What's next for Patrick Chan?

Meoima said:

Well, it might be harder for him since Hanyu is practicing 4 loop, even 4 axel... and so do other youngsters. Of course they are still inconsistent but at this rate, I think PChan should have a new quad before Hanyu perfect his 4S and 4 loop next season.
He'd better come back right away next season. Because if the skips a season, the judges might not give him a monstrous PCS anymore.

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I think there is possiblity that he will come back for nationals, because it is almost 100 % that he will WIN it. I think he will continue after that if he will be able to fight for the wins with Hanyu but if not I can't see him competiting since I am finding him as a person that can't accept loosing

People fail to realize that Chan posted a score of 295.27 at TEB just 5 months ago. Although I suppose people wrote him off after 2013 Worlds saying he was diminishing. Some were even so foolish to predict he would end up 3rd or 4th in Sochi.

If he came back, he just needs to wag his pinky and he'll get GP wins (or silvers) and qualify for the GPF. His overall quality of skating is that good. The other guys are catching up, but nobody has caught up to his level of skating... not even Hanyu.

As for his axel consistency, save for Sochi, he landed 5/8 clean triple axels last season, which for him is actually good, and for the rest of the field is about par for the course (Hanyu being the exception who only missed 1 axel last season). His quad was extremely consistent... something like 12/15 landed cleanly or something like that.

Hanyu still has yet to gain consistency with his 4S. Until that happens, Chan totally has a shot. And people forget that Hanyu/Fernandez are prone to errors themselves. If those guys were skating clean programs, competition after competition, then Chan might consider hanging up his skates, but until that happens I doubt any of the people hating on Chan would actually bet money against him if he's competing against Machida or Fernandez. The only one who can still legitimately challenge Chan overall is Hanyu.

@Meoima
I think getting a new quad is all he can do. I hold very low hopes for his axel. I mean:
2 Olympics - 5 programs - 6 triple axels attempts - one landed cleanly

Coupled with his troubles on the double axel, he's either got terrible technique for forward take-offs or is just physically unsuited for axel jumps. It's fixable, but it'll be difficult this late in his career. At the same time, though, I dunno if he'll be able to learn a new quad if he can't even get the axel down.

If I were Patrick, I wouldn't worry too much about Hanyu's 4Lo or potential 4A unless he lands them in competition. There are people before Hanyu who have tried those jumps, and stopped due to injury/affecting other areas of training/realizing they didn't need it and was better off skating a clean program. It's one thing to land a jump; it's another to land it, then keep skating a respectable program for four and a half minutes.

Also, let's face it, if Hanyu gets a reliable 4A, Patrick (and everyone else) are toast no matter what they do.

Sandpiper said:

Also, let's face it, if Hanyu gets a reliable 4A, Patrick (and everyone else) are toast no matter what they do.

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That would be amazing if he could get one. If he did get a consistent 4A (which is pretty impossible... it's amazing how consistent his 3A is), the rest of the guys might as well hang their skates up.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

That would be amazing if he could get one. If he did get a consistent 4A (which is pretty impossible... it's amazing how consistent his 3A is), the rest of the guys might as well hang their skates up.

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Well I am sure he will try in future 4A in competition. He is getting physically stronger, so I think he may do it somewhere in future ( he already landed it with a little rotation missing as I had read somewhere on forum here ). I think axel is the easiest jump for him.. lol. He is starting warm-up from 3A

I don't think Hanyu's gonna get a consistent 4A. He'll be lucky if he can land it perfectly (ever), phenomenal if he can land it in competition even once (even if the rest of his program suffers badly), and will probably need testing to see if he's human if he gets it consistent. Hence why I don't think Patrick should worry about this. That'll just cause him to psyche himself out and Hanyu will have won without trying.

Meoima said:

Personally I think the judges gave Dai a low PCS was partly because of his music choice. I mean the music of his long program was not classical like PChan or dramatically catchy like Hanyu. Frankly, I love Dai very much, and I think he would have won but the music of that program was kinda off my taste. I guess the judges thought so, too.

As for PChan, I think people are too harsh on him. Aside from not good with his mouth, he is a decent guy and an excellent skater. A clean PChan still has chances for lots of gold out there. The field is so much boring without a strong skater like him. I hope he will go back and be clean.

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Then the judges don't deserve to be called judges, if it did. When I saw that performance, I welled up it was so good. The commentators said 'spine tingling' and I agree. I can't say whether technically Chan deserved to win. I don't know enough. But the music of Takahashi should not have influenced the decision, I hope. He danced like an inspired thing to it, imo. Something not being their taste, I hope, wouldn't influence them when someone skates so well to the piece. It suited his style so well too! And it stood out; I like to see different choices.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

LOL @ the haterade in this thread.

As much as haters want to whine that his wins were controversial, these same people are the ones who don't even consider him artistically on another level than most of the field. They just plain hate him.

Oh well. The records will always state that he has 3 World titles, no matter how controversial haters like to say it is. That will go with a slew of GPF wins, GP wins, Canadian titles, 2 Olympic silvers, and general recognition by the majority of the skating community as one of the best skaters ever. Any other opinion is pure haterade, and should immediately be discounted as trying to diminish an otherwise wonderful skater........yack yack Chan worship, waaaah waaah haters haters.........

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This is all so rich coming from you given that the amount of hateorarde you open on Plushenko on a daily basis basically quintruples any of the so called Chan "haters" in this thread put together. That is despite that both Plushenko's achievements, and legacy in the sport completely drawrf Chan's. Practice what you preach for once, and someone might actually take you seriously for a change.

And it is not just "haters" who deem him to have generally been a held up skater in his career with a number of controversial wins. Some of his biggest fans and the Canadian media even recognize this times in the past. Notice none of his haters have said he is held up this year, either when he wins and when he hasnt, as for the first time he is actually getting scores in line with his performance and rest of the field. Had it been that way all along there wouldnt have been a problem for anyone.

And yes any skating fan will remember the circumstances of a few of his controversial wins and the general controversy around how he was scored from 2011-2013. Just like every skating fan still remembers Kerrigan vs Baiul and practically every detail about the performances today.

Many of the posters who have suggested they think he will retire are fans of his, and have rooted for him many times in the last few years. They have given valid reasons why they think this will be the case, which you are free to agree or disagree with, but are not without merit. Of course in your warped sense of reality this is automatically hating.

Sandpiper said:

I don't think Hanyu's gonna get a consistent 4A. He'll be lucky if he can land it perfectly (ever), phenomenal if he can land it in competition even once (even if the rest of his program suffers badly), and will probably need testing to see if he's human if he gets it consistent. Hence why I don't think Patrick should worry about this. That'll just cause him to psyche himself out and Hanyu will have won without trying.

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Lol, personally I think 4A is impossible for any skater. Even Kulik gave up, Yagudin also gave up, they all had world class 3A.:disapp:

However, if Hanyu ever lands 4A successfully with consistence, I agree with you that we need to test if he is truly human or alien. He said he still lack 1/4 rotation on the 4A.

Anyways, Let's forget PChan's problem for a while, I am sure he will come back. Let's enjoy his latest performance at SOI: http://youtu.be/kJ5MiaDx03A

He looks happy here in the clip. bravo PChan.

TheGrandSophy said:

Then the judges don't deserve to be called judges, if it did. When I saw that performance, I welled up it was so good. The commentators said 'spine tingling' and I agree. I can't say whether technically Chan deserved to win. I don't know enough. But the music of Takahashi should not have influenced the decision, I hope. He danced like an inspired thing to it, imo. Something not being their taste, I hope, wouldn't influence them when someone skates so well to the piece. It suited his style so well too! And it stood out; I like to see different choices.

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I like Dai's long program in 2012 very much. But I think the choice if his music was not judge-friendly. It's just my guess because I couldn't understand why they gave him only 85 PCS for that performance. I mean it's so weird, it's like the judges clearly were not impressed his free skate while the audience were opposite.

The judges were ready to dump Takahashi out the door in 2012 like they've been trying to dump Joubert for ages. Ultimately, though, Takahashi's own injuries and jump inconsistency did him in (and the rules. The rules that give him nearly nothing for his double downgrades but give Hanyu 6.5 for splatting on the salchow 'cause he rotated it). But if it were due to the music choice... that's not any better! They're handing medals out to skaters, not composers.

pangtongfan said:

This is all so rich coming from you given that the amount of hateorarde you open on Plushenko on a daily basis basically quintruples any of the so called Chan "haters" in this thread put together. That is despite that both Plushenko's achievements, and legacy in the sport completely drawrf Chan's. Practice what you preach for once, and someone might actually take you seriously for a change.

And it is not just "haters" who deem him to have generally been a held up skater in his career with a number of controversial wins. Some of his biggest fans and the Canadian media even recognize this times in the past. Notice none of his haters have said he is held up this year, either when he wins and when he hasnt, as for the first time he is actually getting scores in line with his performance and rest of the field. Had it been that way all along there wouldnt have been a problem for anyone.

And yes any skating fan will remember the circumstances of a few of his controversial wins and the general controversy around how he was scored from 2011-2013. Just like every skating fan still remembers Kerrigan vs Baiul and practically every detail about the performances today.

Many of the posters who have suggested they think he will retire are fans of his, and have rooted for him many times in the last few years. They have given valid reasons why they think this will be the case, which you are free to agree or disagree with, but are not without merit. Of course in your warped sense of reality this is automatically hating.

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Haha, okay, keep telling yourself this. You're the one who constantly parrots Chan's 5+ fall cushion and other unsubstantiated bs like that. I've said positive things about Plushenko, but condemned his foul statements (as I have with Chan) as well as given my opinion of his skating. You constantly bash Chan -- even in threads that you start that seem to be masquerading as threads about skaters other than Chan. You assert Chan doesn't have an artistic bone in his body in spite of his program generating strong PCS marks and most of the skating community agreeing with his artistic superiority over the field. That's fine. I also don't think Plushenko is as artistically sound as the marks he's been given and thing if he skates clean he's automatically given high/perfect presentation marks, and then you get BS like Russian Nationals where he gets 95 PCS.

There was no "general controversy" in how he was scored from 2011-2013 other than from those critics (i.e. haters) who simply refused to acknowledge how superior a skater he was to the rest of the field. Some people just "didn't see it" and that's fine. But it makes you look like hilarious fools whenever you continue to whine how other skaters weren't given wins. Chan has had like 3 controversial wins in his entire career. He got at least one indisputable World title fair and square, with the 3rd highest total ever, and he has the highest total score. THAT is what people remember. You asserted that he was deteriorating/done after 2013 Worlds, and then he skated perfectly at TEB and shut you and the rest of you sour haters up. Remember how you predicted he would end up 4th at the Olympics? :sarcasm:

Also, nobody cares or remembers Kerrigan/Baiul. They just remember Baiul won and Kerrigan came 2nd in spite of the Harding/Kerrigan scandal. Although I suppose you are so, so, so, so much older than me, so perhaps you would remember something two decades ago in such great detail.

Chan will always be introduced as 3-time World champion, and 2-time Olympic silver medalist, and 7-time National Champion, and even though you'll be the one with the sour look on your face sitting in the crowd with arms folded refusing to clap, the audience will be on their feet for him until the day he steps off the ice, whether you like it or not. You'll be still whining about Chan's controversial wins while the applause for him is drowning you out. And no insults or comments from you - some anonymous, insignificant, petty poster who isn't even on his radar - will ever bring him down. You can cry controversy and make radical claims that it's what people will remember about Chan, but that's what YOU will remember him as.... Chan's got the hardware.

No asterisks on his ISU bio or wikipedia page, and a big fat World record performance that beats any SP+LP competition ever skated by any male skater thus far. Although, I guess Sandy Lenz would probably have gotten a higher score were she skating today.

Sandpiper said:

The judges were ready to dump Takahashi out the door in 2012 like they've been trying to dump Joubert for ages. Ultimately, though, Takahashi's own injuries and jump inconsistency did him in (and the rules. The rules that give him nearly nothing for his double downgrades but give Hanyu 6.5 for splatting on the salchow 'cause he rotated it). But if it were due to the music choice... that's not any better! They're handing medals out to skaters, not composers.

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Why should they "dump" Dai in 2012? He was still the medal contender that year.
Same thing happen to Japanese ladies this years, their PCS were so low I couldn't understand why.
I mean JFS is a strong fed, why didn't they do anything for Dai and Mao?

Meoima said:

Why should they "dump" Dai in 2012? He was still the medal contender that year.
Same thing happen to Japanese ladies this years, their PCS were so low I couldn't understand why.
I mean JFS is a strong fed, why didn't they do anything for Dai and Mao?

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Uh, I'd say they did. They gave Mao a win over Suzuki at NHK, and let Dai compete in Sochi in spite of placing 5th at Nationals.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:

Uh, I'd say they did. They gave Mao a win over Suzuki at NHK, and let Dai compete in Sochi in spite of placing 5th at Nationals.

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Yeah, I know. But I mean international competitions. Like why with all the politicking JFS could have done, Mao still got so much downgrades even on her home ice. And Sochi, she could have won the free skate, obviously, and place 5th overall, instead of 6th. JFS received lots of sponsors thanks to Mao, yet I don't see that they help her that much internationally.

Meoima said:

Why should they "dump" Dai in 2012? He was still the medal contender that year.
Same thing happen to Japanese ladies this years, their PCS were so low I couldn't understand why.
I mean JFS is a strong fed, why didn't they do anything for Dai and Mao?

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I dunno, once you get to certain age the judges seem to want to dump you... Maybe they (judges, Japan Fed.) decided Dai was on his way out and it's time to start propping up Hanyu. The plan did end with an OGM.

EDIT: No point politicking for Dai and Mao in 2012 and Sochi. Dai got second overall, which he deserved (imo) even if the marks were too low. Mao would've been out of a medal either way so it's not worth bothering with.

Sandpiper said:

I dunno, once you get to certain age the judges seem to want to dump you... Maybe they (judges, Japan Fed.) decided Dai was on his way out and it's time to start propping up Hanyu. The plan did end with an OGM.

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It still doesn't explain Mao's case in Sochi and Saitama.

As for Hanyu, no one expected him to medal at worlds 2012. It was his senior debut so I don't think JFS would pop him up that much. He got the bronze purely based on the wow factor. Many people attended men event that day in Nice said they had never seen something so raw like that before. Hanyu was building an excellent momentum with his free skate that year, so I think it's deserving. R&J 1 was a complete package for him, and the judges were impressed, it's understandable.

And it's not true to say that JFS had dumped Dai at that time, remember Dai won the GPF at Sochi next year, in which PChan was placed 3rd? So I am just thinking, either JFS does not have that much influence, or the judges simply were not impressed by Dai's free skate at worlds 2012. Or maybe they were told to underscore him intentionally.

@Meoima
No, no, don't take my post too seriously. I definitely don't think JFS dumped Dai at that point. They even sent him off to Sochi (so glad they did even if he didn't get a medal. He's a fan of Yags and Plush and it's fitting he could end his career skating in Russia). I was just wondering if they might've have limited resources and now split some of it with Hanyu. I didn't think about the "wow" factor of seeing Hanyu break out for the first time. That probably explains things. I'm being too cynical. And yeah, he won GPF though iirc, no one skated very well there (including Dai himself).

My point stands though: no point in politicking for Dai or Mao. Dai's ultimate standing was correct even if his marks weren't. Mao was out of medal contention anyway (though it would've been cool to see her break Yuna's Vancouver record--could she, scored correctly?)

Sandpiper said:

My point stands though: no point in politicking for Dai or Mao. Dai's ultimate standing was correct even if his marks weren't. Mao was out of medal contention anyway (though it would've been cool to see her break Yuna's Vancouver record--could she, scored correctly?)

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If Mao was scored correctly at Sochi, she would definitely break that record for sure. I am not a fan of ladies skater, but she deserves that. I think the judges underscored her so Adelina's win would look more impressive, huh?

Personally, I think JFS gave Dai lots of chances so he can go to Sochi, even though he was injured. I am just thinking, JFS does not have much influence like Russian, Canada and USA's feds.

And it's not only Sochi, at Saitama it's so clearly that judges were so strict on Japanese ladies. Even JFS couldn't help their skaters so much.

Meoima said:

Yeah, I know. But I mean international competitions. Like why with all the politicking JFS could have done, Mao still got so much downgrades even on her home ice. And Sochi, she could have won the free skate, obviously, and place 5th overall, instead of 6th. JFS received lots of sponsors thanks to Mao, yet I don't see that they help her that much internationally.

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I don't think Mao deserved to win the FS. She should have been behind Kim. She did however deserved to beat Sotnikova in the FS. Sometimes politicking isn't enough to get a tech panel to overlook your downgrades and URs, if you actually commit them. Murakami received 2 URs in her SP and 6 URs in her LP on home ice, so no matter how much politicking JSF could have done, the skater still has to skate at the end of the day. Sotnikova would not have won Sochi if she hadn't turned out such a good program... if she fell or doubled a jump, the panel would have been practically forced to put Kim ahead of her (and maybe Kostner too). As much as I'm sure USFSA has politicked for Gracie Gold (as evidenced by her monstrously higher PCS in her individual FS with a fall versus her clean team FS), she still had to turn out good performances at Worlds to win bronze, and she simply bombed -- she was lucky to even come 5th, given her PCS at Worlds was higher than the PCS she was given in the team FS event in Sochi where she went clean. A federation can help you, but only if you help them.

I also don't think it makes a huge difference if she placed 5th or 6th. I agree she deserved 5th over Lipnitskaia, but it wasn't going to happen -- Lipnitskaia was gifted with personal best PCS scores for that freeskate, more PCS than Mao, which was a joke.