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Thread: Are Spins Underscored and Undervalued in Figure Skating?

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    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    What is a spin worth to you....the little girl her red coat and huge spins!!

    I read an article were Eteri Tutberidzi is quoted saying that she finds it unfair that Yulia achieves positions and spins better than a lot of other girls in the field and how it gets scored. She doesn't think it's fair that other competitors can do lower quality spins and achieve level 4 and get 2-3 GOE. Here is an excerpt from that article:

    Maybe the world championship we will try to complicate rotation. Even for me, a woman accustomed to the new rotation Julia look very unusual. It's a shame that kind of rotation we obtain the same points as rivals. If, for example, put them plus three, then we should have five plus. Well, okay, we do it for the image of the program, the audience "- quoted Tutberidze FFKR official website.

    Andrei Sokolov published | Source - FFKR
    I did a review of the GPF finals where Yulia and Mao faced off. Looking at the protocols Yulia's final spin which was well centered and received +3 GOE was worth 0.50 less than Mao's first 3a attempt which received -3 GOE across the board. Is it beneficial to the sport to award a botched 3a the same score as a groundbreaking spin that adds artistically as much to a program as jumps do, maybe even more so IMO?

    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FS_Scores.pdf

    The truth is when skaters perform jumps of average height with less flow as than a superior jumper, they receive lower GOE and rightfully so. I contend the same standard should apply to spins. In other words, level 4 and positive GOE are achieved much easier by an average spinner maybe even a weak spinner than in relation to a strong and weak jumper. By that I mean a superior jumper receives superior marks while superior spinners gain much less of an advantage over the competition that perform rather average spins. Does that seem fair?

    Do you prefer Jumps to spins?
    Are spins more artistic than jumps?
    Is it fair to include spins when judges factor PCS marks and which ones?
    Are Spins over scored?
    Do spins promote originality that jumps can't?

    I have nothing against Mao and just chose her 3a as a good example with no grudge in mind. I thought about pointing out bad spinners who receive less than one point less than Gracie and Yulia's spins but didn't feel it necessary.

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    Yes, i prefer jumps to spins. A lot of times the best spins are done from the youngs because their bodys have the flexibility, not because the skater is much more skilled. I used to like the spins more under 6 as under COP. Now with all this contortionistic positions, many times the spins look rushed, slow, strange and ugly. I hate these 10 time position change.

    I don't know if they are overscored or not, i don't have the points in head.

    I don't think that at the moment they bring too much originality, as the base-position is same to a lot of skaters, just one hand there, the foot a little bit higher or lower... IMO this is not quite much originality and exactly the position changing requirement kills it.

    I have a couple of skaters i adored for their spins, like Lambiel and Sarah Meier . One of my favorite skater, Kulik, had the most awful spin i ever saw.

    So, for the skate program as a whole, spins are important, but just a part of it.

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    No, I don't think spins are underscored. Many skaters can do level 3/4 spins from their early teens it doesn't take as much ability to perform a level 3/4 spin compared to triple jumps. Also how often do you see skaters falling or getting -2/-3 GOE on spins compared to jumps? That doesn't mean level 4 spins can't be difficult especially if they have aesthetically pleasing positions and plenty of centred rotations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by aschiutza View Post
    Yes, i prefer jumps to spins. A lot of times the best spins are done from the youngs because their bodys have the flexibility, not because the skater is much more skilled.
    And there are health issues. "Mature" over-twenty skaters mostly have back problems because of the jumps they have exercised for more than a decade.

    The views of Eteri Tutberidzi might well change when Yulia grows older.

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    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    When looking at the protocols Mao's step sequence which is grueling is only worth .50 more than Yulia's perfect final spin. That doesn't seem fair either to Mao does it. Eteri herself said she was amazed by how Mao can do the hardest footwork and not tire.

    Still not sure it's fair to take away advantages the young ones have simply because older girls can't do it. I mean the older girls usually have a PCS advantage. Deserved or not. I just wish the field could be leveled some at times. Fairly of course!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post

    Still not sure it's fair to take away advantages the young ones have simply because older girls can't do it. I mean the older girls usually have a PCS advantage. Deserved or not. I just wish the field could be leveled some at times. Fairly of course!!

    Knowing the specifics of figure skating: as long as fair people know the right fair people, it can all fairly be done

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    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anna K. View Post
    And there are health issues. "Mature" over-twenty skaters mostly have back problems because of the jumps they have exercised for more than a decade.

    The views of Eteri Tutberidzi might well change when Yulia grows older.
    At the same time the spinners have issues too. Lucinda Ruh has dizzy spells and has only recently started to see her side effects dissipate. She actually thinks she had several mini concussions as a result. I really don't see Yulia going past next quad so she should avoid those issues.

    Jumps are exciting yes but to me spins are beautiful...not unlike a spiral. In fact Id go as far as to say the perfect combination of the danger of a jump and artistry of a spiral. The thing is, Yulia is proof that people outside of rink rats like me and dedicated fans like at this forum can be drawn in and become fans. I know a lot of people who are fans of FS because of Yulia's spins in Sochi and already expressed interest in attending an event even locally!!! It's clear to me that the appeal is there. Not sure if a 3lz-3t has the same impact.

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    I agree Yulia's spins are undervalued by some amount. This is partly because the top skaters with reputations are overscored on spins in general. Spins could maybe be worth more but there should be multiple ways to get big scores on them, not just do the contortionist positions. Just allow skaters who aren't as flexible to get the levels and points in other ways.

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    Size 7 Knife Boots Sam-Skwantch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarneAsada View Post
    I agree Yulia's spins are undervalued by some amount. This is partly because the top skaters with reputations are overscored on spins in general. Spins could maybe be worth more but there should be multiple ways to get big scores on them, not just do the contortionist positions. Just allow skaters who aren't as flexible to get the levels and points in other ways.
    I completely agree. I don't want Yulia alone to benefit from it but instead the entire sport. I can see how someone may not like her spins due to the contortionist aspect. But look at Gracie for example. She has beautiful fast rotating spins yet uses more classic poses. Everyone harps on the younger skaters SS but then turn blind eye all of a sudden to spin quality when duscussing the vets. Found this on another thread posted at the exact time I was posting here.

    Her spins are slow and the positions are pretty weak, but that's okay if she can get all of her levels.
    You can score in your TES with good footwork and have it reflected also in your SS. Where do they factor in spin quality in the PCS? Otherwise wouldn't Yulia and Gracie and Adelina have some more generous PCS scores.

    I don't want events to be decided based on prior reputation or before the first skater takes the ice. I think the young guns should be given weapons to compete with veterans who sometimes get quite generous scores based on artistic interpretation and not necessarily better talent. I guess it's on the eye of the beholder but I think spins are beautiful.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    At the same time the spinners have issues too. Lucinda Ruh has dizzy spells and has only recently started to see her side effects dissipate. She actually thinks she had several mini concussions as a result. I really don't see Yulia going past next quad so she should avoid those issues.

    Jumps are exciting yes but to me spins are beautiful...not unlike a spiral. In fact Id go as far as to say the perfect combination of the danger of a jump and artistry of a spiral. The thing is, Yulia is proof that people outside of rink rats like me and dedicated fans like at this forum can be drawn in and become fans. I know a lot of people who are fans of FS because of Yulia's spins in Sochi and already expressed interest in attending an event even locally!!! It's clear to me that the appeal is there. Not sure if a 3lz-3t has the same impact.

    Yulia's spin are very lovely, but i doubt that every skater's spins would draw attention of new public to FS.
    Maybe a 3Lz-3T don't draw attention but 3Axel from Mao does. Or 4-3 of many skaters back in time or 4-3-2 of Plushenko. They are expected and when they are not there is lacking something for the non-fan public. They expect to see athletic and big things and even when they are not able to make the difference between a 3Lz to a 3 Salcow, they will want to see much and bigger jumps.
    A good footwork, not only challenging in difficulty but working with the music will draw attention too. But when is not related with the music, it could be the most difficult in the world and it won't bring attention (to the non-fan public, that is).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam-Skwantch View Post
    At the same time the spinners have issues too. Lucinda Ruh has dizzy spells and has only recently started to see her side effects dissipate. She actually thinks she had several mini concussions as a result. I really don't see Yulia going past next quad so she should avoid those issues.
    What I actually meant was: skaters have back problems due to jumping and that keeps them from doing particular types of spins when they are older. It's not just so that flexibility goes away. In other sports and arts, it doesn't.
    Anyway, you're right that Yulia will still be young enough for the next 4 years.

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    I would say that in cop spin are already rewarded a lot more than in 6,0... if you see lots of skaters that haven't the hardest jumps (ie jason brown) or do not hav elots or goe on their jump elements (yulia herself) can make lots of points because of their superior spinning and often close the gap on the technical side with their competitor...

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    Her spins are the best, like it or not. If, for example, Ashley gets level 4 - then Yulia must get level...Just a higher level

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    I don't think they're undervalued... there is a lot more emphasis on positions/rotations/quality of execution. Points-wise, they could be worth a little bit more, but I'd not have a spin be worth more than a triple toe or triple salchow in terms of base value.

    Right now, a perfectly executed layback is worth the same as a triple salchow, which is about right. Skaters themselves value spins enough to incorporate levels and hold positions, so at least the scoring of spins from an athlete standpoint is valid enough to try to match the level requirements.

    Julia's spins are the best, and Tutberidze has a valid point that the discrepancy of her spins is minuscule in the grand scheme of things.... but then it could work the other way around for Lipnitskaia -- Kim's or Gold's 3Z+3T should be getting a +4 or +5 if Julia's is getting a +2 or +3.

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    If anything , they are over scored. Some are so slow that they should not even qualify as a spin.

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