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Thread: Tuktamysheva: "I'm going to try the triple Axel and quad toe loop if I'm healthy"'

  1. #76
    Spiral Lover tulosai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    That's not the point.

    The point is that Bonaly lacking a coach/federation to reign her and her mother in was a major factor in her never winning a world medal and never winning an Olympics.
    I agree with most all of your post, but Bonaly actually has 3 world medals, all silver While she clearly did not achieve what she hoped to in her career, or what she could have with a better coaching situation and much greater focus on both skating skills and artistry, her competitive record is actually far from shabby from an objective perspective. She has 3 world medals, 5 European gold medals, and a European silver. Most skaters would kill for such a career.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Everyone has a different body. Not everyone can be a pro basketball player. Not everyone can be a pro gymnast. Not everyone can be a pro soccer player. There are NO exceptions made in sport for someone not being able to do something because their body doesn't allow it (except when comparing Men vs Women, which is why most pro sports are separated in that manner).



    This is not Vern Taylor. Yagudin's air position is not terrible at all. I would agree with you that his Quad was not ideal. For the rest, no. His jumps are not tilted, they are big, they completely finish the rotation a foot above the ice, and they flow out on the landing. That is ideal jumping.
    Muscled jumps and a bad air position is not "ideal jumping."

    Yagudin did that on his triple toe loop as well, as well as his triple lutz and other triples. Again, it's viewable in real time.

    His triple toe loop was performed in largely the same manner as his quadruple, so it's a bit odd that his quad was not ideal while his triples were...

    His triple axel was ideal (barring aspects of his air position, but it was much less muscled), and that's about it.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by tulosai View Post
    I agree with most all of your post, but Bonaly actually has 3 world medals, all silver While she clearly did not achieve what she hoped to in her career, or what she could have with a better coaching situation and much greater focus on both skating skills and artistry, her competitive record is actually far from shabby from an objective perspective. She has 3 world medals, 5 European gold medals, and a European silver. Most skaters would kill for such a career.
    I meant a world Title. As in, a World Medal that is GOLD in color. Sorry for the typo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    That's not the point.

    The point is that Bonaly lacking a coach/federation to reign her and her mother in was a major factor in her never winning a world medal and never winning an Olympics.

    The judges simply were not going to give an Olympic Medal or World Championship Title to a skater that didn't know how to actually skate on figure skates. Yes, she could skate around, but she had no concept of edgework and she'd trip just stroking across the ice.

    Her 1993 WC FS: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL2Jlg-O_lU

    There is not much to knock off her jumping. All of her jumps are off the right edges (though the first toe loop (in sequence) is a bit flat). However, her lacking skating skills were just too glaring. One big glaring sign of that is her overuse of forward crossovers. Because her basics were so bad, she had trouble generating speed off her backcrossovers (you can clearly see that she does not get much power from each push), and skaters that have this issue tend to use a lot more forward crossovers in their skating cause it's easier for them to get speed from them than the backward crossovers (it's also easier to skate more balanced forwards than backwards - when one side is weaker than another). In addition to that, almost falling doing basic edges/stroking, tons of toe pushing, a snow plow (after the swivel following her first Lutz) that looks like it's fresh out of basic skills.

    I do think her spins were impressive in the early 90s. She could do almost endless combination spins with hop changes and multiple changes of foot and position. Lots of difficult variations with good speed.

    She really needed a coach to reign her in and work on her basics, though, which would have by extension improved her jumping further (and probably made a Quad easier for her to get) which is the ironic part about her whole situation... She could have, theoretically, been very competitive by the time 1998 rolled around with a better post-Lillehammer game plan :-)

    I think her obsession on the Quad was just as much an obsession with not improving the other aspects of her skating to remain competitive :-( Unfortunately, even in 6.0, with a quad the judges would have still buried her - especially in the second mark. Bonaly was like the 90s-era Female version of Max Aaron.
    I am not sure I know from this what the point i am missing is. Surya trained with frank Carroll. She left. She chose to train with her mother. Her mother allowed her to train what her favorite thing in skating was which was jumps. The idea you could have forced her to train with Carroll and restrict jumps and focus on skating skills would never have worked because it failed when it was tried. The skater who chose so brazenly and knowingly broke the rules when she did a backflip in Nagano hated the Yuka sato view of skating. Stojko won a world title being a male surya. He was definitely a skater who could skate though but was still criticized for neglecting all that and having no artistry. But having no artistry didn't mean having no style. He was able to win world titles. The fantasy career of surya's where she becomes sato was never ever happening ever. Her Achilles injury took away from her ability to do what was her favorite stuff and that ended her title and medal opportunities but she still had stuff to deliver on the ice.

  5. #80
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    I am not sure I know from this what the point i am missing is. Surya trained with frank Carroll. She left. She chose to train with her mother.
    That's irrelevant. We're talking about if Surya had being given proper training from the time she was a KID. Not leaving her home country well into her career and feeling uncomfortable with her surroundings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    That's irrelevant. We're talking about if Surya had being given proper training from the time she was a KID. Not leaving her home country well into her career and feeling uncomfortable with her surroundings.
    She was a tumbler? She got into skating late anyway and for jumps. This fantasy surya was just never happening. You couldn't even have surya as she was without the tumbling and jumping focus. You have sato! Be happy with sato. Bonaly was never ever going to be a sato! Never cared to be. You absolutely could not have had her as a child doing what was necessary for good skating skills. It wasn't ever going to happen.

  7. #82
    Best comeback EVOR! zamboni step's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    She was a tumbler? She got into skating late anyway and for jumps. This fantasy surya was just never happening. You couldn't even have surya as she was without the tumbling and jumping focus. You have sato! Be happy with sato. Bonaly was never ever going to be a sato! Never cared to be. You absolutely could not have had her as a child doing what was necessary for good skating skills. It wasn't ever going to happen.
    It's a hypothetical situation, there's nothing wrong with speculation as long as you don't let it alter your view of her actual skating.

  8. #83
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Components View Post
    Muscled jumps and a bad air position is not "ideal jumping."
    He doesn't have bad air position most of the time and his jumps were not "muscled" in the way you would appear to state it. Muscling a jump means not having enough flow and strength from the edge to do the jump otherwise. The only opening takeoff that could be said about is his Quad and it was not all the time.

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    Girl, good luck, just don't wear your body out or hurt yourself!

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    Getting back to Tuk.... I have said this before..but I think she really needs to leave Mishin. His skaters do seem to sustain a lot of injuries, which I find concerning. Also, maybe a new coach and choreography could bring some new life to her skating. Perhaps she could train where Sotnikova, Radionova, and Proklova train (I believe they all train at the same facility but I could be wrong). That would maybe give her some extra motivation, as it seems to have done with other skaters recently.

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