, how much more did either of them show than the other ladies listed in your summary. I am a Marai fan. I really hope she can harness the abilities she has along with the disappointment and determination of last year and put forward some strong competitive performances. I think all the ice shows she did with Stars on Ice and The Ice in Japan will help. Now she needs to put in the sweat equity to make the jumps solid and the artistry intricately woven. Polina is a wild card, for sure. Feeling like she may be a Kimmie Meisner but let's see.
State of US Ladies in skating III: 2014-15 Season
- Thread starter R.D.
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Yeah, MIRAI has shown up at Nationals year after year and shown the good stuff, and wowed the world at the GP year after year, too. She's shown Ashley and Gracie what a REAL skater can do. 
Give me a BREAK! Mirai hasn't been to Worlds since 2010, and she wasn't impressive there. I would just like to see her skate just once with some expression on her face. Maybe then the ISU judges would give her decent PCS scores.
Give me a BREAK! Mirai hasn't been to Worlds since 2010, and she wasn't impressive there. I would just like to see her skate just once with some expression on her face. Maybe then the ISU judges would give her decent PCS scores.
we get it, chuckm. you're not a mirai fan. but that doesn't mean you should give a negative response to a fellow fan's opinions. all opinions are valid. while i know it's hypocritical statement, your post seemed extremely cynical/non-constructive.
for the record. Mirai has shown great audience connection in her exhibition. Ashley is really good at her program artistry usually in the form as a strong, feisty woman. Gracie's approach is much more pageant/plastered. Reminds me of early Yukari Nakano, but Gracie could get better just like Yukari. Regarding technical elements. Ashley has the most consistent elements but not the most wow. Gracie doesn't have the consistency but had wow jumps. Now, they just get the job done but no wow factor anymore. Mirai still skates like 6.0 which I really like but always has her toe come down first so she's under. Ashley has the best step sequences. Mirai has the best spins. Gracie has the best jump combinations (i dont say jumps because both Mirai and Ashley have better loops and axels - Mirai edging out Ashley on axel).
for the record. Mirai has shown great audience connection in her exhibition. Ashley is really good at her program artistry usually in the form as a strong, feisty woman. Gracie's approach is much more pageant/plastered. Reminds me of early Yukari Nakano, but Gracie could get better just like Yukari. Regarding technical elements. Ashley has the most consistent elements but not the most wow. Gracie doesn't have the consistency but had wow jumps. Now, they just get the job done but no wow factor anymore. Mirai still skates like 6.0 which I really like but always has her toe come down first so she's under. Ashley has the best step sequences. Mirai has the best spins. Gracie has the best jump combinations (i dont say jumps because both Mirai and Ashley have better loops and axels - Mirai edging out Ashley on axel).
I just wanna add, dramatic facial expression is not everything, I was deeply touched by Mirai's SOI 2 EXs, Ashley was also very impressive, but Mirai's programs are the ones touches me the most. Mirai showed subtle but appropriate facial expressions in both of her EXs.
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I think he was just pointing out that it is asinine to say Gracie and Ashley "see themselves" as the head of the pack when, in fact, they are.
Pretty much all that needs to be said
I would say Wagner never had the so-called "wow factor", at least to me. I did like when she just threw caution to the wind and went for it, but even then my lasting impression wasn't "wow". It was more like "cool" or "great effort"
Mirai's "wow" element is her spins, which don't have enough point value to put her among the elite skaters. And sorry, but when a skater has average jumping ability and a blank facial expression, she isn't going to get high PCS scores from judges. Skaters aren't judged on their exhibitions, so it Mirai isn't able to carry expression over from her exhibitions to her performance programs, that won't help her get the job done when it counts.
I just hope for her sake that she DOES buckle down and practice hard consistently so her performances do improve. She will have to improve---the competition at home and internationally isn't getting any easier as more and more ladies are mastering the tougher 3/3s.
I just hope for her sake that she DOES buckle down and practice hard consistently so her performances do improve. She will have to improve---the competition at home and internationally isn't getting any easier as more and more ladies are mastering the tougher 3/3s.
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There are some great skaters who aren't great competitors, like Alissa and Sasha. The pressure of nationals seems to get to Mirai, which is understandable because she hasn't been to worlds in so long that every year adds more pressure and frustration to her nationals performances. We see in her practices and exhibitions that she has it all, but for whatever reason it doesn't translate into success in her most important events.
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Agreed.
I think it's obvious that Gracie and Ashley are ahead of the pack (nationally)...but they aren't so far out in front that they are untouchable or can afford to slack off. Both have their strengths but both have weaknesses as well. I think they are a solid 1-2 punch for the the US women right now, but I don't think that their spots are etched in stone. We've gone two whole quads w/o a US woman on a world podium. If that's going to change this quad, we need some killers to emerge. As of now, I don't see any. The US has talent but we need talent and killer instinct...someone who won't shy away when the opportunity to win is there, but will run full-tilt toward it, knocking everyone out of their way. To me, neither Gracie nor Ashley are that kind of competitor.
There is some talent coming up in the US; not a ton of talent, but it's enough. Polina obviously, but I think Amber Glenn could possibly make a splash at nationals this year, and down the line (assuming everything goes okay w/ puberty) Karen Chen could be a contender.
Gracie and Ashley are at the top for now, but I agree with Slider...they definitely need to glance at that rear view mirror.
Wait, isn't this the way US women have been since Kwan/Cohen left? No one has any staying power. In fact I'd say Wagner has probably had the most consistent (past 2 yrs) results of any of the women since. But every else (and Wagner herself beforehand) is all over the place. Jury will be out on Gold and Edmunds this season, but everyone else has popped up and then back down again TBH...
So of course Wagner and Gold should watch their backs. And when they get replaced, the replacement skater(s) will need to watch their backs, etc...
So of course Wagner and Gold should watch their backs. And when they get replaced, the replacement skater(s) will need to watch their backs, etc...
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Exactly. Doesn't seem like anyone has that killer instinct. Gracie doesn't have it...maybe she'll develop it but IMO it's something you're born with. I thought Ashley had it but the way she's imploded at nationals the last two years kinda gives me doubt. Polina has a little spark of it...we'll have to see if that lasts now that there will be some pressure on her this season.
We need skaters like the Russians: Julia, Elena, Anna and yes, even Adelina. All of those girls go balls-to-the-wall whenever they step out on the ice regardless of who they're skating against. It seems like the US skaters tense up, almost like they're scared to succeed b/c then that'd mean they'd be expected to. Where are the killers? We need killers!!
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Even though I root for her, I don't disagree with your criticisms about mirai. Just wanted to point though that she DID make a splash and impressed folks at 2010 world's - placing first in SP, and that year at the Olympics she was 4th. It's this very reason why it's such almost a waste, because she clearly had potential to be great but never lived up to it. She's not a mediocre natural skater by any means, just never fully developed the way people had hoped...
Exactly. Doesn't seem like anyone has that killer instinct. Gracie doesn't have it...maybe she'll develop it but IMO it's something you're born with. I thought Ashley had it but the way she's imploded at nationals the last two years kinda gives me doubt. Polina has a little spark of it...we'll have to see if that lasts now that there will be some pressure on her this season.
We need skaters like the Russians: Julia, Elena, Anna and yes, even Adelina. All of those girls go balls-to-the-wall whenever they step out on the ice regardless of who they're skating against. It seems like the US skaters tense up, almost like they're scared to succeed b/c then that'd mean they'd be expected to. Where are the killers? We need killers!!
Those Russian girls compete against each other day after day, week after week, month after month, all year long in the Russian cup series just to have a chance to get to JGP/GP/Russian Nationals/Euros/Worlds. They compete, they accumulate points, the highest points get the plum assignments. It's cutthroat competition all the way. It's what they HAVE to do to get where they want to go, and it's what they are accustomed to. Those who can't handle the pressure fall by the wayside.
What the Russian ladies have to go through makes Regionals and Sectionals in the US look like a tea party.
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I've been involved in this type of discussion and it seems most agree that it's because the Russian Schools are more centralized where as the American system is massive and overly spread out. Obviously this is a simplified response but I feel it cuts right to the chase.
I mean it's either Moscow or St Petersburg. Or maybe is it that we need a Tarasova?
Are there any US rinks that can come close in competitiveness to Sambo or CSKA where Anna P,Yulia,Medvedeva,Sakhanovich, are all present and aware of what the others are up to? Broadmoor comes to mind but isn't that mostly the top Men?
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I think the issue is that she has been riding on the coat tails of "potential" for too long. That seems to be most people's complaint. I think she is a beautiful skater in many ways but with the rising Polina and others on the verge of breakout....she needs to not have potential and instead just plain simple results. I think this is a polite way to say it. YMMV.
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Yeah I like mirai and I always root for the underdog but I'm not holding my breath. Maybe in the last two seasons when it was ashley and that was pretty much it (alissa would pop in here and there but no consistency whatsoever) but now she has to deal with Polina and amber and Karen Chen and even to a lesser degree Cesario Hicks and Cain
Too soon to know now, though.
I say the pressure won't REALLY be on her unless she ever becomes the #1 US skater. Like the position Gold finds herself in now. Edmunds is still very much ascending the ladder...
We do need fearlessness in our skaters but that alone won't cut it these days. Consistent, world-class talent is what it'll take and the US has lacked that for how long now...close to a decade?
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We need skaters like the Russians: Julia, Elena, Anna and yes, even Adelina. All of those girls go balls-to-the-wall whenever they step out on the ice regardless of who they're skating against. It seems like the US skaters tense up, almost like they're scared to succeed b/c then that'd mean they'd be expected to. Where are the killers? We need killers!!
Amen and right on!
I also think that chuckm and sam-skwantch made very good points re: competition & centralization. My sense is that the Russians are their own toughest competitors. They must be very much aware of each other's strengths and weaknesses and know they can't afford to slack off -- if they do, someone will be ready and waiting to step right up. There's always someone around to push them, kind of like Davis/White and Virtue/Moir as training partners. Compared to that, the Americans are training in a vacuum, to some extent. If you don't have anyone to goose you occasionally, it's all too easy to start coasting.
Re: being scared to succeed, I find myself wondering whether the US women are still getting some kind of message (who knows from where) that being competitive and having the ability to tap into a killer instinct is "unladylike." I was raised with "ladylike" standards of behavior and genuinely value them but dammit, as long as you're not whacking someone's knee (god forbid!) or cheating or otherwise doing something nasty to undermine your competitors, there comes a time when being a lady is a lot less important than that balls-to-the-wall attitude.
Just speculating here & sorry for ranting a bit -- I've learned the hard way that sometimes the whole ladylike thing is vastly overrated. Now raising a glass to the killer instinct!
