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Thread: Premier League for skaters?

  1. #1
    Say no to horrendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Premier League format for World Championship?

    I don't know if we have ever had this talk before, but apparently I have this idea about how to reward consistency in a more legitimate way.

    We are still crying over skaters' consistency. Like sometimes consistent skaters don't get enough credit (why Elena Radionova's scores drop even though she's consistent), but sometimes they get too much credit (why some skaters get such huge PCS even though the choreography isn't good, just because they're consistent). Sometimes skaters don't compete the whole season, but only come for big events like Europe and WC, and still get huge credit because they're champions/legends... Do you feel giving them huge PCS seems fair to other skaters who have compete the whole season? Or sometimes skaters do poorly in almost every competition, but only peak at WC and still got huge score and medal at WC, what about those who have been trying so hard in the GPs and senior B series?

    Is there any way to reward consistency BUT Not by GOE and PCS inflation?

    Just image we had a more transparent and consistent scoring system, we knew all the judges and clear guidelines and there were nothing outrageous in this system. Okay this sounds surreal but just assume that we were having an objective scoring system and not many controversies. Just image it happened and we were not puzzled by PCS and GOE okay.

    So what about this, we apply a scoring format like Premier League for the whole season. Each medal each competition skaters get will be converted into points. Medals in senior B also counts, but less point than senior A. In a way, it's like World Standing but these points will eventually get counted as Medals at World Championship.

    For example, what if

    - Gold at Senior B = 2 points, silver 1 points, bronze 0.5 point
    - Gold at Senior A GP = 5 points, silver 4 points, bronze 3 points
    - Gold at GPF= 7 points, silver 6 points, bronze 5 points
    - Gold at Euro/4CC = 9 points, silver 8 points, bronze 7 points

    Then at WC we might have different way to score:
    - Win the SP at WC = 8 points, second 6 points, third 4 points.
    - Win the LP at WC = 12 points, second 10 points, third 8 points.

    All these scores will be used to determine the final standings at World Championship. So one who gathers the highest score throughout the season will be world champion. The same applies for podium and final standing overall.

    I think the World Champion should be someone who is consistent throughout the season relatively. For example I think this season the most consistent skaters of the season won (Liza, Javi, P/C and D/R are all relatively consistent) and I think this is very good for the sport. But it's not like we always have this situation happen every year. Sometimes the one who won isn't consistent at all and might have many disasters over the season suddenly get the best result overall. I think these inconsistent but brilliant skaters should get rewards, but not the highest rewards.

    So skaters who have been consistent throughout the season might still get rewards, skaters who have competed the whole season in both senior B and A also get rewards, and maybe this format will encourage skaters to join more competitions as possible?

    What do you think? It's just an idea and just an example I can think of at the moment, not the exact format that could be useful in reality. But I think it's interesting format to discuss.
    Last edited by Meoima; 05-29-2015 at 03:05 AM.

  2. #2
    Floating in Blue sabinfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    We are still crying over skaters' consistency.
    Who is still crying over this?


    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    Elena and Liza get such huge PCS even though the choreography isn't good...
    I think Elena's and Liza's choreography is fine, and at least "good".

    A little confused by this topic. Aren't some of the highest PCS scores this season awarded to the most inconsistent skaters? (i.e. Ashley Wagner, Gracie Gold, Jeremy Abbott, Yuzuru Hanyu, etc)...

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    Say no to horrendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabinfire View Post
    Who is still crying over this?
    Isn't consistency always the issue we are talking about?

    Quote Originally Posted by sabinfire
    I think Elena's and Liza's choreography is fine, and at least "good".
    I think Elena's and Liza's choreography as so and so. At least if you compare their choreography to Satoko and Ashley LP.
    You know I like Elena and Liza more. So of course I root for them more than other ladies.
    But objectively, do I think their programs as masterpiece? No.
    Should they get more PCS at least in choreography than Satoko and Ashley? Personally I don't think so. But they are consistent, should they get reward for their consistency? YES. But not in PCS. That's my point.

    In short, I want to see they reward consistency in a different way, not in PCS.

    Quote Originally Posted by sabinfire
    A little confused by this topic. Aren't some of the highest PCS scores this season awarded to the most inconsistent skaters? (i.e. Ashley Wagner, Gracie Gold, Jeremy Abbott, Yuzuru Hanyu, etc)...
    You didn't read this part???
    Quote Originally Posted by meoima
    Just image we had a more transparent and consistent scoring system, we knew all the judges and clear guidelines and there were nothing outrageous in this system. Okay this sounds surreal but just assume that we were having an objective scoring system and not many controversies. Just image it happened and we were not puzzled by PCS and GOE okay.
    Anyways IMO Hanyu is not inconsistent. For 5 years of his senior years he often placed from 4 to 1st. That is not inconsistent at all, given how inconsistent men field has always been. Javi this season was very consistent, too.
    Last edited by Meoima; 05-29-2015 at 02:24 AM.

  4. #4
    Floating in Blue sabinfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    I think Elena's and Liza's choreography = average. At least if you compare their choreography to Satoko and Ashley LP.
    I don't care for either of those two in choreography, so we will need to disagree on that one. Sadly, even technically I can't get behind them there, either.


    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    You didn't read this part???
    You're assuming I have the same opinion that you do. I actually had few issues with the TES/PCS scores this season (even when Yuzu fell 5 times in one program and still received higher PCS than anyone else).

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    Say no to horrendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabinfire View Post
    I don't care for either of those two in choreography, so we will need to disagree on that one. Sadly, even technically I can't get behind them there, either.
    You're assuming I have the same opinion that you do.
    My point is not about whose choreography is better. It's just some example (like why skater A don't get good PCS for their choreography etc).

    My point is, should we reward consistency in a different way? And just image we have no issue about the PCS whatsoever. Because this is not about any particular skaters. This is about rewarding consistency.

    Now why is that Elena Radionova score didn't get higher along with the season? I find it puzzling. She has been consistent, should she get more rewards for being so amazingly consistent? I think yes. But what to reward?
    Liza, on the other hand, get rewards for her consistency and her difficulty. Note that I have no problem with Liza. This season it's ideal for the final standing because the most consistent skaters won.

    BUT just image,

    Elena didn't do anything throughout the season, and only appeared at WC, and skated really well to place 1st in SP and LP.
    Liza on the other hand, skated well throughout the season, but had a terrible flu at WC, she still skated well, but not enough to place 1st in SP or LP.

    Who should get more rewards? In this case I think Liza should get more rewards.

    What do you think?
    Last edited by Meoima; 05-29-2015 at 03:04 AM.

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    Floating in Blue sabinfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    BUT just image,

    Elena didn't do anything throughout the season, and only appeared at WC, and skated really well to place 1st in SP and LP.
    Liza on the other hand, skated well throughout the season, but had a terrible flu at WC, she still skated well, but not enough to place 1st in SP or LP.

    Who should get more rewards? In this case I think Liza should get more rewards.

    What do you think?
    Sadly, I am more confused than ever.

    Didn't Elena have the flu? And Liza placed 1st in the SP and LP?

    Well, yes, I would agree that Liza would get more rewards in any event.

  7. #7
    Say no to horrendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sabinfire View Post
    Sadly, I am more confused than ever.
    Didn't Elena have the flu? And Liza placed 1st in the SP and LP?
    Well, yes, I would agree that Liza would get more rewards in any event.
    I said "image", so I didn't say that was what happened. It's a hypothesis! It's a big series of What if.

    Sorry English is not my native langue so it's not easy to illustrate my points.

    So in a dream scenario, in which the most consistent skaters of this season suddenly got ill, and still did quite well but not on her usual level, should she lose her championship title to some skater who suddenly skated good but previously had always been inconsistent (or worst, didn't do any events throughout the season)??

    In premier league, it's like this: Chelsea (or any team that has become champion), for example, don't always win, they lose now and then, but overall they become champion because they have won the most amount of matches.

    My idea is that, could we apply that format to FS?
    Last edited by Meoima; 05-29-2015 at 03:03 AM.

  8. #8
    Floating in Blue sabinfire's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    So in a dream scenario, in which the most consistent skaters of this season suddenly got ill, and still did quite well but not on her usual level, should she lose her championship title to some skater who suddenly skated good but previously had always been inconsistent (or worst, didn't do any events throughout the season)??
    Ahh, okay, I think I get it now.

    I think the results of any individual competition should be based solely on the performance at that particular competition, in any sport. If athletes cannot rise to the occasion when it matters most, they do not deserve to win simply because they had a few other minor victories in other previous competitions.

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    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Consistency should have nothing whatsoever to do with the scoring or result of a competition. The only thing that matters is exactly what you do on the day of competition.

    I find it strange that you complain about consistency not being rewarded (in terms of a skater who placed well throughout the season not being properly judged), because that has a MASSIVE impact on the scores, much more than it should. So many of the judges are lemmings and hold people up at a given competition based upon their recent results (amongst other things that should not factor).

    If you're advocating a better reward for people who skate in a good amount of competitions and show consistency through the whole season, sure, that would great. But where would the money come from?
    Last edited by Blades of Passion; 05-29-2015 at 03:23 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sabinfire View Post
    Ahh, okay, I think I get it now.
    I think the results of any individual competition should be based solely on the performance at that particular competition, in any sport. If athletes cannot rise to the occasion when it matters most, they do not deserve to win simply because they had a few other minor victories in other previous competitions.
    Do you think it's really fair? For example some skaters never care to come to GPs, just go out without injuries, and get the medal?

    I mean in Olympic I can the idea of "skater of the night/performance of the night" etc. So I can get why the best skater don't always win in the Olympic (Kwan ) but for World Championship, we encourage skater to go from competition to competition, to suffer jet lag, adjust to new environment rapidly etc... There must be some way to rewards all of these effort IMO.

    I think World Champion of the year should be someone who have raise to the occasions many times during the season, not just one time. So in this season it's very fair to me that all champions are those who have been the most consistent. But what if next season it's different?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Consistency should have nothing whatsoever to do with the scoring or result of a competition. The only thing that matters is exactly what you do on the day of competition.
    Now, that's also my point. BUT this is exactly why I want better reward for consistency:

    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    I find it strange that you complain about consistency not being rewarded (in terms of a skater placing well throughout the season), because that has a MASSIVE impact on the scores, much more than it should. So many of the judges are lemmings and hold people up at a given competition based upon their recent results (amongst other things that should not factor).
    Exactly because of that I hope they reward consistency in a different way. Not by holding up consistent skaters PCS, and even TES too. I want something more transparent.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    If you're advocating a better reward for people who skate in a good amount of competitions and show consistency through the whole season, sure, that would great. But where would the money come from?
    Well, dreams are free you know.
    Last edited by Meoima; 05-29-2015 at 03:26 AM.

  11. #11
    Custom Title daphenaxa's Avatar
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    I absolutely disagree in replacing the World Championship with a premier league format.
    That is what is interesting about WC or EC etc. is that technically everyone has a chance! You have to skate you best the d day.
    Besides this system wouldn't change anything regarding the problem in judging PCS.

    However if we want to reward consistent skaters throughout the year, I am ok with adding this format. For example like in ski, where you have the World Championship which is one competition (where you have world champion, silver medalist and bronze medalist) and then the World Cup which takes into account all competitions in the year and where you have a winner, 2nd and 3rd of the world cup.

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    Say no to horrendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    I think a premier league format might encourage skaters to participate in competitions more often, like Senior B for example.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Consistency should have nothing whatsoever to do with the scoring or result of a competition. The only thing that matters is exactly what you do on the day of competition.

    I find it strange that you complain about consistency not being rewarded (in terms of a skater who placed well throughout the season not being properly judged), because that has a MASSIVE impact on the scores, much more than it should. So many of the judges are lemmings and hold people up at a given competition based upon their recent results (amongst other things that should not factor).

    If you're advocating a better reward for people who skate in a good amount of competitions and show consistency through the whole season, sure, that would great. But where would the money come from?
    I fully agree.
    Judges are only human, but they should try to judge each performances as objective as possible, without thinking about past performances.

    Regarding the premier league: it could be done rather easily, they're already points for each competition. We know that f.e. Elizaveta T. would have won such a "cup" this season. Winning it would have to be attractive, meaning it would have to bring money and reputation. There are sports like f.e. skiing where the world cup is something, skiers are very eager to win it.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    I think a premier league format might encourage skaters to participate in competitions more often, like Senior B for example.
    IIRC the ISU tried something like this a few years ago by maintaining a season ranking separate from the worlds standings, etc., and then giving a cash prize at the end (I think it was $50,000?) The express purpose was to encourage skaters to participate in B events and also in Four Continents, which the top skaters usually skipped. I believe that they discontinued the program because they ran out of money.

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    Say no to horrendous costumes Meoima's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    IIRC the ISU tried something like this a few years ago by maintaining a season ranking separate from the worlds standings, etc., and then giving a cash prize at the end (I think it was $50,000?) The express purpose was to encourage skaters to participate in B events and also in Four Continents, which the top skaters usually skipped. I believe that they discontinued the program because they ran out of money.
    Thank you for the info. So everything comes down to money issue. well what can we expect.

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