Not just gymnastics! All Olympic events of acrobatics are more spectacular than FS: ski jump, aerial, ramp, freestyle; while it takes a trained eye to tell apart the quality of FS acrobatics. If there was no music and/or no story then it wouldn’t be just boring. It would be unbearably boring to watch!
Dick Button: What Went Wrong With Figure Skating
- Thread starter Meoima
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Not just gymnastics! All Olympic events of acrobatics are more spectacular than FS: ski jump, aerial, ramp, freestyle; while it takes a trained eye to tell apart the quality of FS acrobatics. If there was no music and/or no story then it wouldn’t be just boring. It would be unbearably boring to watch!
Have you argued that participation in figure skating has declined? Are rinks closing? Are there fewer little girls crowding out ice time? Are coaches out of jobs? No? Then participation did not decline. It just doesn't attract advertisers. Advertisers are not the same as participants. Participants aren't bums in chairs, they are blades on the ice. Are there fewer blades on the ice?
There are many sports that aren't games; they all have their audience. I didn't argue skating doesn't need artistry, I am saying it doesn't need artistry to the exclusion of everything else, and you want to redesign the rules to reward artistry more than it is today.
Yes, but how many would do that? No one wanted to watch school figures, are they not a sport? Make ladies skate topless. People will want to watch, I guarantee you. Would it make it more, I dunno, SPORTY?
I don't think CoP was supposed to help people take skating seriously, it was supposed to make it easier to rank skaters in somewhat more transparent way.
The popularity of skating in the 90s had nothing to do with artistry and storytelling and I think you know it. You make it sound like artistic skaters didn't exist prior to that decade. Skating had scandal, people had to watch to see who would break kneecaps for THAT. It isn't because there was this fabulous crop of storytellers on ice that made people suddenly watch skating.
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I still have to see a more artistic couple than these two.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hy6Bp3NB-js
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me4FlewMtaI
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There is far less ice time being sold at rinks for figure skating then there used to be.
Who ever said it should be to the exclusion of everything else? What are you even talking about?
...that's exactly what would help people to take it more serious.
Yes it did have to do with artistry. Ice shows were popular before the Nancy/Tonya explosion and contracts were far higher than they are now. Now real ice shows and opportunities for skaters are almost non-existent.
Remember we discussed the parallels between deciding winners in wrestling and figure skating in the Creative Freedom thread:
http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/showthread.php?49959-Creative-Freedom-Is-There-Such
I was right about to ask what would be your creative ideas about a perfect win scenario - or, some good real life examples - but then I unfortunately scared you away by means of inappropriate videos
It happens.
Two comments:
Re: YuNa Kim being the favorite going into the Olympics. I believe this was conceived by the media and her many fans. I think, and have stated before, that the ISU did not want to set a president that you could skate in their sanctioned events so sporadically and then waltz in and dominate as many expected Kim to do. The ISU needs its big names to compete on the Grand Prix and at the continental championships (in her case the 4 Continents) to help improve the sport's the popularity and to help draw people to events. In other words they want their money makers to make the ISU some money, not just pad their own pockets in shows. I think this was the thought among the ISU members and judges and so when the competition was close she was not given the benefit of the doubt. Mind you, I don't blame Yuna at all for her competition schedule but I think it cost her in Sochi.
Re: the sports declining popularity. I think the huge popularity of the 90s was fueled by the Tonya/Nancy scandal during which people were introduced to Oksana who helped to continue to make headlines and then was kept popular by the emotional fuel of Sergei Grinkov's death (similar to how Dale Earnhardt's death fulled a surge in Nascar popularity for a while). Once those headlines faded so did the popularity and it returned to what it has always been, a niche sport that is on center stage once every four years. Personally I don't have a problem with this, most sports that don't have a profession league are in the same boat. It will be followed faithfully by the die hard fans each season but not by the masses. But really tell me one sport, lacking a major professional league, that is? I really don't think the problem with appealing to more people is the scoring. I think it it the nature of the sport. To a causal fan once you have a seen a skater's program once (for example on a broadcast of skate america) then why do you want to watch the same program again and again (at other grandprix events, nationals, worlds, etc). I enjoy watching to see how the programs progress but to my husband and mother who are not really skating fans it seems like I'm forcing them to watch a re-run of the same show over and over.
Re: YuNa Kim being the favorite going into the Olympics. I believe this was conceived by the media and her many fans. I think, and have stated before, that the ISU did not want to set a president that you could skate in their sanctioned events so sporadically and then waltz in and dominate as many expected Kim to do. The ISU needs its big names to compete on the Grand Prix and at the continental championships (in her case the 4 Continents) to help improve the sport's the popularity and to help draw people to events. In other words they want their money makers to make the ISU some money, not just pad their own pockets in shows. I think this was the thought among the ISU members and judges and so when the competition was close she was not given the benefit of the doubt. Mind you, I don't blame Yuna at all for her competition schedule but I think it cost her in Sochi.
Re: the sports declining popularity. I think the huge popularity of the 90s was fueled by the Tonya/Nancy scandal during which people were introduced to Oksana who helped to continue to make headlines and then was kept popular by the emotional fuel of Sergei Grinkov's death (similar to how Dale Earnhardt's death fulled a surge in Nascar popularity for a while). Once those headlines faded so did the popularity and it returned to what it has always been, a niche sport that is on center stage once every four years. Personally I don't have a problem with this, most sports that don't have a profession league are in the same boat. It will be followed faithfully by the die hard fans each season but not by the masses. But really tell me one sport, lacking a major professional league, that is? I really don't think the problem with appealing to more people is the scoring. I think it it the nature of the sport. To a causal fan once you have a seen a skater's program once (for example on a broadcast of skate america) then why do you want to watch the same program again and again (at other grandprix events, nationals, worlds, etc). I enjoy watching to see how the programs progress but to my husband and mother who are not really skating fans it seems like I'm forcing them to watch a re-run of the same show over and over.
To me that would be like asking me why I have seen my favorite movies dozens of times or why I can still enjoy a song after I've heard it for the umpteenth time. Because I like them?
But I dunno, maybe people have different expectations when watching sports (I wouldn't know, cause I don't... didn't... whatever
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I wonder if things will be better if it does indeed come to pass, that Gailhaguet succeeds Cinquanta - which everyone seems to expect.
Yes, he was implicated in the 2002 SLC scandal. But is that really a big deal?
What I'm getting at is: personally I have to wonder if Gailhaguet is really any different to any other top ISU official... just that he (and Le Gougne) had the misfortune of getting caught.
So many scandals over the years... are those just the tip of the iceberg? Are they all in on it? How many never got caught?
Perhaps actually, Gailhaguet is no worse than anybody else in the ISU... but at least he is a former figure skater...!
The danger is that Cinquanta will complete his latest plan to destroy figure skating, before he gets kicked out in 2016. Then there might not be anything left to form an independant organisation with.
Ah yes. The usual "the real crime is getting caught."
Oy veh. What else can you say?
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The same with my partner here.
I was watching I&K SD at TEB, and then the same program at Euros and he goes:" Are you watching the same event? You already watched this!".
Yuna didn't participate in the Grand Prix because she was injured.
Carolina, on the other hand, chose not to compete.
Carolina, on the other hand, chose not to compete.
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Beautiful!...and now, try this exhibition from John Curry/Cathy Foulkes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QcsAeEaCyGw
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So it boils down to whether you want figure skating to progress as a sport or an art. At least with CoP, you are seeing more people pushing the technical boundary with real #-#s, 3As, quads. Yup, Cohen was beautiful above the ankles but look down at the edges during her beautiful spirals, you see the weak edges. Kwan was lovely and the most expressive skater who connected with audience, but her technical content and speed is just blah. If skating had remained in the 6.0 days and what Uncle Button liked about the brand of impressionistic artistry, you will not see skaters being forced to improve their basic skills and jumps. Back in the 6.0 days, it was all too easy for an impressive, artistic skate to trump a more powerful and technically difficult skate as it does not have sufficient depth to reward the more difficult skills. CoP flops the other way where a good artist is not sufficiently rewarded. Its tough, but ultimately I am all for pushing the technical boundary since it is a sport. If one wants to see artistry, look to Art on Ice or Skating Galas or even better still, Bolshoi Theatre.
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I know him, he was fantastic. He really looked like a Nureyev on ice.
However, I was talking about couples in competitions.
There were many beautiful couples before these 90's that some here think were the best years.
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You're wrong. Carolina competed in to GP events and did not qualify for the GPF.
Good morning, for the record I do not dislike Yuna. That said I can't possibly imagine how anyone could say she has been the one of the most under marked skaters, the results support exactly the opposite. The judges have been very generous with her scores, look at the marks. I'm not stating they were or were not deserved, they are extremely high.
We do seem to be in more agreement regarding Patrick though.
While Mr Button makes some good points, I would be wary of "throwing the baby out with the bath water":
In my opinion, giving ZERO points for an element if the skater falls... purely in the name of making it simple for casual viewers to understand... would be going way too far. I think that would lead to stagnation, with no-one willing to attempt new or technically difficult elements.
I love BOTH the sporting/technical AND the artistic sides of figure skating. It's that combination that makes it so attractive to me.
So I want artistic merit to be rewarded (even though this requires human judges, and therefore subjectivity). But I also want technical merit (and taking risks) to be rewarded too. To me, it's just a question of striking a good balance.
Yes, it would be nice if the casual viewers could understand why skaters still get points even after a fall... but surely the simplest and easiest solution to that, is for commentators to explain it (that would take what? 1 or 2 brief sentences?! How hard can it be?)
In any case, is it so difficult to understand anyway? There are any number of other sports where people can stumble, fall, make mistakes etc... and still win.
In my opinion, giving ZERO points for an element if the skater falls... purely in the name of making it simple for casual viewers to understand... would be going way too far. I think that would lead to stagnation, with no-one willing to attempt new or technically difficult elements.
I love BOTH the sporting/technical AND the artistic sides of figure skating. It's that combination that makes it so attractive to me.
So I want artistic merit to be rewarded (even though this requires human judges, and therefore subjectivity). But I also want technical merit (and taking risks) to be rewarded too. To me, it's just a question of striking a good balance.
Yes, it would be nice if the casual viewers could understand why skaters still get points even after a fall... but surely the simplest and easiest solution to that, is for commentators to explain it (that would take what? 1 or 2 brief sentences?! How hard can it be?)
In any case, is it so difficult to understand anyway? There are any number of other sports where people can stumble, fall, make mistakes etc... and still win.
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Did you change your mind about Caro skating better? If you did, then Yuna wasn't "clearly" better than her competitors, even to you.
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Of course the irony here is that Korea is one of or maybe "the" Speed Skating powerhouse of the world. I wonder how all that plays with the latest controversy involving the country's favorite daughter? Talk about a conflict of interest!
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I think any of the newly retired skaters, who know how crappy the system is, would be worth trying. Dai, Mao, Yuna, etc. can be president! I would like to see someone young or youngish. Unfortunately, the newly retired skaters probably don't have administrative capabilities, but that can be learned. What's most important is integrity. In terms of bringing in money, Mao and Yuna do that in spades in their native countries.
While Mr Button makes some good points, I would be wary of "throwing the baby out with the bath water":
In my opinion, giving ZERO points for an element if the skater falls... purely in the name of making it simple for casual viewers to understand... would be going way too far. I think that would lead to stagnation, with no-one willing to attempt new or technically difficult elements.
I love BOTH the sporting/technical AND the artistic sides of figure skating. It's that combination that makes it so attractive to me.
So I want artistic merit to be rewarded (even though this requires human judges, and therefore subjectivity). But I also want technical merit (and taking risks) to be rewarded too. To me, it's just a question of striking a good balance.
Yes, it would be nice if the casual viewers could understand why skaters still get points even after a fall... but surely the simplest and easiest solution to that, is for commentators to explain it (that would take what? 1 or 2 brief sentences?! How hard can it be?)
In any case, is it so difficult to understand anyway? There are any number of other sports where people can stumble, fall, make mistakes etc... and still win.
Once again: Dick Button has been highly political when writing his address. He’s been saying what people might like to hear; in other words, what might work. He knows very well what the value of technical side is. He’s one of the authorities. I think no one in figure skating world doubts about it. Though, he has also enormous experience as the organizer of Pro skating. He knows what people might like. This is what figure skating world also remember. I would trust him
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