Tuktamysheva: "I'm going to try the triple Axel and quad toe loop if I'm healthy"'

Components said:

The 97 WC Qualifying Combo in that video is probably the most textbook 3Lo3Lo ever done in competition, followed closely by the Nagano combo.

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No jump that is so small can possibly be textbook. The technique was not perfect either. She does start pulling very quickly rather than jumping up and then rotating. That's the only way you can possibly rotate a jump with such little height. But yes it was commendable.

As for the Russian girls doing quads, I highly doubt it. Sotnikova may be able to get the height, but she probably doesn't have enough control on the air position to do a quad.

I'm surprised that more girls haven't already been heavily training the Triple Axel, though. Ever since the post-2010 rule changes, it has been an extremely valuable element for the SP.

Components said:

Surya Bonaly did one that was almost clean back in the 90s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCW5eHCWsbw

Amazing that she trained those for like 7 years or so. Wow!

I only wish she had worked more on her Skating skills. With a bit more consistency later in her career and better edging she could have been on the Podium in Lillehammer or Nagano.

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Not in Nagano. Her Achilles injury was far too bad. Everyone has this fantasy of bonaly that she dumps her mother and moves to America and frank Carroll coaches her to a world title. It wasn't ever happening!!!

Her achilles was injured because or her lacking skating skills and constant jump attempts without the right technique. She was non-stop trying Quads and Triple-Triples that were way short on rotation, which breaks your body down because of all the torque being absorbed. Who knows how good her basic skating might have become, but with better coaching (let's say equivalent to Yuka Sato in the same time period) she surely would have fared better and likely would be an Olympic champ.

Blades of Passion said:

Her achilles was injured because or her lacking skating skills and constant jump attempts without the right technique. She was non-stop trying Quads and Triple-Triples that were way short on rotation, which breaks your body down because of all the torque being absorbed. Who knows how good her basic skating might have become, but with better coaching (let's say equivalent to Yuka Sato in the same time period) she surely would have fared better and likely would be an Olympic champ.

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But it doesn't matter because the fantasy career of bonaly was never happening!! She tried being coached by frank Carroll and it didn't work because of her mother! The only way bonaly becomes world Olympic champ is complete divorce from her mother and she chose never to do that! I also thought the previous post meant something different for Nagano but between lillehamer and Nagano there was the fantasy change! She becomes the skater who divorced her mother and stops training jumps like quads and focuses like a laser on skating skills but she also chose never to do that!!

So many exclamation points.

Blades of Passion said:

So many exclamation points.

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I feel very strongly about bonaly and her career!!!! People talk about the whole thing like she wasn't doing exactly what she wanted to do!!!

It's hard to imagine Tuktamysheva being any sort of legitimate thread going forward. She had sass, but that was really her only redeeming quality. Her skating skills are generally ugly, she looks about 15 years older than she is and she clearly headcases whenever she competes. Hopefully her injuries will subside so she can improve somewhat but, overall, she's really not a great skater and doesn't look like she'll ever be a top contender.

Blades of Passion said:

No jump that is so small can possibly be textbook. The technique was not perfect either. She does start pulling very quickly rather than jumping up and then rotating. That's the only way you can possibly rotate a jump with such little height. But yes it was commendable.

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This can't even be taken seriously.

She rotates the jump because she pulls is super right and rotates fast.

I've seen smaller IJS-clean Triple Loops.

gmyers said:

But it doesn't matter because the fantasy career of bonaly was never happening!! She tried being coached by frank Carroll and it didn't work because of her mother! The only way bonaly becomes world Olympic champ is complete divorce from her mother and she chose never to do that! I also thought the previous post meant something different for Nagano but between lillehamer and Nagano there was the fantasy change! She becomes the skater who divorced her mother and stops training jumps like quads and focuses like a laser on skating skills but she also chose never to do that!!

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That's not the point.

The point is that Bonaly lacking a coach/federation to reign her and her mother in was a major factor in her never winning a world medal and never winning an Olympics.

The judges simply were not going to give an Olympic Medal or World Championship Title to a skater that didn't know how to actually skate on figure skates. Yes, she could skate around, but she had no concept of edgework and she'd trip just stroking across the ice.

Her 1993 WC FS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL2Jlg-O_lU

There is not much to knock off her jumping. All of her jumps are off the right edges (though the first toe loop (in sequence) is a bit flat). However, her lacking skating skills were just too glaring. One big glaring sign of that is her overuse of forward crossovers. Because her basics were so bad, she had trouble generating speed off her backcrossovers (you can clearly see that she does not get much power from each push), and skaters that have this issue tend to use a lot more forward crossovers in their skating cause it's easier for them to get speed from them than the backward crossovers (it's also easier to skate more balanced forwards than backwards - when one side is weaker than another). In addition to that, almost falling doing basic edges/stroking, tons of toe pushing, a snow plow (after the swivel following her first Lutz) that looks like it's fresh out of basic skills.

I do think her spins were impressive in the early 90s. She could do almost endless combination spins with hop changes and multiple changes of foot and position. Lots of difficult variations with good speed.

She really needed a coach to reign her in and work on her basics, though, which would have by extension improved her jumping further (and probably made a Quad easier for her to get) which is the ironic part about her whole situation... She could have, theoretically, been very competitive by the time 1998 rolled around with a better post-Lillehammer game plan

I think her obsession on the Quad was just as much an obsession with not improving the other aspects of her skating to remain competitive :-( Unfortunately, even in 6.0, with a quad the judges would have still buried her - especially in the second mark. Bonaly was like the 90s-era Female version of Max Aaron.

Components said:

You don't know what you're talking about.

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Oh, but I do. Have you ever actually done a triple jump in your life?

The ideal technique is to jump, wait for a sliver of a second, and then bring your body in while actually moving core/shoulder slightly in the opposite direction of the rotation. You want to harness the full power of the takeoff before increasing rotation speed and you want to nudge yourself slightly in the opposite direction because that is what "snaps" the jump (the laws of physics make this so - every action has an equal and opposite reaction). With Lipinski, that is happening ON the takeoff rather than after the takeoff. She definitely had better technique than Caroline Zhang, but it wasn't ideal.

Components said:

I've seen smaller IJS-clean Triple Loops.

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What does that have to do with good technique? It's not just about the rotation. Tiny jumps are inherently given less points, as stated by the -GOE guidelines.

I don't need a mechanics lesson from you.

Women often have less lift before pulling into their jumps than men, because they usually don't jump as high and often rotate faster. This is clear to see if you do even an elementary analysis on the triple jumps of elite skaters (male and female, to actually understand the difference). This is why most women will use more pivot into the take-off of their jumps than men will. There are exceptions, but what I say is common.

Blades of Passion said:

What does that have to do with good technique? It's not just about the rotation. Tiny jumps are inherently given less points, as stated by the -GOE guidelines.

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A judge will not deduct Tara Lipinski for height on her jumps because it's simply illogical (really mean: stupid) to expect Tara to jump like Slutskaya. A judge may, however give Slutskaya +GOE for the height and distance on her jumps because it was impressive and went above and beyond what you'd expect a girl of her size to put out there. IRT Tara, one simply cannot expect the same size jumps from a girl that small and that light compared to the other. It's simply a matter of physics. Some of Tara's jumps weren't much smaller than Michelle Kwan's, including the first Triple Loop in that combination (Second jumps in combos are often, but not always, smaller than the first - especially if it's an edge jump).

It makes no sense. For her size, Tara's jumps were fine. People are really overstating how "small" her jumps actually were because they are comparing jump sizes in a vacuum with no scientific basis and really removing the skaters themselves from the observation, which causes the comparison to be heavily skewed.

The deduction for poor height, distance, and rotation was not design to punish smaller/slighter skaters or even female (compared to male) skaters for having inherently smaller jumps than larger/stronger skaters. Usually if a skater is getting that deduction the height and distance is more of a symptom of a different issue (Muscled, whippy jumps, no speed going into the jump, etc.) and therefore will have other issues that merit practically the same (or more severe) deduction (like a crappy air position, under rotation, etc.).

This isn't about the jumps I've done and it isn't a pissing contest so let's not go there.

What you said makes no sense, and the idea that you're trying to peddle (that all skaters with smaller jumps inherently are given less points simply because of their size with nothing else taken into account) is ridiculous.

It's not about the rotation, but when discussing Yagudin's jumps (which would certainly merit the deduction you bring up, BTW, cause his air position was atrocious), size was everything and he was one of the best jumpers despite having clear issues with jump technique that I pointed out? Her jump sizes was fine. She had some of the best technique on the loop jump in the business, which is why she was so good at putting them in combination, hardly ever had issues rotating them, and rarely ever failed them.

My jumps are 3-4x the size of some of the girls at my rink. There is literally nothing they can do to change that, except grow up more or gain some weight. They simply aren't built or equipped biologically to create the same size jumps. No amount of technical prowess will change that. They simply don't have the weight and power to create the same amount of energy (i.e. inertia) to convert up into the jump. However, their advantage is that they are very slight and can rotate much easily (and get into their rotations faster) than I can, so while I can jump higher, I require that extra height just to get the jumps around. They can still rotate their jumps with less height, because their rotations are much more efficient.

Components said:

A judge will not deduct Tara Lipinski for height on her jumps

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In 1998, no. Her jumps were okay by then.

Components said:

It makes no sense. For her size, Tara's jumps were fine.

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Your size has nothing to do with it. It's about the jump itself. Everyone has different talents and if you're small and can't jump high, that's just how it goes. You are lacking in a certain area that is scored.

Components said:

Yagudin's jumps would certainly merit the deduction, cause his air position was atrocious.

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We've entered the twilight zone!

Blades of Passion said:

In 1998, no. Her jumps were okay by then.



Your size has nothing to do with it. It's about the jump itself. Everyone has different talents and if you're small and can't jump high, that's just how it goes. You are lacking in a certain area that is scored.



We've entered the twilight zone!

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Yes, the size of the skater should be accounted for when looking at the size of jumps. Like I said, it's illogical to expect a skater that is 4'10" 79lbs to produce jumps as big as a skater who is 5'2" 110". Does it happen, perhaps. If the smaller skater is some sort of phenom or the bigger skater is just NOT a good jumper... Talent levels and technical prowess across skaters are rarely equivalent, so that's always a variable.

However, to look a the jump height in a vacuum and penalize the smaller skater because she cannot defy the laws of physics is discriminatingly unfair to that skater.

And regarding Yagudin, do I need to link the screen caps for you (again?). His air position was terrible, and his jumps were muscled. This is easy to see, even in real time. We can start a thread to analyze his jumps if you want. That would be fun, but you would lose that argument - easily and quickly.

Components said:

Yes, the size of the skater should be accounted for when looking at the size of jumps. Like I said, it's illogical to expect a skater that is 4'10" 79lbs to produce jumps as big as a skater who is 5'2" 110".

However, to look a the jump height in a vacuum and penalize the smaller skater because she cannot defy the laws of physics is discriminatingly unfair to that skater.

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Everyone has a different body. Not everyone can be a pro basketball player. Not everyone can be a pro gymnast. Not everyone can be a pro soccer player. There are NO exceptions made in sport for someone not being able to do something because their body doesn't allow it (except when comparing Men vs Women, which is why most pro sports are separated in that manner).

Components said:

And regarding Yagudin, do I need to link the screen caps for you (again?). His air position was terrible, and his jumps were muscled. This is easy to see, even in real time. We can start a thread to analyze his jumps if you want. That would be fun, but you would lose that argument - easily and quickly.

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This is not Vern Taylor. Yagudin's air position is not terrible at all. I would agree with you that his Quad was not ideal. For the rest, no. His jumps are not tilted, they are big, they completely finish the rotation a foot above the ice, and they flow out on the landing. That is ideal jumping.

Blades of Passion said:

Her achilles was injured because or her lacking skating skills and constant jump attempts without the right technique. She was non-stop trying Quads and Triple-Triples that were way short on rotation, which breaks your body down because of all the torque being absorbed. Who knows how good her basic skating might have become, but with better coaching (let's say equivalent to Yuka Sato in the same time period) she surely would have fared better and likely would be an Olympic champ.

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Yes, this is the sad part of Surya's story. The person who wanted the most for her, her mother, probably did her the greatest harm by allowing such a vacuum in her coaching. You and I mention Yuka Sato specifically not just because they were direct rivals (especially in 1994) but because of the stark differences in their skating. I remember an American commentator pointing out, with cameras focused on each lady's legs and feet, how Yuka's skating featured so many deft shifts in direction and used so much one-footed skating (sorry if that's the wrong terminology, but you know what I mean) and how Surya usually was skating two-footed and had almost no variation. She was just moving herself from here to there between jumps. Her spins were inventive because she was so limber, having been a competitive tumbler, but she couldn't back them up with superior skating skills. Really too bad; she was a very appealing person and clearly a determined competitor.

Components said:

That's not the point.

The point is that Bonaly lacking a coach/federation to reign her and her mother in was a major factor in her never winning a world medal and never winning an Olympics.

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I agree with most all of your post, but Bonaly actually has 3 world medals, all silver While she clearly did not achieve what she hoped to in her career, or what she could have with a better coaching situation and much greater focus on both skating skills and artistry, her competitive record is actually far from shabby from an objective perspective. She has 3 world medals, 5 European gold medals, and a European silver. Most skaters would kill for such a career.

Blades of Passion said:

Everyone has a different body. Not everyone can be a pro basketball player. Not everyone can be a pro gymnast. Not everyone can be a pro soccer player. There are NO exceptions made in sport for someone not being able to do something because their body doesn't allow it (except when comparing Men vs Women, which is why most pro sports are separated in that manner).



This is not Vern Taylor. Yagudin's air position is not terrible at all. I would agree with you that his Quad was not ideal. For the rest, no. His jumps are not tilted, they are big, they completely finish the rotation a foot above the ice, and they flow out on the landing. That is ideal jumping.

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Muscled jumps and a bad air position is not "ideal jumping."

Yagudin did that on his triple toe loop as well, as well as his triple lutz and other triples. Again, it's viewable in real time.

His triple toe loop was performed in largely the same manner as his quadruple, so it's a bit odd that his quad was not ideal while his triples were...

His triple axel was ideal (barring aspects of his air position, but it was much less muscled), and that's about it.

tulosai said:

I agree with most all of your post, but Bonaly actually has 3 world medals, all silver While she clearly did not achieve what she hoped to in her career, or what she could have with a better coaching situation and much greater focus on both skating skills and artistry, her competitive record is actually far from shabby from an objective perspective. She has 3 world medals, 5 European gold medals, and a European silver. Most skaters would kill for such a career.

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I meant a world Title. As in, a World Medal that is GOLD in color. Sorry for the typo.

Components said:

That's not the point.

The point is that Bonaly lacking a coach/federation to reign her and her mother in was a major factor in her never winning a world medal and never winning an Olympics.

The judges simply were not going to give an Olympic Medal or World Championship Title to a skater that didn't know how to actually skate on figure skates. Yes, she could skate around, but she had no concept of edgework and she'd trip just stroking across the ice.

Her 1993 WC FS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL2Jlg-O_lU

There is not much to knock off her jumping. All of her jumps are off the right edges (though the first toe loop (in sequence) is a bit flat). However, her lacking skating skills were just too glaring. One big glaring sign of that is her overuse of forward crossovers. Because her basics were so bad, she had trouble generating speed off her backcrossovers (you can clearly see that she does not get much power from each push), and skaters that have this issue tend to use a lot more forward crossovers in their skating cause it's easier for them to get speed from them than the backward crossovers (it's also easier to skate more balanced forwards than backwards - when one side is weaker than another). In addition to that, almost falling doing basic edges/stroking, tons of toe pushing, a snow plow (after the swivel following her first Lutz) that looks like it's fresh out of basic skills.

I do think her spins were impressive in the early 90s. She could do almost endless combination spins with hop changes and multiple changes of foot and position. Lots of difficult variations with good speed.

She really needed a coach to reign her in and work on her basics, though, which would have by extension improved her jumping further (and probably made a Quad easier for her to get) which is the ironic part about her whole situation... She could have, theoretically, been very competitive by the time 1998 rolled around with a better post-Lillehammer game plan

I think her obsession on the Quad was just as much an obsession with not improving the other aspects of her skating to remain competitive :-( Unfortunately, even in 6.0, with a quad the judges would have still buried her - especially in the second mark. Bonaly was like the 90s-era Female version of Max Aaron.

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I am not sure I know from this what the point i am missing is. Surya trained with frank Carroll. She left. She chose to train with her mother. Her mother allowed her to train what her favorite thing in skating was which was jumps. The idea you could have forced her to train with Carroll and restrict jumps and focus on skating skills would never have worked because it failed when it was tried. The skater who chose so brazenly and knowingly broke the rules when she did a backflip in Nagano hated the Yuka sato view of skating. Stojko won a world title being a male surya. He was definitely a skater who could skate though but was still criticized for neglecting all that and having no artistry. But having no artistry didn't mean having no style. He was able to win world titles. The fantasy career of surya's where she becomes sato was never ever happening ever. Her Achilles injury took away from her ability to do what was her favorite stuff and that ended her title and medal opportunities but she still had stuff to deliver on the ice.

gmyers said:

I am not sure I know from this what the point i am missing is. Surya trained with frank Carroll. She left. She chose to train with her mother.

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That's irrelevant. We're talking about if Surya had being given proper training from the time she was a KID. Not leaving her home country well into her career and feeling uncomfortable with her surroundings.