What held back Asada's PCS? | Golden Skate

What held back Asada's PCS?

tokugawaice

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 9, 2014
What could Mao Asada have done better to earn higher PCS (i.e. Kostner, Yuna's level)? Does she need to increase her speed and coverage across the ice? Improve her choreography?
 

alebi

Medalist
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
According to what italian commentators said in the SP it was due to the long preparation before the triple axel. It makes sense in the SP where there're less elements and so this thing is more evident. Honestly I think that there's always a little "prejudice" when judging a skater but if we see the protocols for the free we see Caro is slightly higher in SS (because of her speed) and choreo/interpration because her Bolero is a program that really overtakes any other for originality, not the same delicate or elegant program we usually see for Mao that, ok, are her peculiarities and she's the best in these aspects and a pleasure to watch, but they also limit herself. I wanna see Mao exploring new fields if she decides to go on skating :)
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
According to what italian commentators said in the SP it was due to the long preparation before the triple axel. It makes sense in the SP where there're less elements and so this thing is more evident. Honestly I think that there's always a little "prejudice" when judging a skater but if we see the protocols for the free we see Caro is slightly higher in SS (because of her speed) and choreo/interpration because her Bolero is a program that really overtakes any other for originality, not the same delicate or elegant program we usually see for Mao that, ok, are her peculiarities and she's the best in these aspects and a pleasure to watch, but they also limit herself. I wanna see Mao exploring new fields if she decides to go on skating :)

That's so funny that Mao's jump prep time would be considered longer to Caro's!! Honestly. If that's the best commentators can do to explain the PCS difference, I mean, really. REALLY?? What does that REALLY say?

How about Yuna's excessive no. of back crossovers to prepare for her 3-3? Or Caro's telegraphings? I mean, Caro's telegraphing is much better than few years ago, and what with her now smiling broadly through them, it's less noticable, but honestly, long prep for her triple axel? For crying out loud. :disapp:
 

alebi

Medalist
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
Do you take a comment as if it's the "Bible" ? :) I just reported a thought and then find out another personal explanation instead of just polemicise which is not my style

[edit]

I also have the idea that a long preparation for a single jump is more penalized than for a combo, but you should ask the judges why, not me :think:
 

inskate

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
Honestly, I don't know. In reply to the post above, her jump preparations are shorter than those of many other girls (Caro stalks her 3Lz through the entire rink and it doesn't hurt her PCS). Her speed and ice coverage improved greatly this year - and, what's important, she doesn't need crossovers to generate speed. If you watch her programs in comparison to those of the other ladies, she has very few crossovers in her programs, and is perhaps the only one who can noticeably accelerate while doing very complex footwork (especially visible in her SP step sequence). As far as the COP PCS requirements go, her programs are very well constructed. Quoth Evan: "Mao [Asada] looks insane. She's so good -- strength and jumps, of course, but also the complexity of her programs. I noticed in particular she is never on two feet; she is always on one foot, which is what judges look for in the components. They look for so much: transitions, edges, speed, multi-directional movement; she has all of that stuff."

However, I suspect that the judges might not actualy care about the PCS requirements all that much. It's difficult to GoE-judge all the elements and, at the same time, pay attention to the artistic side of the program. From the judges' perspective, a simpler program with a lot of crossovers, great speed and occasional flirty/sexy pauses might make a greater impact. For example, when you look at the photos, Mao is very expressive, but it's quite difficult to see in the actual programs (when you look from the judges' seats) because she just keeps moving and in some of the nice moments she is facing towards the audience, not the judges.

And then there's pure politics... Let's be honest, if the judges on the panel have their own horse in the race, they ain't gonna give excellent scores to its direct competitor.
 

alebi

Medalist
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
It's difficult to GoE-judge all the elements and, at the same time, pay attention to the artistic side of the program

This is something I always thought too! That's why I think the GOE can be given "more automatically" by the tech panel and let the judges focus on PCS instead of choose a range and use it for every PCS voice
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Carolina does FIVE back crossovers to gain enough speed to do her DOUBLE-axel. The back crossovers take 5 seconds to do, and then from setup to jump, it's 3 seconds. So all in all, that's 8 seconds:

(starts at 2:38) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHLjfETG1eM

Mao does 3-4 forward crossovers and pose to gain speed to do her TRIPLE-axel, all of which takes 4 seconds, and then from setup to jump, it's 3 seconds. So all in all, that's 7 seconds:

(starts at 1:30) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm9F-lSuArQ

Mao's TRIPLE-AXEL jump took less time to do than Carolina's DOUBLE-AXEL jump.

What's was this commentator smoking? Mao's TRIPLE axel taking too long to do, eh? And I just can't believe this stupid comparison I'm making between a jump that's so difficult no other lady skater can do it right now to a mandatory jump. How long would it take for anyone else but Mao to set up for a triple-axel? It would take them an eternity. They could prep and set up for the triple-axel until they're blue in the face and they wouldn't be able to do it.
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
It has been noticed before that many judges just follow the mark they gave for skating skills to mark the other components. Kostner skates faster and can do more with her blades than Asada even though her transitions are fewer and she does more crossovers, so she ends up with more PCS. Kim is faster than Asada so she gets higher PCS. The PCS judging in Sochi was an anomaly as Asada skated early and the Russians were receiving home Olympic inflation. Usually Asada would receive PCS behind Kim/Kostner and ahead of everyone else. So probably just skate faster and don't care so much about transitions.

ETA another thing people who have watched all 3 live sometimes say is that Kostner and Kim stand out more than Asada and this is due in large part to their speed. Judges who watch live notice this.

According to what italian commentators said in the SP it was due to the long preparation before the triple axel. It makes sense in the SP where there're less elements and so this thing is more evident. Honestly I think that there's always a little "prejudice" when judging a skater but if we see the protocols for the free we see Caro is slightly higher in SS (because of her speed) and choreo/interpration because her Bolero is a program that really overtakes any other for originality, not the same delicate or elegant program we usually see for Mao that, ok, are her peculiarities and she's the best in these aspects and a pleasure to watch, but they also limit herself. I wanna see Mao exploring new fields if she decides to go on skating :)
Yes, but Caro did absolutely nothing other than crossovers and a glide going into 2 of her jumping passes in the SP while Mao only did such a thing before her 3A. Also, Mao's Rachmaninoff was hardly the same delicate or elegant style as her Nocturne. It might not stand out as much as Bolero but she is hardly a one-note skater.
 

alebi

Medalist
Joined
Jan 11, 2014
oh my, you really took it as God's word :eek: :eek: :bow:
you can send your report to international judges since you have so much time *respect*
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
I think Kostner's overall speed and ice coverage helped boost her above Asada. I also agree that Mao's preparation into the jumps makes them look less incorporated into the program and are more like moments that you can really tell she's about to do an element. Her transitions have improved but things like her flip are super obvious in their preparation. Her axel she tends to have a slight break from the performance to focus for it... I especially noticed this in her SP where she was going through the motions prior to her 3A probably because she was concentrating on the jump ahead.
 

jkun

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 16, 2013
First, I do think that the beginning of Mao's free skates are a bit bland.. She seems to take a lot of time to do her triple axel(s), her combo. Her gentler stroking doesn't help her I think. I also think that Mao using less speed in her program is because she is uncomfortable with it.

Second, I think Mao has been plagued with the title of being the "technical skater", as was with Midori Ito, when she is in fact, artistic. All the focus on her triple axel by the community lowers her PCS I think. Because God forbid someone be great technically and artistically..
 

David21

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 24, 2004
Carolina does FIVE back crossovers to gain enough speed to do her DOUBLE-axel. The back crossovers take 5 seconds to do, and then from setup to jump, it's 3 seconds. So all in all, that's 8 seconds:

(starts at 2:38) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHLjfETG1eM

Mao does 3-4 forward crossovers and pose to gain speed to do her TRIPLE-axel, all of which takes 4 seconds, and then from setup to jump, it's 3 seconds. So all in all, that's 7 seconds:

(starts at 1:30) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xm9F-lSuArQ

Mao's TRIPLE-AXEL jump took less time to do than Carolina's DOUBLE-AXEL jump.

What's was this commentator smoking? Mao's TRIPLE axel taking too long to do, eh? And I just can't believe this stupid comparison I'm making between a jump that's so difficult no other lady skater can do it right now to a mandatory jump. How long would it take for anyone else but Mao to set up for a triple-axel? It would take them an eternity. They could prep and set up for the triple-axel until they're blue in the face and they wouldn't be able to do it.


I agree the commentator probably got it wrong.
When looking at the entrances into the jumps, however, you can notice Kostner's speed and glide into them on. She doesn't slow down going into them (like Mao sometimes does) and doesn't have a form break e.g. into her double axel (which Mao has with her upper body bend directly before the take-off). On the jump landing, Caro has an extended position and points her toe unlike Mao who oftem loses flow on the landing often with her foot pointing down. Some of these things are technical things but some of them also should be considered in the PCS.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Second, I think Mao has been plagued with the title of being the "technical skater", as was with Midori Ito, when she is in fact, artistic. All the focus on her triple axel by the community lowers her PCS I think. Because God forbid someone be great technically and artistically..

Well, on the subject of the thread, Mao got 72.76 PCS which is a personal best. So I don't see how this is her being held back in a FS where she URed multiple jumps. But as mentioned, she doesn't carry the speed of Kostner or the seamlessness of Kim. I agree that she's been dubbed a "technical skater" more than a complete skater, although she's worked very hard to improve her artistry. Unfortunately, she's only really made those huge artistic strides in the past few seasons which is why Kim has always managed to stay ahead of her artistically and also Kostner when she skates half decently.
 

Big Deal

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
I like Mao a lot, and she was one of the last one's has been able to skate "beautifully".
BUT:
She won her 3rd World title with URs and edge calls. Many of her jumps was "cheated" and a bit "dirty" in her carrier even if the whole performance was classy, but technically far from being correct at the same way than Kostner or Yuna Kim.
That was the reason of her PCS.
 

yyyskate

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 1, 2013
Mao need to skate on "deeper" edges which will help her speed. Mao also needs to work on larger upper-body(whole body) movements, which will help her projection and impression on judges.
The technique character of her jumps. such as preparation to 3A, "pause" in front of her flip and generally unorthodox jumping style ... interrupt the integrity and flow of her programs.
Like mentioned above, when you watch they skate live, Mao's skating is "smaller" than the other 2. And this feeling is not due to Mao has smaller figure (They are about the same), and People with smaller figure can definitely project.
 

drivingmissdaisy

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
For me, I don't think her LP music was the best showcase for her talents. The music is big and intense and she isn't an intense skater. I prefer seeing her skate to balletic music in the LP because her skating is light and airy and is a better match for that, rather than heavy symphonic pieces.
 

CarneAsada

Medalist
Joined
Sep 17, 2011
Well, on the subject of the thread, Mao got 72.76 PCS which is a personal best. So I don't see how this is her being held back in a FS where she URed multiple jumps. But as mentioned, she doesn't carry the speed of Kostner or the seamlessness of Kim. I agree that she's been dubbed a "technical skater" more than a complete skater, although she's worked very hard to improve her artistry. Unfortunately, she's only really made those huge artistic strides in the past few seasons which is why Kim has always managed to stay ahead of her artistically and also Kostner when she skates half decently.
Not really. She improved her expression and projection, but she was always an artist throughout her career. Watch any of her SPs from 2006-07 to 2008-09 which are some of the best SPs of the Vancouver quad.
 

OS

Sedated by Modonium
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Relative perception.

See this is the problem I have with PCS since the very beginning and really think this part of the COP need to be fixed. The numbers themselves are meaningless UNLESS is relative to other competitors during the season, and relative how they did they did on the day, at previous competitions, but it is rarely ever applied correctly due to limited time factor that increases human error. There are too much wiggle room for manipulation. Whenever there are wiggle room, you bet there are certain judges will take maximum advantage of anonymity.

The general impression I had seeing Mao live is she looks great on camera, great at close ups as she hold her positions well with excellent ballet posture, but skated smaller with the likes of Kostner and Kim in direct comparison. I won't go into the criticism i have of her program construct in recent years, where for me the performance is only in the step sequence, the rest about setting jumps up, so of course that affect her PCS. I have always thought Kostner's speed is greatly exaggerated since it is one thing to be capable of great speed during step sequences but if she deliberately slowed down for the rest of the program like in recent years with clever choice of music and simplified movement, what is the point of having great speed? Are points suppose to be rewarded based on what is performed or how the skaters are perceived? It is a particular problem with Patrick and Hanyu's marks in recent years as well. It makes them beyond reach of most upcoming skaters even if they skated perfect. By the way, the cross over argument is misleading, because it comes down to style and the mechanics of speed. There's a reason Yuna's difficult combos have the highest and furthest trajectory and flow when it is done properly. Her 96% success rate (including missed/aborted attempts 88%) up to 2013 season in delivering difficult 3/3s more than support the good practice and in theory, and that is why many young skaters with true lutz follow that approach (Gracie, SoYoun, Nathalie, Anna to name a few etc)

Actually Mao shouldn't have to do anything and she should see her PCS rise up automatically if she continue. Especially Kostner and Kim are no longer in the race. Kostner's PCS has improved during Kim's absence and Mao's technique adjusting slump, and it never came down largely because Kim did not take part during the GP series for 2 years so the judges never had the proper recalibration process. I'd even argue Kostner is needed in Europe as a benchmark for the Russian babies to boost their PCS (if what happened at Sochi is to believed).

At recent WC FS in Japan, it is completely outrageous Carolina is still awarded 10s for composition/choreography and 9.75 for interpretation consider what she brought that day.

I personally think if PCS is to applied accurately, the judges can continue to do what they are doing, but there must be a separate factoring process according to the success/failure rate of program and possibly the entire competition. There're bell curve in some exams, why not in figure skating competitions too? The best performed program deserve better awards regardless of reputation.

May be an algorithm can be devised to take in consideration of things like falls, UR, edge calls, difficulty, ice coverage, complexity etc.
For example - a simplified algorithm can be something like if the skater is only able to fulfill 80% of their program successfully (Something like BV+ 1GOE average.) Then what ever PCS they get from the judges should by factored by 0.8 and that should be their factored PCS. If the skater were able to exceed the average grade execution with 100% of their BV + average of +2 GOEs, then the PCS can get factored by something like 1.02 for example.

This simple algorithm only illustrate the rough 'principle' behind the idea. I am not a mathematician but there should be an ideal algorithm to take in account of difficulty and higher levels as well. It should encourage skating clean and greater presentation and ideally with difficulty (even if it may not result in positive GOEs). Overall the idea is to encourage more audience friendly programs and better presentation due to the bell curve.
 

minze

Medalist
Joined
Dec 22, 2012
honestly, i don't know. In reply to the post above, her jump preparations are shorter than those of many other girls (caro stalks her 3lz through the entire rink and it doesn't hurt her pcs). Her speed and ice coverage improved greatly this year - and, what's important, she doesn't need crossovers to generate speed. If you watch her programs in comparison to those of the other ladies, she has very few crossovers in her programs, and is perhaps the only one who can noticeably accelerate while doing very complex footwork (especially visible in her sp step sequence). As far as the cop pcs requirements go, her programs are very well constructed. Quoth evan: "mao [asada] looks insane. She's so good -- strength and jumps, of course, but also the complexity of her programs. I noticed in particular she is never on two feet; she is always on one foot, which is what judges look for in the components. They look for so much: Transitions, edges, speed, multi-directional movement; she has all of that stuff."

however, i suspect that the judges might not actualy care about the pcs requirements all that much. It's difficult to goe-judge all the elements and, at the same time, pay attention to the artistic side of the program. From the judges' perspective, a simpler program with a lot of crossovers, great speed and occasional flirty/sexy pauses might make a greater impact. For example, when you look at the photos, mao is very expressive, but it's quite difficult to see in the actual programs (when you look from the judges' seats) because she just keeps moving and in some of the nice moments she is facing towards the audience, not the judges.

And then there's pure politics... Let's be honest, if the judges on the panel have their own horse in the race, they ain't gonna give excellent scores to its direct competitor.

this
 
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