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Thread: Gold standard in men's skating

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post



    The scoring inflation has gotten absurd in recent years. Top skaters are showered with PCS and GOEs whether deserved or not, and nobody else can compete (see Abbott at this year's Worlds for an example). Hanyu is wonderful, but he's consistently getting top TES scores even when his execution of the elements is sloppy. The quad fall strategy is not something I can get behind, for any skater.

    There is nothing strange in Hanyu's TES score. Basically his TES here at worlds wasn't so high as for him. When he will go absolutely perfect on everything even TES around 108-110 will be possible for him. He have the highest BV in his programme in the field. Abott is miles away from him in technical level.

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    Quote Originally Posted by moviechick View Post
    I do wish he stayed longer, but he was smart to cash in on the pros before it went completely bust. I don't think he would've done well against Yags/Plush after 99' anyways.
    You mean it wasn't to do Center Stage?

    Quote Originally Posted by HanDomi View Post
    There is nothing strange in Hanyu's TES score. Basically his TES here at worlds wasn't so high as for him. When he will go absolutely perfect on everything even TES around 108-110 will be possible for him. He have the highest BV in his programme in the field. Abott is miles away from him in technical level.
    Did I call it strange, or did I say I disagreed with it? You're missing the point: I take issue with Hanyu's GOE and PCS, not his BV. I don't think the TES he gets is right, whether at his best or at his not-so-best, and cramming in high-BV elements, regardless of how well one can execute them (if at all), is not my idea of great skating. Also, I think Abbott was lowballed on PCS and some of the GOE compared to the medalists at this year's Worlds. Abbott's FS is beautifully choreographed and he skated it very well.

    I also take issue with your misuse of the sarcasm smiley.

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    I take issue with Hanyu's GOE and PCS, not his BV; I don't think the TES he gets is right, whether at his best or at his not so best, and cramming in high-BV elements, whether one can execute them well or not, is not my idea of great skating. Also, I think Abbott was lowballed on PCS and some of the GOE compared to the medalists at this year's Worlds. Abbott's FS is beautifully choreographed and he skated it very well.

    I also take issue with your misuse of the sarcasm smiley.
    I think it's because Abbott, no matter how beautifully skater he truly is (believe me, I love his skating), he often underperformed in international events, people have known that for years. I think that's the reason the judges put him out of the PCS cushion range for medal contenders right away.

    As for Hanyu's GOE, I think it's reasonable since when he is on, his jumps are truly spectacular and judges tend to be impressed by big jumps other than smoothy skills on ice. He does has a weak jump now and then, but overall his jumps quality are better than most skaters in the men field. When I say better, that means "in general", not in any particular jump. Pchan, even when he nails the axel, could not get high GEO as Hanyu's 3A. The only Asian men who has a better Axel than Hanyu is Han Yan, but he is off-on-off-on-off. Hanyu's biggest mental block at the moment is his 4S, but finally he landed it in Worlds so I guess next season he's gonna aim for consistency of this jump. He's gonna be shaper in his moves. Personally I think Hanyu's GOE is quite well-deserved.

    About the PCS inflation. I also find it's stupid and confusing and incomprehensible too. At this rate, all the medal contenders (whom the judges have already decided even before the SP) will likely to get all 90s PCS for free skate now, the rest should just go home.

    In 2012, only PChan was rewards 90s PCS for his spectacular skating skills which was quite well-deserved when he was on. But when he was off, I don't see it why they gave him such score. Don't get me wrong, I love PChan, but I have to admit PCS inflation all started from him. It's not his fault, it's the judges' fault for over-rewarding him with over-the-top PCS even when he fell.

    And this was just the beginning of a bad trend. Look at what happened at Sochi, ladies events. They gave all the medal contenders relatively even mark in PCS so they could use TES and GOE as excuses.

    Now worlds 2014, all the men with exceptional SP get 90s PCS. Machida jumped 10 points in PCS for his flappy bird program. Okay his SP was really good but I don't get his LP at all. Even when he was on, I would only give him 82-84 PCS at most for that performance. If they were more strict on him, 80 PCS is at most. Hanyu's PCS is 91 which is quite unreasonable for his Juliet-narcissist long program and I don't understand why/how, David Wilson and Brian Orser's reputation? His higest PCS score should just be 85-87. Anyways, kudo to him for finally delivered a clean long program for the second time in the season. I was so moved by his effort, he deserved the gold. Not that PCS score, though.

    But anyways, PChan, Hanyu and Machida are not the ones who get unreasonable high PCS for lackluster long program. even Javi get 91 PCS, as high as Hanyu, what can I explain? I don't get it either. I love Javi out of these 3 most, but I admit he sometimes look labour on ice. His LP this season suits his personality and strength so well, but still not a masterpiece or a memorable program. I blame that on the choreographer. But overall his LP works. What a pity he mad mistakes, other wise he would have been the gold medalist because top 3 have relatively same PCS, so the one with higher TES would likely to be the winner.

    Overall, I am okay with the placement, but their PCS should just be in mid 80s at most.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    But anyways, PChan, Hanyu and Machida are not the ones who get unreasonable high PCS for lackluster long program. even Javi get 91 PCS, as high as Hanyu, what can I explain?
    Chan was held up as the official ISU favorite. Before 2010, it was mostly due to his position as the Olympic host favorite (as Sotnikova or Lip are treated). After that he became the flag bearer of the new quad era. I assume his many undeserving "wins" are rewards from the ISU for his "contributions".

    Hanyu was held up as Chan's rival. The ISU wanted to avoid a scandal like London worlds happening in Sochi. They needed a genuine rival who can unseat Chan when he makes more than one error. Since no one can expect the higher PCS than Chan, the "rival" must be someone who has decisive technical advantages (base values). Hanyu was the chosen one and now he is the favorite at every competition

    Machida was held up only because it was in Japan. He would be behind Fernandez everywhere else. Since Hanyu was THE favorite, he received the major part of the home boost.

    Fernandez is held up as the European favorite, same as Kostner of past eight years. But his position is not as secure as Kostner (who had the Speedy backing and weaker competitions in Europe).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    About the PCS inflation. I also find it's stupid and confusing and incomprehensible too. At this rate, all the medal contenders (whom the judges have already decided even before the SP) will likely to get all 90s PCS for free skate now, the rest should just go home.

    ...

    And this was just the beginning of a bad trend. Look at what happened at Sochi, ladies events. They gave all the medal contenders relatively even mark in PCS so they could use TES and GOE as excuses.
    Yes, exactly. The dance event at Worlds was decided by the PCS in the FD, where there was only a slight difference between the top teams, and in the wrong direction on top of that. There needs to be proper differentiation and the judges should be encouraged to vary the components if the skating warrants it and not cluster them together. But that's another matter.

    Hanyu definitely deserves high marks for his lovely 3A, but not for every element he does and certainly not the PCS he gets. And with the PCS gap now being what it is, everyone else might as well pack it in.

    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    Fernandez is held up as the European favorite, same as Kostner of past eight years. But his position is not as secure as Kostner (who had the Speedy backing and weaker competitions in Europe).
    Fernandez can only dream about Kostner's skating skills and her range as a performer. Kostner gets high PCS (for a lady - who tend to be underscored compared to other disciplines) because her skating is very IJS-friendly.

    If anything, Fernandez is held up because he's a good jumper and from Team Orser. There is no bonus for being Spanish or some kind of all-Euro PCS boost.

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    Yagudin, Lambiel and Chan are the Gold Standards to me. ( We discuss about Chan because he didn't win Olympic Gold, which he could win even with a mediocre skating, but he was not able to do so.., but still many unmachable quality included in his skating as a whole package like the other 2 I mentioned).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Hanyu definitely deserves high marks for his lovely 3A, but not for every element he does and certainly not the PCS he gets. And with the PCS gap now being what it is, everyone else might as well pack it in.
    Not all the elements that Hanyu does are beautiful but overall his executions are better than most men in general. His spins are also very good, so why not give him high GOE?

    I don't agree with his PCS (and Machida and Javi's PCS as well) but personally I think Hanyu's GOE is quite reasonable, and the main reason is that judges tend to be impressed by big jumps. Technically if I were a judge and I have only 5-7 minutes to score each skater, I would tend to give higher mark for the one who execute most of the elements well, especially who has big and beautiful jumps.

    It's not like the judges have hours and hours to review all the jumps and compare each one to another. Hanyu might not have the highest mark of GOE for each elements, but he often gets relatively high marks for all the elements. For example, he might score lower in SS and IN, but still remarkable high compare to most men, while the one who get the highest mark in SS get extremely lower marks in other elements. When the general quality of all elements are relatively high, it's understandable that Hanyu often ends up with high GOE. Ever from his debut at senior worlds, unless he was remarkably off like what happened in his SP at worlds 2013, judges often give him high execution mark, it's not a plot they use to pack him up against PChan because he was still just a newbie at that time. His TES in all of his three worlds are highest of all men.

    It's a tendency for the judges to score him high GOE. And it's subjective since they have had an impression for a while that Hanyu has spectacular jumps (and it's true) and they love that, so high GOE is a bonus.

    Anyways, at least Hanyu delivers most of his jumps well (not the 4S) and people can see that "oh, beautiful jump", unlike a certain olympic champion with unreliable jumps and not so beautiful executions. You know who.

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    The programs of 1948 are empty compared to today. Yet, would anyone dare argue that Patrick Chan and Yuzuru Hanyu are better than Dick Button? Frankly, as much as I think people were way too harsh on Patrick Chan and the other men, in general, regarding their skating in Sochi, I would never compare him favorably with Takahashi or Lambiel, let alone Yagudin, Browning Button, Curry, etc.

    The gold standard is not about doing more than what your predecessors have done, in my opinion. All sports evolve, and figure skaters are now doing things that were not considered in years past. Does competing in this era automatically make Chan and and Hanyu the gold standard over others that have come before them? I would say no way, and I say that as much as I love Hanyu. He has a lot of developing to do to. As for Chan, there is something lacking there, in my opinion. I know he has legions of fans, but no matter his accomplishments, his skating has never won me over. He gets the points, that's for sure, but I would not go out of my way to see him perform.

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    That is a really good point, Panpie. You said it... all sports evolve, and figure skaters these days need to be technically superior than they were in the past... and superior in areas outside of the elements. You won't get a John Curry anymore because skating is different now. So why not just let John Curry be John Curry, and Chan/Hanyu be Chan/Hanyu?

    A song sounds way better on vinyl than mp3, to a lot of people... a silent film is more enjoyable to some than a film wrought with special effects. But these are the times.

    You want John Curry, go and watch John Curry. But don't expect skaters these days to have to live up to that when the sport of figure skating is becoming more technically demanding (as any sport that truly evolves inevitably ends up doing). If every skater is giving clean performances with 5 jumping passes and simple choreography and easy spins, you're sending the sport back 30 years, and then you REALLY won't get people watching it.

    I don't want to watch a competition with 30 John Currys because that to me isn't a competition worthy of 2014. That's not to say I don't respect the past but people should move forward instead of having a retrospective way of thinking, "Welllll, back in the good ole days, we didn't have none of these transitions and spins nonsense! Watching Curry do a walley on my grainy VHS was better than any goshdarn quad."

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    I agree with you! I love the skaters from my childhood and they have a halo of nostalgia surrounding them, but I want the skaters of today to keep pushing the sport forward technically...and artistically. -However 'artistically' may not be what I or others remember from the good old days.
    Another way of looking at it is, when you get a younger fan of figure skating (there are plenty of them here in Japan) who has grown up with Mao, Hanyu, Daisuke and Chan, and show them John Curry, do they think, 'gosh, things should really go back to that'? Not those I have shared my love of figure skating with, although everyone is different.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Panpie View Post
    The gold standard is not about doing more than what your predecessors have done, in my opinion. All sports evolve, and figure skaters are now doing things that were not considered in years past. Does competing in this era automatically make Chan and and Hanyu the gold standard over others that have come before them? I would say no way, and I say that as much as I love Hanyu. He has a lot of developing to do to. As for Chan, there is something lacking there, in my opinion. I know he has legions of fans, but no matter his accomplishments, his skating has never won me over. He gets the points, that's for sure, but I would not go out of my way to see him perform.
    I agree, and I'd add that while the sport has advanced in some ways, there were things that skaters of the past could do that today's competitors could not - most notably, figures; also good compulsory dances rather than patterns geared toward hitting the keypoints.

    I guess that the gold standard is someone who by the standard of their time was 1. really good results-wise (bonus if it was at truly major events) 2. a strong skater technically and hopefully artistically, and 3. often ahead of the game either technically or artistically. It's one thing to learn triples when it's standard and another to be the first to do a triple jump, or to have Dartfish to work on your jumps as opposed to improvising, or to be so special artistically/as a free skater that you're remembered 40 years later. The gold standard should stand the test of time even if the technical level continues to progress.

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    Quote Originally Posted by HanDomi View Post
    There is nothing strange in Hanyu's TES score. Basically his TES here at worlds wasn't so high as for him. When he will go absolutely perfect on everything even TES around 108-110 will be possible for him. He have the highest BV in his programme in the field. Abott is miles away from him in technical level.
    I agree,

    Buttercup, have you actually gone back and watch slow-mos of his landings? Most of them are quite good and deserve the + GOEs. Why do you think he's being accredited for being a great jumper? He knows this too, which is why even with the fall on the first salchow in the FP, he gives his all into his other jumps to secure the number of points he can collect on his triples, particularly his axel combinations. A couple of his landings can be better in terms of the speed coming out but I don't see why people are complaining about his GOEs when he makes lutzes look effortless.

    Also, people focus on his jumps but his spins? Like Simon Reed said from Eurosports, they are to die for. They're extremely centered and very fast, even when you're comparing against top 15 mens. Also, his flexible body makes them look almost rubber-like. He definitely deserves all GOEs in his programs. Sometimes, after watching him spin in competition, everyone else seems to be moving at a much slower rate.

  13. #73
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    What is a 'gold standard' anyway? One thing by which everything else is measured?
    Figure skating is a broader sport than that. Each figure skater owes it to themselves to maximize on their strengths and minimize their weaknesses and the roads to that goal are many and varied. This is a competition first and foremost. If a skater can make up for their lack of artistry with speed and jumps, then it is their right to do so and good for them! If a skater happens to have both...well, that's the best isn't it? But there is no one perfectly balanced between the two. Who is to say the artistic skater is 'better' than the technical skater? Artistry and Technicals have points assigned to them so that you can excel greatly in one or the other...or both. I like this about figure skating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Newbiespectator View Post
    What is a 'gold standard' anyway? One thing by which everything else is measured?
    Figure skating is a broader sport than that. Each figure skater owes it to themselves to maximize on their strengths and minimize their weaknesses and the roads to that goal are many and varied. This is a competition first and foremost. If a skater can make up for their lack of artistry with speed and jumps, then it is their right to do so and good for them! If a skater happens to have both...well, that's the best isn't it? But there is no one perfectly balanced between the two. Who is to say the artistic skater is 'better' than the technical skater? Artistry and Technicals have points assigned to them so that you can excel greatly in one or the other...or both. I like this about figure skating.
    Great point !

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    Quote Originally Posted by Newbiespectator View Post
    What is a 'gold standard' anyway? One thing by which everything else is measured?
    Figure skating is a broader sport than that. Each figure skater owes it to themselves to maximize on their strengths and minimize their weaknesses and the roads to that goal are many and varied. This is a competition first and foremost. If a skater can make up for their lack of artistry with speed and jumps, then it is their right to do so and good for them! If a skater happens to have both...well, that's the best isn't it? But there is no one perfectly balanced between the two. Who is to say the artistic skater is 'better' than the technical skater? Artistry and Technicals have points assigned to them so that you can excel greatly in one or the other...or both. I like this about figure skating.
    Well said. If everyone were a gold standard skater, the sport wouldn't be very interesting to watch. I can still appreciate Goebel or Reynolds even if he lacks ideal artistry, and I can still appreciate Brown or Takahashi even if he lacks the top jumps.

    It's arguably better for a skater to be excellent or memorable in a particular aspect of their skating and weak in other parts, rather than being average or slightly above average in all aspects of your skating. It's why people will remember Lucinda Ruh more than other World and Olympic medalists, and why Jason Brown can get 4 million Youtube hits without a quad.

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