Kanako Murakami's Future

Blades of Passion · Apr 10, 2014

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
As much as people want to whine that the tech panel is giving her unfair UR calls, if every panel is doing it and if she's getting many of them (including 2 URs called in her SP, and 6 URs called in her FS on home ice), you need to stop blaming the tech specialists who are consistently calling it as they see it.

But the problem is, tech panels "see it" wrong because they aren't trained properly. Since Murakami has odd technique, and they aren't actually scientifically measuring the rotation, they just throw a < at jumps that seem close or have some kind of waver on the landing.

NMURA said:
Anyway, I expect Miyahara will be the #1 in due course. Her technical problems are less obvious than Murakami.

Miyahara's problems are currently much worse than Murakami's. Her "3Lutz+3Toe" combination should frequently be getting called as 3Lutz< + 3Toe<<. However, yet again, the tech panels aren't paying close enough attention to where the takeoffs actually start. Miyahara pulls around REALLY far on her toepick during all of her takeoffs and often doesn't get punished for it.

CarneAsada · Apr 10, 2014

Blades of Passion said:
But the problem is, tech panels "see it" wrong because they aren't trained properly. Since Murakami has odd technique, and they aren't actually scientifically measuring the rotation, they just throw a < at jumps that seem close or have some kind of waver on the landing.

Do you think Murakami should attempt to fix her flutz and change her technique to a less unorthodox method? Her 3T-3T often gets called but I think it would get a pass more often if her other jumps didn't look so strange. We saw Asada rework her flip successfully and fail to fix her flutz, but she had to work on all 6 triples and tweak the 2A. Murakami would only need to work on 2 triples.

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
She really needs to focus on her technique. Needs to get stronger to get a bit more height and muscle around that extra rotation. As much as people want to whine that the tech panel is giving her unfair UR calls, if every panel is doing it and if she's getting many of them (including 2 URs called in her SP, and 6 URs called in her FS on home ice), you need to stop blaming the tech specialists who are consistently calling it as they see it and actually look to the skater.

It's not every panel that hammers her. Remember how she scored at 2014 4CC? I really don't think home ice matters that much when you're the #3 Japanese lady if you're getting your TES reduced by 20 points that stayed with you at your "away" competitions.

volk · Apr 10, 2014

CarneAsada said:
Do you think Murakami should attempt to fix her flutz and change her technique to a less unorthodox method? Her 3T-3T often gets called but I think it would get a pass more often if her other jumps didn't look so strange. We saw Asada rework her flip successfully and fail to fix her flutz, but she had to work on all 6 triples and tweak the 2A. Murakami would only need to work on 2 triples.

It would be unrealistic to change your jumping technique this late. Once you're past your junior days, it's difficult to unlearn things.

Blades of Passion · Apr 10, 2014

CarneAsada said:
Do you think Murakami should attempt to fix her flutz and change her technique to a less unorthodox method?

Of course she should attempt to fix the flutz, but after 4 years as a senior competitor it hasn't improved. I'm sure they must have tried to work on it. She just might not be able to do a real Triple Lutz. It's not an easy jump.

Taking baby steps to clean up her jumps would be good. An overhaul would surely be detrimental, though. I would focus on trying to curve her axel and toeloop around a little more on the takeoff (she actually doesn't get enough pre-rotation in these jumps a lot of the time) and trying to get the timing on the Triple Loop better between the lower body and upper body.

She should just stick to one Lutz and one Flip in the LP. Her layout earlier this season with two Triple Loops was really good. The 3Loop+2Loop that she was attempting last season was excellent as well. She got totally screwed over with < calls on that last season.

NMURA · Apr 11, 2014

Blades of Passion said:
Miyahara's problems are currently much worse than Murakami's. Her "3Lutz+3Toe" combination should frequently be getting called as 3Lutz< + 3Toe<<. However, yet again, the tech panels aren't paying close enough attention to where the takeoffs actually start. Miyahara pulls around REALLY far on her toepick during all of her takeoffs and often doesn't get punished for it.

I'm pretty sure Miyahara's 3Lz-3T is OK when she becomes the #1. They are on the borderline most of the time, not obviously UR'ed. A liittle "propping up" will fix the problem.

Murakami's flutz is one of the worst, practically impossible to fix it. Her base values are lower than Miyahara (4 points in total). Miyahara is more consistent and better in spins. Murakami is going on 20 years old. In a common sense, she has already passed the prime of her physical strength. Technically the choice is obvious. Miyahara will be able to compete with the top with a little of "propping up".

CanadianSkaterGuy · Apr 11, 2014

People need to stop enabling her saying the judges are trained improperly and they've got it wrong. Everyone is getting equally measured and if Kanako is getting so many UR calls for supposedly fully rotated jumps don't you think anyone else would get UR calls as much as she does? She needs to fix her technique, the judges aren't going to be any less critical of her.

Blades of Passion · Apr 11, 2014

NMURA said:
I'm pretty sure Miyahara's 3Lz-3T is OK when she becomes the #1.

Yes, your skating does magically become better as soon as you're the #1 of your nation. *sigh*

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Everyone is getting equally measured.

Oh come on now. And even if they were, the measuring stick would still have to be calibrated correctly.

YesWay · Apr 11, 2014

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
People need to stop enabling her saying the judges are trained improperly and they've got it wrong. Everyone is getting equally measured and if Kanako is getting so many UR calls for supposedly fully rotated jumps don't you think anyone else would get UR calls as much as she does? She needs to fix her technique, the judges aren't going to be any less critical of her.

I take your point, although I'm not entirely convinced that judges (tech panel) always makes the right calls, for whatever reason...!

And even if everything was fair and 100% objective (impossible), I also think there is more to it anyway. I think once a skater gets a reputation for under-rotation, they are subjected to more reviews and closer scrutiny by the technical panel, than other skaters... and at that point it becomes unfair:

It may mean that other skaters "get away with stuff" occasionally, whereas the one with a "reputation" never gets a break.

NMURA · Apr 11, 2014

Murakami has never been a talented jumper. She couldn't land fully rotated 3(f)lutzs and 3flips until 14 years old. She never attempted the 3loop when she was a junior. The flip is the most secure jump for her but the hammer toe looks ugly and hampering higher GOE. Even the 2A is prone to errors. For most of ladies, the age around 16-17 years old is the peak of jumping abilities. After that, their best efforts are centered on not losing jumps they already have. I'm very pessimistic about Murakami's jumps. It won't get any better than now.

GGoldberg · Apr 11, 2014

Kanako has such a delightful personality and energy when she performs well. I was particularly struck by how emotional she was at Japan Nationals this year. OBVIOUSLY the stress of needing to skate well to make the Japanese Olympic team was something bordering on unimaginable for any normal person, but still, that kind of stress, even when one gets through it as successfully as she did, can take its toll on someone. I hope she continues but the dynamics of going through life as a top skater in Japan are quite something.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Apr 11, 2014

YesWay said:
I take your point, although I'm not entirely convinced that judges (tech panel) always makes the right calls, for whatever reason...!

And even if everything was fair and 100% objective (impossible), I also think there is more to it anyway. I think once a skater gets a reputation for under-rotation, they are subjected to more reviews and closer scrutiny by the technical panel, than other skaters... and at that point it becomes unfair:

It may mean that other skaters "get away with stuff" occasionally, whereas the one with a "reputation" never gets a break.

They don't always make the right calls. However, when she wouldn't get hammered on so many URs on home ice if there weren't some legitimate problem. People can keep defending her and saying the Emperor's clothes look amazing, but they really need to admit that she's not giving tech specialists any reason not to call her URs.

Instead of whining that tech panels aren't giving her the benefit of the doubt, she should be working to remove doubt when it comes to how rotated her jumps actually are.

And saying the tech panels aren't properly trained is a useless point, as they're the ones judging the sport and not us, and BoP many of us disagree with your assessment of how jumps are rotated and not rotated and it's clear that you cut Murakami more slack than others. I think most of us agree that Murakami has a big tendency to UR her jumps, and the tech panels with their replays - which I, BoP, and none of us have access to - confirm this more definitively. As I said, there's no way Murakami would have gotten that many UR's called on home ice - likely the most she's ever received in a competition. Even if half of the 8 UR calls she received among the SP + LP were actually the wrong call, that's still 4 URs in a competition.

Blades of Passion · Apr 11, 2014

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
it's clear that you cut Murakami more slack than others.

LOL? No I don't. Why would I to begin with?

Keep talking all you want but the fact is tech panels DON'T analyze jumps properly. They just see a skid on the landing and it's automatically given a < if the jump wasn't clearly rotated all the way. They also often decide based upon the top of the toepick touching the ice, rather than the blade, and that is not correct (there isn't enough weight on the ice at that point for the jump to be considered "landed"). There needs to be a precise, universal standard that is applied and it needs to take into consideration the entirety of the jump.

pangtongfan · Apr 11, 2014

Blades of Passion said:
LOL? No I don't. Why would I to begin with?

Keep talking all you want but the fact is tech panels DON'T analyze jumps properly. They just see a skid on the landing and it's automatically given a < if the jump wasn't clearly rotated all the way. They also often decide based upon the top of the toepick touching the ice, rather than the blade, and that is not correct (there isn't enough weight on the ice at that point for the jump to be considered "landed"). There needs to be a precise, universal standard that is applied and it needs to take into consideration the entirety of the jump.

I concur with this. There needs to be better training on how to mark > properly.

Mathman · Apr 11, 2014

Blades of Passion said:
They also often decide based upon the top of the toepick touching the ice, rather than the blade, and that is not correct (there isn't enough weight on the ice at that point for the jump to be considered "landed").

Is there an actual rule about this, or are the technical specialists on their own? Would you say that Mirai Nagasu is an example of a skater who reaches down with her toe pick and so gets a lot of UR calls? What about Mao Asada?

Blades of Passion · Apr 11, 2014

Mathman said:
Is there an actual rule about this, or are the technical specialists on their own?

There is no rule. There are really no rules at all about measuring rotation! Tech specialists are only taught to look at landings and deduct if it is more than 1/4 short (or a full 1/2 short). But what does that actually mean, given that every jump exists within a circle? There are no specific qualifications about determining where a jump starts, where it lands, and how much rotation there should be. Some tech specialists have become more aware of the actual mechanics, but there is still no consistency. It's a huge disservice to the competitors and to the audiences. A scientific method MUST be taught and specifically laid-out in the rules.

Pepe Nero · Apr 12, 2014

Blades of Passion said:
I'd like to see her do a SP again with all 3 Triples in the second half of the program. She's still the only female to do that and it does help to set her apart.

Yes. (The same to the other things in your post, but this especially.)

nimi · Apr 12, 2014

Blades of Passion said:
There is no rule. There are really no rules at all about measuring rotation! Tech specialists are only taught to look at landings and deduct if it is more than 1/4 short (or a full 1/2 short). But what does that actually mean, given that every jump exists within a circle? There are no specific qualifications about determining where a jump starts, where it lands, and how much rotation there should be.

Really? That's... confusing.

Rubirosa · Apr 12, 2014

Blades of Passion said:
There is no rule. There are really no rules at all about measuring rotation! Tech specialists are only taught to look at landings and deduct if it is more than 1/4 short (or a full 1/2 short). But what does that actually mean, given that every jump exists within a circle? There are no specific qualifications about determining where a jump starts, where it lands, and how much rotation there should be. Some tech specialists have become more aware of the actual mechanics, but there is still no consistency. It's a huge disservice to the competitors and to the audiences. A scientific method MUST be taught and specifically laid-out in the rules.

Can the combo with the second Loop jump be ever ratified, based on what you said? :scratch:

FSGMT · Apr 12, 2014

Blades of Passion said:
I'd like to see her do a SP again with all 3 Triples in the second half of the program. She's still the only female to do that and it does help to set her apart.

I agree with you, but she's not

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=20mi0OXcKvY I really like programs which begin with steps/spins and leave the "exciting" section in the second half, too!

lady_bee · Apr 12, 2014

Sorry to interrupt your serious conversation.

Why don’t you just take a break?
https://twitter.com/nobutaro1001/status/452681149555306496/photo/1

I am really worried about if this picture could ruin Kanako’s future,
or could it open new window for her?

Kanako Murakami's Future

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