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Thread: Gold standard in men's skating

  1. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Plushenko often did a triple flip right out of a triple axel sequence (super hard) and still did it huge and beautifully with great flow out. He never had an edge call and I dont see any edge issue with his jumps. He is definitely my pick for that jump, and if it werent him Kulik, Boitano, and Oda are the next best choices.

    Hanyu, Oda, Kulik, Yagudin, Millot, and Orser are all skaters who had an excellent triple loop. Millot would do many difficult combinations ending with a triple loop, and this was in the mid 90s. Probably Millot or Kulik would be the best choice.

    Boitano, Browning, Oda, Kulik, Joubert, Chengiang Li, are all good choices for the triple salchow. Although Midori Ito had a better salchow than any man ever has had.

    I forgot Boitano's 3 lutz somehow. He is the easy choice for that jump.
    When Plushenko did his triple flip out of his sequence it was a lip (as impressive as it was) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6m11LWPLR0 (6:45)

    And he did a lip several other times as well:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywkMDHkeOZs (4:19)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=683FQ02vUVE (2:20)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWZaHhVr4ZQ (3:36)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NFC0Mm80r-w (1:50)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lNIENLK-tfM (4:10)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF10vpoJ5dk (4:16)
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy-ZAwL7md0 (2:32)

    Is he still "definitely your pick" for the 3F jump, and do you still think he has no edge issues?

    He usually avoided the flip after 2010, which was probably to avoid edge calls. He would certainly not be my candidate for best 3F, and completely false to say he never had any edge call http://www.skatingjapan.jp/InterNati...o/data0105.pdf (or not deserving of an "e"l if they were actually called pre-2010).

    Hanyu's loop is not one of the best ones. Several men from the 80s and 90s who you mentioned would be better candidates. Plushenko's loop is much stronger than Hanyu's too.

  2. #47
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    Ilia Kulik's 98 Olympic performance is still my gold standard, even though the guy couldn't sit spin to save his life and wore a giraffe. Followed by Yagudin's Gladiator.

    The Yagudin vs. Plushenko era was certainly a golden age. That was 3 seasons of drama that probably won't be replicated because of all the personal issues involved. Not to mention, they were both kind of dicks, which made it even more fun to watch. The 2002 Olympic Men's comp was by far the best in recent memory - 7 quads landed in total by the medalists is pretty sweet.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by lakeside View Post
    Back in the old days, Yagudin and Plushy had few transitions and thus easier to be clean. I think Patrick and Yuzru rivalry is at a higher level.
    Patrick vs. Yuzuru was like a 5 month long rivalry at best. And culminated at Sochi's splatfest. I mean, if Sochi was more like Worlds, at least that would've been a little more interesting?

    And the Battle of the Brians is still an epic rivalry even though their levels are miles behind what FS is at right now and wouldn't even make the Junior level.

  4. #49
    Yulia and Ruslena team forever! Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moviechick View Post
    Ilia Kulik's 98 Olympic performance is still my gold standard, even though the guy couldn't sit spin to save his life and wore a giraffe.


    He was great there, but his best programs from a coreo point of view were his SP (Faust) and LP (Romeo&Juliet) in 1997.

    SP - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QY8Lqok4UY
    LP - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MKJt9Rh28Xs

    Pity he left so early, just 20 yrs old. When he was on his day, OH........speechless.

  5. #50
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Yes, and there's no need for 7 or 8 jumping passes when 2 will suffice in an SP and 4 or 5 will suffice in an LP. Arguably, those are also detracting from potential choreography/interpretation.
    Why are your rolling your eyes? Jumps are a problem with CoP right now as well. WAY too many are required in the LP. Skaters should have more options in the LP for what elements they want to perform. 3 jumping passes in the SP should definitely be required and a minimum of 5 for the Ladies LP and 6 for the Men's LP would be ideal (although every lady would almost always do at least 6 in the LP and every man would almost always do at least 7).

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Not every movement has to be purposeful
    Yes it does, if the goal is masterful choreography.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Also it's highly unlikely that skaters in 2002 could have done the spins we see today and maintain the consistency.
    Training methods and technology have become much better. I'm quite sure they could have. The bigger problem is footwork sequences and trying to cram in meaningless transitions everywhere, although spins are judged too much on complexity right now as well. Again, there needs to be a balance.

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    I was hooked after his Aladdin program actually. Granted, I was like 7 at the time so Disney movies were the way to my heart.

    I do wish he stayed longer, but he was smart to cash in on the pros before it went completely bust. I don't think he would've done well against Yags/Plush after 99' anyways.

  7. #52
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moviechick View Post
    And the Battle of the Brians is still an epic rivalry even though their levels are miles behind what FS is at right now and wouldn't even make the Junior level.
    Brian Boitano's Olympic performance in 1988 would have deserved to rank #1 in the LP at 2014 Olympics, if the judging was accurate.

  8. #53
    Yulia and Ruslena team forever! Alba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moviechick View Post
    I was hooked after his Aladdin program actually. Granted, I was like 7 at the time so Disney movies were the way to my heart.
    He looked very much like Di Caprio there.

    I do wish he stayed longer, but he was smart to cash in on the pros before it went completely bust. I don't think he would've done well against Yags/Plush after 99' anyways.
    Yeah probably smart, but I do think he would've done well against them. Granted consistency was not his forte but his jumps were so effortless.
    I remember Tarasova being mad at him for retiring so young.
    I think he just wasn't too much into a competition battle thing, didn't care so much. That's how it looked at least.

    5 years after he turned pro:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h-hQp1zd00Y
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vyz58cbaLUE
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxTcUR1VAII

  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Brian Boitano's Olympic performance in 1988 would have deserved to rank #1 in the LP at 2014 Olympics, if the judging was accurate.
    In all fairness, so would like the previous OGM performances except maybe Petrenko and Urmanov. Doesn't mean it would actually happen with the way judging is right now.

    Point is, comparing eras 25 years apart is stupid. Skaters weren't trained the same way.

  10. #55
    Thank God for Stephane Lambiel and Matt Savoie! shine's Avatar
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    Men's skating has changed so much since Yagudin's days. It's hard to call him the golden standard because he skated so much on one foot. In retrospect, I also don't think his so called artistry was really that impressive. It's actually pretty overrated and one-note. Although he did present a pretty complete and balanced package on the ice between presentation and jump content. He definitely was an amazing athlete, but his programs are not the ones that I would watch today and still find very original or interesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silvia451 View Post
    Plushenko's jumps + Lambiel's PCS
    I agree with this. Although I always wished that Lambiel had been able to keep up his technical ability as he matured into an artist, which he couldn't. Because had that been the case he would've been the all time best skater for me.

    I think Chan at his best is probably the closest to what we have as the complete package today. I'm not too big on his overall presentation but it is certainly good enough, and his skating skills are undeniably phenomenal; the jumps are also beautiful when he's on.

  11. #56
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    I loved Yags back in the day, but I'll admit that MITIM was one too many in the heroic movie soundtracks column. I'm not really a fan of that program tbh. That was clearly when the Morozombie first peeped its head (so much stopping and posing!).

    Plushenko with a semi-decent choreographer would've been nice to see. He clearly has the talent and presence, just never the right vehicle.

  12. #57
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moviechick View Post
    In all fairness, so would like the previous OGM performances except maybe Petrenko and Urmanov. Doesn't mean it would actually happen with the way judging is right now.
    Petrenko definitely wouldn't. That's by far the worst Olympic Gold performance of the post-1984 era. Urmanov, nah. His performance was somewhat better than Hanyu's but he made multiple spin mistakes, plus the one jump mistake.

    1. Yagudin
    2. Boitano (I'd put this VERY near Yagudin and definitely #1 on PCS)
    3. Plushenko
    4. Kulik (the definition of basic, but he did have great edge quality and a clean program with the Quad)
    5. Lysacek
    6. Hanyu
    7. Urmanov
    8. Petrenko

    Only Yagudin and Boitano gave really good Olympic LP performances.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by moviechick View Post
    Patrick vs. Yuzuru was like a 5 month long rivalry at best. And culminated at Sochi's splatfest. I mean, if Sochi was more like Worlds, at least that would've been a little more interesting?

    And the Battle of the Brians is still an epic rivalry even though their levels are miles behind what FS is at right now and wouldn't even make the Junior level.
    Yagushenko is the gold standard rivalry

  14. #59
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    I'd have Kulik at least above Plushenko. The 06' version of Plushenko's LP was so watered down and that performance was just him mentally running down the clock cause no one else stood a chance. Hell, I'd put his 2002 silver medal LP way above that (which at least had some very ambitious and impressive tech content) and was probably the most artistic he ever was.

    No surprise that the best performances happened in Olympic years with very strong rivalries.

  15. #60
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AliceInWonderland View Post
    Who is the gold standard in men's skating? Call me biased but I think it's still Yagudin. No one has consistently presented such a perfect blend of artistry and technique since he retired. Chan is great but all of falls and controversial scores don't help. Hanyu has plenty of potential but his artistry isn't there yet. Discuss.
    I agree - Yagudin is a good choice. His two skates at the Olympics really show why; not only was he almost spot on technically, the performance quality was fantastic and the whole thing was just superb. Could have have adjusted to the IJS had the hip problems not ended his career? I don't know, but at his best he was really amazing. And the Plushenko-Yagudin rivalry was the best.

    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Exactly. 2002 programs were so basic compared to what the guys are doing now.
    Which allowed skaters to hold edges, achieve height and distance on jumps rather than sticking in transitions before and after dodgy ones, do steps in an actual pattern and focus on the performance. I'd rather watch 6.0 programs than much of what passes for great choreo and program construction these days. It's all so alike and so dull.

    Patrick Chan's TEB skate, good as it was, to me was exactly the sum of its parts. That's what the IJS rewards, and that's why it's a world record, not because it's necessarily the best blend of tech and artistry; it's the best a skater has done at checking off all the boxes with the skating skills to back it up. I can watch and admire the skill (I did) but it leaves me absolutely cold. Chan never had to develop as a performer because his skating skills would get him high PCS across the board. I like my skaters a bit more charismatic than that.

    Quote Originally Posted by treeloving View Post
    In term of performance and choreography undoubtedly Lambiel's Poeta.
    Absolutely - and it scored less than 80 on PCS when he debuted it, which brings me to Olympia's point:

    Quote Originally Posted by Olympia View Post
    Well, the points score is kind of irrelevant. They keep pushing it up, naturally, as time goes on, so you can't compare. But certainly Hanyu is extraordinary, and at a very early age.
    The scoring inflation has gotten absurd in recent years. Top skaters are showered with PCS and GOEs whether deserved or not, and nobody else can compete (see Abbott at this year's Worlds for an example). Hanyu is wonderful, but he's consistently getting top TES scores even when his execution of the elements is sloppy. The quad fall strategy is not something I can get behind, for any skater.

    Because I love Takahashi so much, I can't evaluate him objectively. Does anyone here have any thoughts on where he would fit in a discussion like this? Obviously his injury in 2008 or so hampered him, but even so, he managed to excel and reclaim many of his jumps. And then there's all the other stuff, much of which he does with no equal at the present time.
    I'd rather watch Dai's 2010 programs than any of the ones that have won Worlds/Olys since then, and the 2012 ones were even better (#Daiwuzrobbed). And I'm not even a huge fan of his!

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