Gold standard in men's skating | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Gold standard in men's skating

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Goebel shouldnt be picked for any jump besides the quad salchow and maybe quad toe (although he would never be my first choice for the quad toe). His triples were all unremarkable and small, with fugly technique. His rep as a remarkable jumper was purely his quad ability, without his quads his jumps wouldnt even be noticed.

I wouldnt pick Buttle for any jump either. He didnt have particularly big or overly impressive jumps of any kind even when landed.

I wouldnt pick Chan for any jump. Too inconsistent on all his jumps, and there are skaters with bigger and more impressive jumps than any type he has landed anyway.

Plushenko often did a triple flip right out of a triple axel sequence (super hard) and still did it huge and beautifully with great flow out. He never had an edge call and I dont see any edge issue with his jumps. He is definitely my pick for that jump, and if it werent him Kulik, Boitano, and Oda are the next best choices.

Hanyu, Oda, Kulik, Yagudin, Millot, and Orser are all skaters who had an excellent triple loop. Millot would do many difficult combinations ending with a triple loop, and this was in the mid 90s. Probably Millot or Kulik would be the best choice.

Boitano, Browning, Oda, Kulik, Joubert, Chengiang Li, are all good choices for the triple salchow. Although Midori Ito had a better salchow than any man ever has had.

I forgot Boitano's 3 lutz somehow. He is the easy choice for that jump.
 

Alba

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 26, 2014
3A and musicality Ilia Kulik, all my life. :love:
Overall skater Yagudin.
 

Alba

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Joined
Feb 26, 2014
Many skaters aren't being experimental like a Savoie or Klimkin, because originality isn't in their nature. A lot of skaters skate, but few of them are actually originality-inclined - and that's not the fault of CoP.

I think it is. Just look the Dance.
 

YagsFan

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 25, 2010
I am absolute stunned, too. :eek:

As for me, the king of them all is the men on my avatar, no doubt about that.

Without a doubt, Meoima---I love seeing your avatar all over here; you should comment even more:laugh:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
Plushenko often did a triple flip right out of a triple axel sequence (super hard) and still did it huge and beautifully with great flow out. He never had an edge call and I dont see any edge issue with his jumps. He is definitely my pick for that jump, and if it werent him Kulik, Boitano, and Oda are the next best choices.

Hanyu, Oda, Kulik, Yagudin, Millot, and Orser are all skaters who had an excellent triple loop. Millot would do many difficult combinations ending with a triple loop, and this was in the mid 90s. Probably Millot or Kulik would be the best choice.

Boitano, Browning, Oda, Kulik, Joubert, Chengiang Li, are all good choices for the triple salchow. Although Midori Ito had a better salchow than any man ever has had.

I forgot Boitano's 3 lutz somehow. He is the easy choice for that jump.

When Plushenko did his triple flip out of his sequence it was a lip (as impressive as it was) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6m11LWPLR0 (6:45)

And he did a lip several other times as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywkMDHkeOZs (4:19)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=683FQ02vUVE (2:20)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWZaHhVr4ZQ (3:36)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFC0Mm80r-w (1:50)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNIENLK-tfM (4:10)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF10vpoJ5dk (4:16)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy-ZAwL7md0 (2:32)

Is he still "definitely your pick" for the 3F jump, and do you still think he has no edge issues? :sarcasm:

He usually avoided the flip after 2010, which was probably to avoid edge calls. He would certainly not be my candidate for best 3F, and completely false to say he never had any edge call http://www.skatingjapan.jp/InterNational/2010-2011/jo/data0105.pdf (or not deserving of an "e"l if they were actually called pre-2010).

Hanyu's loop is not one of the best ones. Several men from the 80s and 90s who you mentioned would be better candidates. Plushenko's loop is much stronger than Hanyu's too.
 

moviechick

On the Ice
Joined
May 7, 2008
Ilia Kulik's 98 Olympic performance is still my gold standard, even though the guy couldn't sit spin to save his life and wore a giraffe. Followed by Yagudin's Gladiator.

The Yagudin vs. Plushenko era was certainly a golden age. That was 3 seasons of drama that probably won't be replicated because of all the personal issues involved. Not to mention, they were both kind of dicks, which made it even more fun to watch. The 2002 Olympic Men's comp was by far the best in recent memory - 7 quads landed in total by the medalists is pretty sweet.
 

moviechick

On the Ice
Joined
May 7, 2008
Back in the old days, Yagudin and Plushy had few transitions and thus easier to be clean. I think Patrick and Yuzru rivalry is at a higher level.

Patrick vs. Yuzuru was like a 5 month long rivalry at best. And culminated at Sochi's splatfest. I mean, if Sochi was more like Worlds, at least that would've been a little more interesting?

And the Battle of the Brians is still an epic rivalry even though their levels are miles behind what FS is at right now and wouldn't even make the Junior level.
 

Alba

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Feb 26, 2014

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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Yes, and there's no need for 7 or 8 jumping passes when 2 will suffice in an SP and 4 or 5 will suffice in an LP. Arguably, those are also detracting from potential choreography/interpretation. :rolleye:

Why are your rolling your eyes? Jumps are a problem with CoP right now as well. WAY too many are required in the LP. Skaters should have more options in the LP for what elements they want to perform. 3 jumping passes in the SP should definitely be required and a minimum of 5 for the Ladies LP and 6 for the Men's LP would be ideal (although every lady would almost always do at least 6 in the LP and every man would almost always do at least 7).

Not every movement has to be purposeful

Yes it does, if the goal is masterful choreography.

Also it's highly unlikely that skaters in 2002 could have done the spins we see today and maintain the consistency.

Training methods and technology have become much better. I'm quite sure they could have. The bigger problem is footwork sequences and trying to cram in meaningless transitions everywhere, although spins are judged too much on complexity right now as well. Again, there needs to be a balance.
 

moviechick

On the Ice
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May 7, 2008
I was hooked after his Aladdin program actually. Granted, I was like 7 at the time so Disney movies were the way to my heart.

I do wish he stayed longer, but he was smart to cash in on the pros before it went completely bust. I don't think he would've done well against Yags/Plush after 99' anyways.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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And the Battle of the Brians is still an epic rivalry even though their levels are miles behind what FS is at right now and wouldn't even make the Junior level.

Brian Boitano's Olympic performance in 1988 would have deserved to rank #1 in the LP at 2014 Olympics, if the judging was accurate.
 

Alba

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Feb 26, 2014
I was hooked after his Aladdin program actually. Granted, I was like 7 at the time so Disney movies were the way to my heart.

:laugh: He looked very much like Di Caprio there.

I do wish he stayed longer, but he was smart to cash in on the pros before it went completely bust. I don't think he would've done well against Yags/Plush after 99' anyways.

Yeah probably smart, but I do think he would've done well against them. Granted consistency was not his forte but his jumps were so effortless.
I remember Tarasova being mad at him for retiring so young. :laugh:
I think he just wasn't too much into a competition battle thing, didn't care so much. That's how it looked at least.

5 years after he turned pro:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-hQp1zd00Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyz58cbaLUE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxTcUR1VAII
 

moviechick

On the Ice
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May 7, 2008
Brian Boitano's Olympic performance in 1988 would have deserved to rank #1 in the LP at 2014 Olympics, if the judging was accurate.

In all fairness, so would like the previous OGM performances except maybe Petrenko and Urmanov. Doesn't mean it would actually happen with the way judging is right now.

Point is, comparing eras 25 years apart is stupid. Skaters weren't trained the same way.
 

shine

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Men's skating has changed so much since Yagudin's days. It's hard to call him the golden standard because he skated so much on one foot. In retrospect, I also don't think his so called artistry was really that impressive. It's actually pretty overrated and one-note. Although he did present a pretty complete and balanced package on the ice between presentation and jump content. He definitely was an amazing athlete, but his programs are not the ones that I would watch today and still find very original or interesting.

Plushenko's jumps + Lambiel's PCS

I agree with this. Although I always wished that Lambiel had been able to keep up his technical ability as he matured into an artist, which he couldn't. Because had that been the case he would've been the all time best skater for me.

I think Chan at his best is probably the closest to what we have as the complete package today. I'm not too big on his overall presentation but it is certainly good enough, and his skating skills are undeniably phenomenal; the jumps are also beautiful when he's on.
 

moviechick

On the Ice
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May 7, 2008
I loved Yags back in the day, but I'll admit that MITIM was one too many in the heroic movie soundtracks column. I'm not really a fan of that program tbh. That was clearly when the Morozombie first peeped its head (so much stopping and posing!).

Plushenko with a semi-decent choreographer would've been nice to see. He clearly has the talent and presence, just never the right vehicle.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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In all fairness, so would like the previous OGM performances except maybe Petrenko and Urmanov. Doesn't mean it would actually happen with the way judging is right now.

Petrenko definitely wouldn't. That's by far the worst Olympic Gold performance of the post-1984 era. Urmanov, nah. His performance was somewhat better than Hanyu's but he made multiple spin mistakes, plus the one jump mistake.

1. Yagudin
2. Boitano (I'd put this VERY near Yagudin and definitely #1 on PCS)
3. Plushenko
4. Kulik (the definition of basic, but he did have great edge quality and a clean program with the Quad)
5. Lysacek
6. Hanyu
7. Urmanov
8. Petrenko

Only Yagudin and Boitano gave really good Olympic LP performances.
 

AliceInWonderland

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 1, 2014
Patrick vs. Yuzuru was like a 5 month long rivalry at best. And culminated at Sochi's splatfest. I mean, if Sochi was more like Worlds, at least that would've been a little more interesting?

And the Battle of the Brians is still an epic rivalry even though their levels are miles behind what FS is at right now and wouldn't even make the Junior level.

Yagushenko is the gold standard rivalry ;)
 

moviechick

On the Ice
Joined
May 7, 2008
I'd have Kulik at least above Plushenko. The 06' version of Plushenko's LP was so watered down and that performance was just him mentally running down the clock cause no one else stood a chance. Hell, I'd put his 2002 silver medal LP way above that (which at least had some very ambitious and impressive tech content) and was probably the most artistic he ever was.

No surprise that the best performances happened in Olympic years with very strong rivalries.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Who is the gold standard in men's skating? Call me biased but I think it's still Yagudin. No one has consistently presented such a perfect blend of artistry and technique since he retired. Chan is great but all of falls and controversial scores don't help. Hanyu has plenty of potential but his artistry isn't there yet. Discuss.
I agree - Yagudin is a good choice. His two skates at the Olympics really show why; not only was he almost spot on technically, the performance quality was fantastic and the whole thing was just superb. Could have have adjusted to the IJS had the hip problems not ended his career? I don't know, but at his best he was really amazing. And the Plushenko-Yagudin rivalry was the best.

Exactly. 2002 programs were so basic compared to what the guys are doing now.
Which allowed skaters to hold edges, achieve height and distance on jumps rather than sticking in transitions before and after dodgy ones, do steps in an actual pattern and focus on the performance. I'd rather watch 6.0 programs than much of what passes for great choreo and program construction these days. It's all so alike and so dull.

Patrick Chan's TEB skate, good as it was, to me was exactly the sum of its parts. That's what the IJS rewards, and that's why it's a world record, not because it's necessarily the best blend of tech and artistry; it's the best a skater has done at checking off all the boxes with the skating skills to back it up. I can watch and admire the skill (I did) but it leaves me absolutely cold. Chan never had to develop as a performer because his skating skills would get him high PCS across the board. I like my skaters a bit more charismatic than that.

In term of performance and choreography undoubtedly Lambiel's Poeta.
Absolutely - and it scored less than 80 on PCS when he debuted it, which brings me to Olympia's point:

Well, the points score is kind of irrelevant. They keep pushing it up, naturally, as time goes on, so you can't compare. But certainly Hanyu is extraordinary, and at a very early age.
The scoring inflation has gotten absurd in recent years. Top skaters are showered with PCS and GOEs whether deserved or not, and nobody else can compete (see Abbott at this year's Worlds for an example). Hanyu is wonderful, but he's consistently getting top TES scores even when his execution of the elements is sloppy. The quad fall strategy is not something I can get behind, for any skater.

Because I love Takahashi so much, I can't evaluate him objectively. Does anyone here have any thoughts on where he would fit in a discussion like this? Obviously his injury in 2008 or so hampered him, but even so, he managed to excel and reclaim many of his jumps. And then there's all the other stuff, much of which he does with no equal at the present time.
I'd rather watch Dai's 2010 programs than any of the ones that have won Worlds/Olys since then, and the 2012 ones were even better (#Daiwuzrobbed). And I'm not even a huge fan of his!
 
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