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Thread: What held back Asada's PCS?

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by os168 View Post
    The general impression I had seeing Mao live is she looks great on camera, great at close ups as she hold her positions well with excellent ballet posture, but skated smaller with the likes of Kostner and Kim in direct comparison. I won't go into the criticism i have of her program construct in recent years, where for me the performance is only in the step sequence, the rest about setting jumps up, so of course that affect her PCS. I have always thought Kostner's speed is greatly exaggerated since it is one thing to be capable of great speed during step sequences but if she deliberately slowed down for the rest of the program like in recent years with clever choice of music and simplified movement, what is the point of having great speed? Are points suppose to be rewarded based on what is performed or how the skaters are perceived? It is a particular problem with Patrick and Hanyu's marks in recent years as well. It makes them beyond reach of most upcoming skaters even if they skated perfect. By the way, the cross over argument is misleading, because it comes down to style and the mechanics of speed. There's a reason Yuna's difficult combos have the highest and furthest trajectory and flow when it is done properly. Her 96% success rate (including missed/aborted attempts 88%) up to 2013 season in delivering difficult 3/3s more than support the good practice and in theory, and that is why many young skaters with true lutz follow that approach (Gracie, SoYoun, Nathalie, Anna to name a few etc)
    I definitely agree about the comments about people's focus on cross-overs. First of all, its not like skaters who do less cross-overs before jumps are doing anything more interesting or choreographic. They are just gliding most of the time before a set up for a jump if they are not doing cross-overs. Both types of skaters typically have similar transitions before jumps. Also, while more speed gets you greater height and COULD result in a "easier" jump, it is also much more difficult to maintain control over a high speed jump than it is a low speed jump. Not to mention, there are definitely mental blocks to flying into jumps like Yuna and Hanyu seem to do. In the case of Mao, I'm sure she would go into her jumps with higher speed (and use more crossovers) if she could manage to control the jump with that speed. So, mainly, I think speed through a jump, before and after, can be used to measure how well a skater can control the blades and the jump.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by FS_rrb View Post
    The triple axel in the short was obviously rotated enough. From the technical panel point of view, the decision to call it rotated was right. From the judges point of view, some may argue that a jump cheated by almost 1/4 should not receive +2 but, honestly, no skater is receiving negative GOE for a slight underotation unless two-foot landings or other noticeable mistakes are involved. If you check some of the men's triple axels, you'll see how they prerotate the jump as much or more than Mao, and in many case the blade touches the ice again after having rotated 3-3.25 turns in the air. And yet, I'm sure that no technical judge is replaying those axels in super slow-motion to check the rotation because everyone expects men to jump triple axels quite "easily".

    The problem when you scrutinize some particular elements aiming to find mistakes is that you actually end up finding one thing or another. I'm sure this is what happened with Mao's 3-3 in the LP. Okay, the flip was very close, but I'm quite sure the technical panel was checking the rotation in the loop and finally ended up noticing the problem in the flip. And I think that the fact that the technical score decreased in 11 points is an indication of bad judging...how on Earth a so-called technical expert and a bunch of judges who are supposed to be experts too can be so wrong when watching a performance live in front of them? I know that sometimes you need to replay some jumps to check the landings but this was just ridiculous.

    BTW, as for Sochi LP...which jumps were underotated and weren't called? As far as I know she got her 3F-3L and 2A-3T called...
    I thought her triple axels at worlds was very borderline. It was probably right to call for the benefit of the skater. Perhaps the relatively large ice spray (if that's what you call it, usually happens when you don't land fully rotated) made the technical caller make a UR call.

    Also, one of the main reasons Mao did not get a UR call in the SP was because of her excellent landing pose and greatly extended free leg. It gives the perception that the jump was perfect. I noticed that in the free skate, Mao did not have that type of landing stance.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by FS_rrb View Post
    I was not necessarily implying that judges got it wrong after replaying the jumps, I'm only saying that I find it funny that a jump that initially earns 10.3 points like the initial triple axel suddenly becomes < (it was not, in fact) and with negative GOE. Did the technical panel detect something wrong with the jump or did they replay the axel just to see if they found something? I understand that Mao has a tendency to underotate some jumps, but I think it's unfair to check all jumps even when they looked clean. Just an opinion...
    I think the tech panel checked the 3A because of the way the ice behaved when Mao landed. There was a little bit of spray. While I don't think a UR call should have been given, I think it's absurd that the judges gave that jump +1.8 in GOE before the call. Mao does the jump well, but there is nothing exceptional about it -- other than the fact that she can do it. In terms of the GOE bullet points, I don't see how she could fulfill 3 of those bullets to warrant any +2s from the judges. I'd argue that Mao's 3A was better at Vancouver than now and she did not get above +1 GOE there. I think the only other time she got >1.0 GOE was at 4CC 2013 SP. Her 3A at that event was magnificent though to make that Japanese audience happy .

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    I'm only saying what should happen based on the rules of CoP. If you say that other skaters get away with cheated jumps as well then I agree with you but two wrongs don't make a right. Fact is also that Mao gets more calls than other skaters because she tends to underrrotate her jumps more than other skaters.




    Yeah, how can they be so wrong? They have super-slo mo technical euquipment and get it right more often than wrong that's for sure. It must be a world-wide conspiracy that poor Mao who seldomly underrotates by a little is getting > calls so often. Or maybe the real problem is Mao's jumping "technique"?





    She underrotated plenty of jumps as far as I remember..the triple axel for sure and also her double loops in combo and got away with it. Let's talk seriously for a moment...Mao even regularly underrotes her double loops in her 3 jump combo which is simply embarassing for a top skater. Her jumping is simply not good, her jumps are lacking in distance and rotation and considering all that, the judges tend to be very lenient towards her in the GOEs for her jumps. She is (1) benefitting from her reputation as a top skater and (2) benefitting from the fact that the judges cannot detect her smaller underrotations and therefore do not adjust the GOE according to rules. Any complaints that Mao is hard done by the judges for her underrotations are to me completely ridiculous because the opposite is true.
    Give me a break. Mao loses from 76 to 65 in technical score skating before Lipnitskaya who loses only 4 points (so the judges keep Mao down to give Lip a chance to leapfrog her just like in Sochi where Lip gets sky high PCS); and Mao somehow deserved to lose EVEN more points "because the opposite is true".!!! Even after many commentators called her triple axel and first triple triple clean? But, I guess gutting and demeaning her effort and tech score even more than the tech judges top target, Murakami (-12!!!), is the only way a Russian can come close to the top of the podium. I guess Mao's 6 percent +3's in her stunning Sochi LP that brought so many to tears was a "score inflation" based on her "reputation," as was her shockingly and obviously unjust 5th place finish in PCS. Meanwhile, Lip's small jumps with many +2's and +3's and 27 percent +3's in tech overall is somehow wholly justified.

    Here's an idea. On behalf of the Russians, I humbly propose that we send a signed petition to the ISU requesting that a slo-mo video replay of Mao's jumps in the World's LP be analyzed under an electron microscope, even checking for any improper angle of spray off her ice blades, so that her tech scores can be taken down another 10 points, thereby allowing Lipnitskaya to leapfrog her way to Gold. Only then will justice be served!!!

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by gotoschool View Post
    Give me a break. Mao loses from 76 to 65 in technical score skating before Lipnitskaya (judges keep her down to give Lip a chance to leapfrog her just like in Sochi where Lip gets sky high PCS) and she deserved to lose EVEN more points "because the opposite is true".!!! Even after many commentators called her triple axel and first triple triple clean? But, I guess gutting and demeaning her effort and tech score even more than the tech judges top target, Murakami, is the only way a Russian can come close to the top of the podium.
    Ditto. Exactly

  6. #51
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    I don't know how anyone can take PCS seriously after seeing how Julia L's supbar FS got higher PCS than Mao's freeskate Sochi. And so much has already been said about Adelina's PCS. I think skaters can improve their second mark to a certain extent, and after that, it will depend on many outside factors.

    I'm scratching my head reading some poster's comments that Mao can improve her PCS if her performance was technically more clean. At Worlds, Kostner had a fall and singled some jumps. Her performance was filled with more obvious errors that actually disrupts the program and should have been more reflected in the performance/execution mark. Kostner has great skating skills, however I would say she is the weakest out of the top three in terms of transitions. She telegraphs a lot of her jumps and it's quite obvious in both programs. I like Kostner's programs because they have a 6.0 quality about them, but because of that, they aren't the most intricate in construction, yet she is always generously scored in transitions. Mao is generally not as fast as the other two but I've heard from fans who attended Worlds that the speed difference between Mao and Carolina wasn't that much. And they had expected Kostner to be very fast. I think Mao may give off "a fragile" image on the ice because her skating style is soft and light. As Lori Nichol said, "She flies on the ice using almost no power." I would say instead of flying, she floats on the ice.
    I also think the argument that artistic aspect held her back to be bogus imo. When she won her first WC, she received the highest PCS and the event wasn't even held in Japan. Judges obviously thought at the time she was very good in that area. Rather than 'artistry', consistency matters much more. Julia L's entire season is evidence of the magic ability of consistency in improving your ranking within a short period of time. Kostner's ability to land her jumps more in recent years definitely boosted her reputation. And she really start getting those high PCS after she became WC. On the other hand, Mao's inconsistent results in the last few years didn't help her standing. Another example is Daisuke Takahashi. He has been quite inconsistent of late which keeps his scores from being as high as Chan's and Hanyu's, even though in many ways he is artistically superior to them.


    Quote Originally Posted by hurrah View Post
    Regarding artistry, well, Mao certainly can vary her speed very well and can even JUMP TO THE MUSIC
    I've noticed that too. There are several instances in her programs, especially in her long programs, where her jumps are well-timed to the music.

  7. #52
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    Lori Nichol choreographs for Kostner, so yea she will say all the great things she thinks needs to be said about her. Anyone would if they were in that position. I'm pretty sure Lori was also not clueless to the fact that Reputation is holding up Kostner's PCS which is why she had no issues offering for her to go to/stay with an old program when the season started. Kostner could probably show up to a Senior B and win the competition just doing a full slate of doubles because the judges will not budge on her ridiculous PCS ranking.

    Personally I think the PCS of the top contenders are all inflated but that's just my opinion. It's used largely for ranking purposes. The judges could not put her above Porogilaya based on TES (Lol, that would have been a crock), so they boosted her PCS to massive levels to keep her on the Podium.

    It seems like skaters have to throw everything and the kitchen sink when they are "paying their dues" and then once they reach podium "expectations" they can suddenly rest and put out easy programs and rack in tons of points. Yuna Kim said Adios Nonino was the hardest program she's ever done. Really, that must have been some PR spin to clue the judges in to give her some high PCS because there are multiple programs of hers from the past that were far more difficult both from a Choreo and a Skating (blades to ice) point of view...

    I also think people are overall completely overrating and over-valuing the "artistry" in these programs (all of them, good and bad). Quite Frankly, being artistic at the expense of a better technical arsenal is dumb in IJS. Artistry doesn't amount to much in this scoring system...

    There is NOT MUCH in the scoring system that actually rewards artistry, so using it as a way to justify or explain ridiculous (too high, too low, inflated, robbed/held down, whatever) PCS scores or argue who should have finished on a podium/won an event/etc. is pretty laughable. This is not 6.0. You cannot score 5.7/6.0 to their 5.8/5.9 for the FS and win the ordinal anymore.

    I think that's the hardest thing that fans still haven't wrapped their heads around: The value of artistry in this sport is as low as it has ever been. TES is obviously all technical and 3/5 PCS categories are largely technical.

    So, Mao being an "artistic" skater in no way helps her in IJS. That was a 6.0 trump card, because of the ordinal system and the way ties were broken in the FS (and "controlling your own destiny"). IJS is all about Difficulty, Correctness, and Precision. Artistry has been pigeonholed to a maximum 16 or so points of the final score in the Free Skate.

    Uber Fans, Commentators, and others in the know are doing the sport a great disservice by:

    1. Equating PCS to an Artistic Merit score
    2. Stating One Skater should be ahead of another in PCS because she's more Artistic
    3. Failing to recognize that PCS is largely technical and looking at it from that point of view - NOT EVEN HALF of PCS is "Artistry"

    This really threw me for a loop watching the post-Olympic talks and hearing Sandra Bezic saying something that roughly equates to (and correct me if I'm wrong) "I'm a choreographer and that program had more special movements and nuances, so I'd have had her ahead in PCS by more."

    ---

    I actually do think Mao has a better PCS program than Kostner and Kim. I find Kim weaker than Kostner there. However, the judges will always rank those skaters where they are ranked because that is how they use PCS now. Kim > Kostner >< Asada > Everyone else... In PCS. That will never change unless Kostner skates even WORSE than she did at Worlds and Kim would've needed to fall about 4 times for her PCS to budge given the way the judges have been using that mark.

    The Shez program that Kostner started with earlier in the season was absolutely terrible yet she still was raking in high PCS for it. That's how useful that mark has become.

    The silver lining is that after the "podium" drop-off things do tend to be a bit more accurate in the PCS scoring. So, we just need for these skaters to retire so that we can hopefully have saner judging on the second mark.

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    I share the sentiment, Components. I admire Kostner, but I cannot completely be on board with others in her coronation to "Goddess" because she has been held up by the judges for far too long, to the point where people take such for granted.

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    Asada's PCS is not held down. Only Kostner's is outrageous. There must be several factors. Speedy effect + Sochi effect + Euro favorite effect + farewell gift. I hope Kostner leaves the sport forever.

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    Quote Originally Posted by usethis2 View Post
    she has been held up by the judges for far too long, to the point where people take such for granted.
    Exactly!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    I find Kim weaker than Kostner there.
    I agree. Kostner has great speed and ice coverage, while being superior to Kim in terms of carriage, line, and extension. When she skates well, she also expresses the music better in my opinion. I always believed if she had more jump consistency over the years, she would be receiving higher PCS than Kim. A few times in this past cycle, she actually did in the SP.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gotoschool View Post
    Give me a break. Mao loses from 76 to 65 in technical score skating before Lipnitskaya who loses only 4 points (so the judges keep Mao down to give Lip a chance to leapfrog her just like in Sochi where Lip gets sky high PCS); and Mao somehow deserved to lose EVEN more points "because the opposite is true".!!! Even after many commentators called her triple axel and first triple triple clean? But, I guess gutting and demeaning her effort and tech score even more than the tech judges top target, Murakami (-12!!!), is the only way a Russian can come close to the top of the podium. I guess Mao's 6 percent +3's in her stunning Sochi LP that brought so many to tears was a "score inflation" based on her "reputation," as was her shockingly and obviously unjust 5th place finish in PCS. Meanwhile, Lip's small jumps with many +2's and +3's and 27 percent +3's in tech overall is somehow wholly justified.

    Here's an idea. On behalf of the Russians, I humbly propose that we send a signed petition to the ISU requesting that a slo-mo video replay of Mao's jumps in the World's LP be analyzed under an electron microscope, even checking for any improper angle of spray off her ice blades, so that her tech scores can be taken down another 10 points, thereby allowing Lipnitskaya to leapfrog her way to Gold. Only then will justice be served!!!



    Russia = Evil.

    Japan = Innocent Angel.

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    "Yuna said Adios Nonino was the hardest program she's ever done." I believe in Yuna and it is also true. Yuna is always very humble and honest. She will not manipulate judges or PR like this. Adios is indeed the most difficult programs Yuna has even done. Technically, it is weaker than 10OG, because of rule change, she cannot do 2A-3T. But it is extremely demanding stamina wise. there is no breathing time in this programs. All new transitions for Yuna. The tango style required extreme power, control and precision. Every details in this program timed to music even including details in every jump (She cannot make a slight mistake, otherwise the timing of the whole program will be ruined, which add another level of physical and mental demand). I suggest people view Yuna's 09WC,10OG,13WC 14LPOG in a row. All almost clean LP by Yuna. You will understand why Yuna said "Adios is the most difficult...".
    For Yuna to manipulate PR or if her goal is only to win Gold medal, she can simply bring back her Les Mis. But she didnot. She tried to improve every aspect of her skating to her best. She treated Olympic spirit sincerely and put all she could out there all on the ice.
    like Yuna said she has done 120% and achieved what she wanted to achieve in Sochi, successfully. I am so proud of her.

    Sorry, a little too much about Yuna on Mao's topic....

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    I agree. Kostner has great speed and ice coverage, while being superior to Kim in terms of carriage, line, and extension. When she skates well, she also expresses the music better in my opinion. I always believed if she had more jump consistency over the years, she would be receiving higher PCS than Kim. A few times in this past cycle, she actually did in the SP.
    Oh please you are making me laugh as usual. You are one of the most biased posters who has repeated trying to play down Kim's achievements on all the boards over the years.
    I love all your hypothetical theories that has no basis in reality. It show just how insecure and petty you are now everything has ended and proven.

    PCS are hard earned through consistency, delivery, high quality of execution and artistic realization which is a major component of PCS but not the sole basis. Ideally TES should be higher than PCS in all aspects of the mark, that is why Kim deserve her PCS by actually deliver the result, not gifted by theory, politics or reputation.

    These results are outdated from Sochi and Worlds, but it should give you a clear indication just who are the ones been gifted more on PCS than TES to hold them up to the podium of all time. Someone need to update this list with the Sochi, Worlds results to firmly establish who's the queen of PCS, and that person is not Yuna Kim. I don't even need to go on about how much the Vancouver rule/point changes directly depressed Yuna's base values due to the fact she don't do the loop. To do the loop will be committing career suicide and life change injuries at that point, and we already knows how much injuries she had even without bring back the 3loop.

    http://oi43.tinypic.com/2ppir1c.jpg
    http://oi41.tinypic.com/30agn74.jpg

    Her tech at Vancouver prior to the rule changes were the HIGHEST in the whole competition. At Sochi, due to the rules/point changes, despite performing similar elements except without the 2A3T due to she don't do the 3loop factor. It shaved good 3.41 BV off her score, as well as good GOEs she would have earned for the 2A3T, minimum +2 and +3s.

    http://www.isuresults.com/results/ow..._FS_Scores.pdf
    http://library.la84.org/6oic/Officia...sults_Book.pdf

    Had the rule changes not have happened her TES would have been higher or at least on par with her PCS score ALSO here. Unlike others, Her TES has always been higher than her PCS, and when when she made error, she is always punished in her PCS. She has never won ANY single competition by PCS, if you disagree, prove it. At Sochi, she did 2 clean programs at the biggest event as the reigning OGM, reigning world champion, skating last, at her final competition ever. If there's ever one time she deserve higher PCS it was that one time. And yet her PCS is only 0.09 more than Adelina. LOL!!!!

    Besides, anyone who has ever experienced/knowledged in dance and playing music should know Adios is a far more difficult, delicate, and intricate program with greater margins for error to perform than all the ladies FS programs in Sochi. Why not just ask any ice dancer or choreographer, which is the more technically challenging program that require superior focus and technicality, edge works, control, precision and stamina to deliver? You honest think Mao and Carolina can do Adios with out falling over themselves? It is so incredibly easy to get out of sync with that piece of music. The key is it must be musically relevant to the absolute last beat. Some might not like the program, but it is nevertheless a well realised and executed difficult program. PCS is awarded on 5 components of well rounded basis, and Adios Nonino is the most holistically realized program and that is why she got the PCS, not because of reputation. Can't say for others though.

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    Oh now I remember that Caro K in Vancouver was also widely held up by PCS. With splatfest she got barely one two pts less than Nagasu's in PCS, pts higher than Flatt. Again, TES and PCS difference was somewhat like 20pts. For me, it was complete joke she got 73 PCS with such a lackluster performance at WC. Again, 20 pts difference in TES and PCS. I guess she holds a record in this area. Who else does get this kind of PCS gift? Who else? Talking about Yuna, she never won by PCS. Even when she made mistakes and won, she rotated 5 triples easily, without any call. (And compared to the other competitor, she has been always clean-er. ) So please, do not include Yuna in such discussion.

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