Tuktamysheva: "I'm going to try the triple Axel and quad toe loop if I'm healthy"'

mskater93 said:

Ladies cannot do quads (by rule) in the SP.

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Really? What an odd rule!

^ It's the no fun, not now, not ever rule!

Components said:

BTW, there *is* such a thing as jumping too high.

High jumps are much harder to control than low jumps. This is a big deal for combinations, and is why a lot of skaters will jump lower when they're putting a jump in combination than if they're doing it as a solo jump. For a combination you have to be even MORE in control of the landing of the first jump to get the second one off - especially if it's a 3-3 or 4-3 combo.

Being able to control power, speed, effort is important in skating. Things *can* be overcooked.

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Not being able to control a jump =/= "jumping too high" being a problem. I refer to exhibit A (Midori Ito) and exhibit B (Tonya Harding when she was really trained) when I say that there is no such thing as "jumping too high".

There is such a thing as bad technique. I am not saying this applies to Tuktamysheva, I am saying that it exists and leads to many chronic injuries.

There is also such a thing as trying too hard. This also often leads to an inability to control a jump because you actually put yourself out of optimal position in the air by trying too hard on the takeoff. This will also lead to injury and inconsistency. As my coach often says "just let the blades do the work" when it comes to the jumps we are working on. I suspect Tuktamysheva has been going through this a bit as her body has changed from little girl to young woman in that she's trying to memorize how much effort is required for jumps when you aren't twig sized.

There is also the case of over training. This is what I believe has been the cause of many skaters' chronic injuries. Some coaches are better than others at working with their skaters to avoid over training/over use injuries. Mishin does not appear to be in the "better" category with regards to over training.

While Lipinski's jump technique was no where near as bad as Zhang, she did over torque her loop take offs and adding her "rotate first" technique to over training led to the end of her career. Her jumps were never big, she really relied on fast rotation (although, I will agree her jumps were bigger than Lipnitskaya's).

JayW said:

That is a huge Axel! But I am being evil here. she looked so skinny there. Her current body seems much chubbier, and she has to lose all those weight before she does it again.

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Gee, funny that. A 13 year old twig being skinnier than a 17 year old who has done what EVERY SINGLE WOMAN IN THE WORLD DOES DURING PUBERTY and put on weight?!?!?!? Gasp, shock, horror!



I would prefer for Liza to stay injury free rather than trying bigger jumps, but she at least has the technique base to try it (unlike some - yes, I'm looking at you, Lipnitskaya).

I am afraid even a lady lands a 4T in competition (unless other elements are also clean), the overall score would be higher. People would throw in the "circus" argument like when Siu/Han did a 2 footed 4throw,

Leonova is also trainning the 4T.. it´s possible she can get it... her 3T is massive!

All girls can to say whatever they want, I just will believe it when I see it, in competition, of course.

There is this surge of Russian girls talking about quads and more difficult jumps because all the girls have all the triples and that's not special anymore. Even talking or doing a practice one could benefit and distinguish.

Tuktamisheva only needs to skate clean. She doesn't need 3A or 4T. Russian federation should stop this because so many girls going to injure themselfs.

I only want to see Adelina's 4T. Because she is already olympic champion and 4T better than retirement. I remember 4S from Ando and Cohen (?!) but I don't remember 4T. If she lands, it is going to be first in ladies, isn't it?

elif said:

Tuktamisheva only needs to skate clean. She doesn't need 3A or 4T.

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Are you sure about that? What will distinguish clean Tuktamysheva from Sotnikova, Lipnitskaya, Pogorilaya and Radionova? They will all be eligible the next season. They have the same jumps, and it is five skaters fighting for one of the three spots at Europeans/Worlds. It will come to the point where they need to stand out. Either with extra special presentation (which none of them have at this moment), or with being super consistent (Lipnitskaya this season), or having something technically that the others don't have.

I'm getting kinda tired of all the Russian ladies throwing the words "Quad" and "3A" all over the place,

I get there's a lot of competition there,

But can't you like, Kinda "land" the jumping practice first just once?

I mean, I could go on the ice tomorrow and "practice" a quad …

I'd be happy to have a bunch of Quads and Axles in the ladies event though, Even though there'll be consequences

Miki Ando is the only woman with a credited quad (sal). Although she could get some decent-looking landings they were for the most part underrotated. Surya Bonaly attempted the 4T but was way short of rotation. It was kind of funny that she didn't fall on it but started celebrating because she thought it was successful and then fell.

I really don't want to see women attempting quads. I'm sure that some do have the physical capacity to do them and technology such as dartfish would probably make training them more effective, but the wear and tear on the body is just too much. Even the men have a hard time handling the physical stress. I think it would be way better for Liza to work on jump consistency and other areas where she is deficient. She has charisma and the capacity to be an engaging performer and her shortcomings can for the most part be improved upon.

hanca said:

Are you sure about that? What will distinguish clean Tuktamysheva from Sotnikova, Lipnitskaya, Pogorilaya and Radionova? They will all be eligible the next season. They have the same jumps, and it is five skaters fighting for one of the three spots at Europeans/Worlds. It will come to the point where they need to stand out. Either with extra special presentation (which none of them have at this moment), or with being super consistent (Lipnitskaya this season), or having something technically that the others don't have.

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Tuktamisheva's jumps are more GOE friendly than Lipnitskaia and Radionova. Lipnitskaia and Radionova's 2As are low, barely getting GOE, Lipnitskaia have flutz, Radionova doesn't really have three jump combination (only half loop) For example Radionova skated perfect in NHK 2013 (7 triple and everything else level4) and only got 67 TES. So we have Sotnikova, Pogorilaya and Tuktamisheva. They are good, high jumpers. Russia have three spots. If Tuktamisheva wants to be in worlds team, she needs to improve spins and PCS, not jumps. Her jumps (when she lands them) better than Julia/Elena.

jennyanydots said:

Miki Ando is the only woman with a credited quad (sal). Although she could get some decent-looking landings they were for the most part underrotated. Surya Bonaly attempted the 4T but was way short of rotation. It was kind of funny that she didn't fall on it but started celebrating because she thought it was successful and then fell.

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Just looking at my picture, you can tell I really like Surya, (despite severely lacking in the artistry department) but that was the funniest thing i've seen regarding a FS fall. It came out of nowhere, and hearing the gasp coming from the audiences had me busting my gut from laughing so hard.

mskater93 said:

Not being able to control a jump =/= "jumping too high" being a problem. I refer to exhibit A (Midori Ito) and exhibit B (Tonya Harding when she was really trained) when I say that there is no such thing as "jumping too high".

There is such a thing as bad technique. I am not saying this applies to Tuktamysheva, I am saying that it exists and leads to many chronic injuries.

There is also such a thing as trying too hard. This also often leads to an inability to control a jump because you actually put yourself out of optimal position in the air by trying too hard on the takeoff. This will also lead to injury and inconsistency. As my coach often says "just let the blades do the work" when it comes to the jumps we are working on. I suspect Tuktamysheva has been going through this a bit as her body has changed from little girl to young woman in that she's trying to memorize how much effort is required for jumps when you aren't twig sized.

There is also the case of over training. This is what I believe has been the cause of many skaters' chronic injuries. Some coaches are better than others at working with their skaters to avoid over training/over use injuries. Mishin does not appear to be in the "better" category with regards to over training.

While Lipinski's jump technique was no where near as bad as Zhang, she did over torque her loop take offs and adding her "rotate first" technique to over training led to the end of her career. Her jumps were never big, she really relied on fast rotation (although, I will agree her jumps were bigger than Lipnitskaya's).

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1. There is such a thing as jumping too high. Being capable of jumping high does not mean you should be doing big jumps all the time. The jump is harder to control. This is physics and yes it's directly related to the ease at which a jump landing can be managed and controlled. This is especially true for jump combos and this is why in a combo most skaters will jump smaller than if they were doing the jump by itself - especially when first learning it.

2. Lipinski did not overtorque her Triple Loop. Her Loop technique was fantastic and no she didn't need to jump higher because she was a fast rotator. Lipinski did not *rely* on her fast rotations. She worked with it. If she jumped as high as Slutskaya everything she did would have been a Quad. When you rotate that fast you simply do NOT jump higher than you need to to get the Triple around, unless you want to faceplant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVQe8r0LQYE

Look at her Triple Loop Triple Loop. The arms are in front of her when she's pivoting into the take-off and she's riding the edge smoothly into the jump. And she does the same thing after the landing and into the second triple loop. Her technique on that jump was pretty much textbook. Almost everyone positions themselves similarly going into the jump (cause you have to be on the back edge and that is hard to do with a "squared" stance), but what Tara does wasn't even in the same category as what Zhang and some other skaters do to whip that jump around. Tara basically jumps up into the jump and rotates, the entire jump combination looks relaxed. She isn't torqueing into the jump or trying to force the rotations at all. She was a good rotator. The 97 WC Qualifying Combo in that video is probably the most textbook 3Lo3Lo ever done in competition, followed closely by the Nagano combo.

Nothing about her loop jump screams "injury" and in fact she kept doing the loop consistently after she retired. I'd say overtraining had much more to do with her hip issues than her basically flawless loop jump technique. There is no torqueing, at all.

Tanya harding did have issues with controlling her landings. Her triple axels were launched way too high often which caused her to go off axis for the landing when a smaller jump would have been fully rotated but not leaning as much. On one of her landing triple axels she commented that the jump was higher than she expected so she had more trouble controlling it. Michelle Kwan also made similar comments about jumps that were "bigger" than she expected. So no, your exhibit doesn't prove your point. It reinforces mine :-(

elif said:

Tuktamisheva only needs to skate clean. She doesn't need 3A or 4T. Russian federation should stop this because so many girls going to injure themselfs.

I only want to see Adelina's 4T. Because she is already olympic champion and 4T better than retirement. I remember 4S from Ando and Cohen (?!) but I don't remember 4T. If she lands, it is going to be first in ladies, isn't it?

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Surya Bonaly did one that was almost clean back in the 90s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCW5eHCWsbw

Amazing that she trained those for like 7 years or so. Wow!

I only wish she had worked more on her Skating skills. With a bit more consistency later in her career and better edging she could have been on the Podium in Lillehammer or Nagano.

elif said:

Tuktamisheva's jumps are more GOE friendly than Lipnitskaia and Radionova. Lipnitskaia and Radionova's 2As are low, barely getting GOE, Lipnitskaia have flutz, Radionova doesn't really have three jump combination (only half loop) For example Radionova skated perfect in NHK 2013 (7 triple and everything else level4) and only got 67 TES. So we have Sotnikova, Pogorilaya and Tuktamisheva. They are good, high jumpers. Russia have three spots. If Tuktamisheva wants to be in worlds team, she needs to improve spins and PCS, not jumps. Her jumps (when she lands them) better than Julia/Elena.

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True, but then again Radionova and Lipnitskaya are way more consistent than Tuktamysheva has ever been. So her GOE friendly jumps are not going to help her if she is unable to skate two clean programs, whereas Radionova and Lipnitskaya had the majority programs clean throughout the season. Why do you think Tuktamysheva placed so low at the nationals? Consistency is not her strength.

elif said:

Tuktamisheva's jumps are more GOE friendly than Lipnitskaia and Radionova. Lipnitskaia and Radionova's 2As are low, barely getting GOE, Lipnitskaia have flutz, Radionova doesn't really have three jump combination (only half loop) For example Radionova skated perfect in NHK 2013 (7 triple and everything else level4) and only got 67 TES. So we have Sotnikova, Pogorilaya and Tuktamisheva. They are good, high jumpers. Russia have three spots. If Tuktamisheva wants to be in worlds team, she needs to improve spins and PCS, not jumps. Her jumps (when she lands them) better than Julia/Elena.

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Radionova should out-GOE Tuktamysheva on most of their jumps. Her jumps are really good. Liza has bigger jumps, but these girls simply look better doing them (Landing position, run-out) and they're doing them in more difficult ways, which is what the IJS calls for and they do them in more difficult ways than Liza does her jumps (which are often telegraphed). Also, Liza's triple flip is... simply not a good jump for her... Good jumps are more than just "big" jumps.

In any case it's not the jumps that will hurt her moving forward, it's her Skating Skills, Lack of Transitions, and comparatively weak spinning. Welcome the era of +3 GOE spins, Ladies and Gentlemen. They matter, a lot. Losing 4+ points on spins between the SP and FS (compared to the great spinners in the field these days) can be the difference in getting a medal and landing in 6th place.

Across SP/FS skaters like Lipnitskaya, Sotnikova, Radionova can rack up like a 3-4 point advantage over Tuktamysheva just with their spins. 3-4 points may sound like not a lot, it's a sizeable advantage.

Components said:

In any case it's not the jumps that will hurt her moving forward, it's her Skating Skills, Lack of Transitions, and comparatively weak spinning. Welcome the era of +3 GOE spins, Ladies and Gentlemen. They matter, a lot. Losing 4+ points on spins between the SP and FS (compared to the great spinners in the field these days) can be the difference in getting a medal and landing in 6th place.

Across SP/FS skaters like Lipnitskaya, Sotnikova, Radionova can rack up like a 3-4 point advantage over Tuktamysheva just with their spins. 3-4 points may sound like not a lot, it's a sizeable advantage.

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Tuks biggest nemesis will be her weak spins, skating skills, transition, (her PCS needs a make over), consistency and 3 Flip which is unreliable jump for her

Components said:

2. Lipinski did not overtorque her Triple Loop. Her Loop technique was fantastic and no she didn't need to jump higher because she was a fast rotator. Lipinski did not *rely* on her fast rotations. She worked with it. If she jumped as high as Slutskaya everything she did would have been a Quad. When you rotate that fast you simply do NOT jump higher than you need to to get the Triple around, unless you want to faceplant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rVQe8r0LQYE

Look at her Triple Loop Triple Loop. The arms are in front of her when she's pivoting into the take-off and she's riding the edge smoothly into the jump. And she does the same thing after the landing and into the second triple loop. Her technique on that jump was pretty much textbook. Almost everyone positions themselves similarly going into the jump (cause you have to be on the back edge and that is hard to do with a "squared" stance), but what Tara does wasn't even in the same category as what Zhang and some other skaters do to whip that jump around. Tara basically jumps up into the jump and rotates, the entire jump combination looks relaxed. She isn't torqueing into the jump or trying to force the rotations at all. She was a good rotator. The 97 WC Qualifying Combo in that video is probably the most textbook 3Lo3Lo ever done in competition, followed closely by the Nagano combo.

Nothing about her loop jump screams "injury" and in fact she kept doing the loop consistently after she retired. I'd say overtraining had much more to do with her hip issues than her basically flawless loop jump technique. There is no torqueing, at all. (

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Thanks very much for this analysis. I have never paid a lot of attention to Tara's skating technique because I loved Michelle so much, and I'm just not very adept at analyzing the fine points of jumps to begin with. So it's very helpful for me to be able to understand what it was about Tara's skating that was so compelling.

I'm glad to hear that she was so sound in her approach to this jump. I'm also glad to know on general principles that it wasn't her technique that probably caused or aggravated her injury but rather her overtraining. I like to know that skaters can develop solid technical jumps that will carry them through a career and won't automatically damage them. Certainly Plushenko and Kulik maintained their jumps for years and years (despite his injury, Plushenko even managed a few gorgeous quads in the team competition), but it's especially reassuring to see it in a female skater.

As for Surya, though I disliked her basic skating skills (as most of us did), she had an undeniable personal presence that makes one regret that her training was not more stringent in terms of bladework and so on. Wouldn't it have been grand if she had had someone of the likes of her rival Yuka Sato's father/coach in her life?