Define ''Choking'' Please?

soogar said:

Janna, Lendl had been competing and winning lots of non-Grand Slam Competitions since 1981 and always had a very high ranking. However prior to 1984, he had the monkey on his back that he was choker b/c he would make the finals at a Slam and then not win. He won French in 1984 (coming back from 2 sets down to Mac- maybe Mac choked) but didn't really hit his stride until the US Open 1985 and then he was very consistent.

Yeah , Lendl never won Wimbledon, but I wouldn't say that he choked because always lost to the player who wound up winning the whole thing and those matches were never close enough for it to be called choking. I mean, he was losing in 4 sets or so and never really had an advantage.

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Neither would I say that Lendl was really choking in Wimbledon, but our commentators always used to say as he was playing somewhere and perhaps winning, that he is a tennis player to have lots of other titles, but never that of Wimbledon champion. And I understand that he had won those players elsewhere that he lost to in Wimbledon? It was perhaps the grass courts which did not suit him.

Sorry about this OT, but could not help of answering because I used to follow tennis a lot starting in the times of Swedish player Björn Borg.

About defining choking I would say that something can be called choking if an athlete does not reach the result she/he is expected to reach (based on earlier competitions). On the other hand so many different matters with nothing to do with so-called choking can cause a loss for an athlete. I think that choking - although very descriptive - is not a nice word to use about an athlete if she/he is not winning or getting a medal. Besides, everybody is having off-days, what ever our work might be.

Marjaana

Sorry about this OT, but could not help of answering because I used to follow tennis a lot starting in the times of Swedish player Björn Borg. -- Marjaana

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Borg was the supreme anti-choker. Nothing ever phazed him and the greater the pressure, the cooler he got.

I also think that over the course of her career, Michelle has handled the pressure and managed her nerves better than almost anyone in the game.

Mathman

Maybe MK choked at 2002 Olympics. So did Sasha choke at 00 Nationals and jr. Worlds that year? And at 02 Olympics too?
And at 03 Nationals and Worlds? This list could go on and on.
It's mean to say someone choked.
I can't skate as good as MK, Sasha, or Sarah. They don't choke. they have a bad skate.

Fossi said:

It's mean to say someone choked. I can't skate as good as MK, Sasha, or Sarah. They don't choke. they have a bad skate.

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I agree 100%, Fossi. Whatever the dictionary says, when you say that someone chokes, or is a choker, it is almost always intended as a mean-spirited insult.

Mathman

Interesting thread...

Personally speaking, the very first (& I think only time I ever used the word "choke") was in relation to Angela Nikodinov just prior to 2002 U.S. Nationals (no lie). And it wasn't meant to be in a mean-spirited way......just stating a fact......and the truth as I saw it. I still feel that way about her ~ hoping for the best ~ but expecting the worst. Furthermore, she is the only skater I see as such (no lie).

In order to qualify for my definition of "choke", one must consistently be an underachiever when it comes time for competition. Also, practice has nothing to do with it (practice is just that - practice - nothing more nor nothing less). Furthermore, said skater may start off good (or bad) but from then on downgrades his/her jumps (doesn't even try), goes for doubles instead of triples (no pops, no falls, no attempt @ anything harder), skates with no fight nor spark (generally has on a deadpan expression), just goes through the motions, and has a defeatist attitude that is pretty easy to see from the get go. And of those that I just mentioned, the one thing that irritates me the most is the "no fight" quality, which defines someone that "chokes" IMHO.

***Note: btw there is no way that I would define someone whom comes back "fighting" as a "choker" - heck no - even if s/he makes a handful of mistakes, it will be obvious to the naked eye whom is a "fighter" as opposed to the opposite. Just take a look at the body language. JMHO.***

Lastly, I think the word "choke" or "choker" is used too commonly..........just b/c someone doesn't do good in one or a couple of competitons, oh my how quick the public is to use that word(s)...........no, IMHO one should use it when it really counts (sparingly & appropriately), otherwise it loses the true meaning of the word. JMHO.

Peace, Nadine

P.S. Btw, my motto is "I may not always agree with what one says, but I'll always defend one's right to state it." IMHO it's called freedom of speech/expression. Bring on differing opinions/POVs/etc.

COME ON, ANGELA NIKODINOV, YOU HAVE IT IN YOU TO SKATE GREAT! BELIEVE IN YOURSELF & RISE TO THE OCCASION!

MODIFIED TO ADD: Jaana, love your comments about Bjorn Borg - he, too, is the one whom first drew me into tennis (just as Nadia Comaneci did likewise w/gymnastics - as regards the former, he is without doubt the BEST that ever lived (no ifs/whats/buts about it). Ah, how I long for those summer days of "wooden" racquets (lol). ^D ***Oops, also wanted to add that IIRC Ivan Lendle said a few times (during that era) that he would trade in several (if not all) of his championship medals for just one Wimbledon Title. To me, that's what did him in, and why he never won the aforementioned title ~ put too much pressure on himself & put that medal on a pedestal above all others ~ JMHO.***

heyang said:

What is an example of choking? Nancy's meltdown at 93 World's. She had a lock on the gold, but performed disastrously. Sure, she wasn't known for having clean LP's, but that was poor even for her. She really only had to stay up in order to win. Another choke - Plushy's 1st shot at World gold. He wanted it so badly that he performed his worst LP ever - he caved to the pressure of his own desires. I think he still ended up on the podium, but that was bad.

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I agree with those examples 100%.

To me, choking involves a key component that goes beyond the mistake, namely giving up after the mistake is made. To me the classical "choke" situations were Plushy in 2000 and Debi Thomas in 1988 at the O's. Debi two footed her triple-triple combo, and in her own words, she felt she'd blown it, so she just "gave up" and floundered around out there making more mistakes. I don't consider Sasha's Nationals 2003 performance or Michelle's 2002 Olympic long "chokes" because even though they had mistakes, they didn't give up and kept on fighting through to the end of the programs. The skates were flawed, but IMO, neither one choked.

It seems to me what Sandhu did in the Worlds '04 SP is very close to the definition of a choke. He had won his QR and was in good position to medal, then in the SP he not only totally bailed out of his first jump, but from then on he pretty much gave up without a fight, chacking one jump after another and performing only spins and footwork, a walk in the park for him.

It's no wonder that Sandhu fans throw up their hands in despair.

ITA, euterpe. Sandhu's SP is a perfect example.

Other examples:
Sale/Pelletier, 2000 worlds LP
Belbin/Agosto, 2003 Nationals FD - a complete disaster by ice dance standards
Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze, 1997 worlds LP
Sasha Cohen, 2000 jr. worlds SP - most of the time she just underperforms; this, however, was a choke
Elvis Stojko, 1996 worlds SP
Kurt Browning, 1994 Olys SP

"Choking?" Who on earth uses this term in figure skating? We say "bad skate" or "off day" or "melt down." I don't think I have heard the term "choke" - at least not on the CBC or CTV coverage.

Where have YOU been? Maybe the Canadian announcers avoid using the term because of its obvious application to you-know-who.

Worlds '04 was hardly the first time Eman 'had an off day',

Define "Choking" Please?

Nadine,

I agree with you. My example of choking would definitely be Angela Nikodinov. Once she makes an error in a program, she throws away the performance. She does this everytime.

Dizzy

Ladskater:
They definitely use the term choke in skating. I remember a fluff piece on Jill Trenary at the 1990 Worlds and she was discussing how everyone thought that she "choked" at 1989 Worlds. She used the term "choke" to discuss her performance and I think she acknowledged that she did choke in 1989 Worlds but don't hold me to it b/c I saw it last week on one of my tapes and didn't really think of it until now.

Sidebar to Nadine: Lendl did say how he wanted to trade all his titles for one Wimbledon but I don't think that that desire did him in. Early on in Lendl's career, he always skipped Wimbledon (probably to protect his ranking) saying that he was allergic to grass , blah , blah. He might not have won Wimbledon when he was 22 anyway considering that he didn't start winning big events regularly until he was 26. Grass just wasn't Lendl's surface and there were a lot of good serve and volley players such as Boris competing with Lendl. By the time Lendl fully committed to Wimbledon, I think he was 29 or 30. What I do know was that he was somewhat past his peak when he started skipping the French to concentrate on Wimbledon. I think at that point he figured that since he had won everything else and made enough money , it was time to concentrate on the one event he didn't win. Still in all of his Wimbledons, Lendl never choked. He always decisively lost to the player who eventually won the whole thing or at least made the finals.

boggartlaura said:

ITA, euterpe. Sandhu's SP is a perfect example.

Other examples:
Sale/Pelletier, 2000 worlds LP
Belbin/Agosto, 2003 Nationals FD - a complete disaster by ice dance standards
Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze, 1997 worlds LP
Sasha Cohen, 2000 jr. worlds SP - most of the time she just underperforms; this, however, was a choke
Elvis Stojko, 1996 worlds SP
Kurt Browning, 1994 Olys SP

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I think I would also add Nicole Bobek's '98 Oly Sp & LP's in this. I still don't understand why she fell apart here.

Nicole fell apart because she did her usual and after having a sparkling Nationals, didn't practice full out and quite frankly, put on several pounds between Nationals and O's, and the weight gain really hurt her. She couldn't land her jumps well. I remember when I first saw her practicing at the O's I couldn't believe my eyes. She was in fighting shape in Philly, but she looked out of shape and somewhat pudgy in comparison in Nagano. Nicole could be a brilliant skater, but her work ethic just plain stunk, and it really cost her in the end.

I really wanted to smack some sense in Nicole when she was so out of shape for the Olympics. I put the blame on her coach though. She was with Christa Fassi for the past year and Christa should have taken charge of Nicole. Not to sound mean, but while I don't think Nicole was *lazy*, I do think that the USFSA held her up too often based on her potential rather than actual results. After her good year with Richard Callaghan, she never had those kind of results and they never sent the message that she needed to shape up or else they wouldn't put her on the team except for 1996 when she pulled out of Nationals and they sent Tara instead of giving her a bye. I think that the USFSA was aware of how Nicole would skate great at NAtionals and then tank at Worlds, so they should have kept an eye on her progress before the Olympics and then if she was getting out of shape, should have just replaced her with Tonia K. It's really frustrating for those workhorse skaters like Tonia K to keep trying and always come up short to skaters with more natural talent and then that skater falls apart at worlds because they didn't try. Tonia had a very nice skate at Worlds in 1998 and she was actually undermarked. I think she could have had a top 10 finish at the Games, but at the very least she would have skated much better than Nicole and she would have really appreciated the opportunity to go to the games.

I thought Nicole had a minor injury (remember, she didn't skate in the exhibition) after 1998 Nationals, and also was ill shortly before the Olympics. Even the most dedicated worker in the world might be out of shape in that situation.

soogar said:

After her good year with Richard Callaghan, she never had those kind of results and they never sent the message that she needed to shape up or else they wouldn't put her on the team except for 1996 when she pulled out of Nationals and they sent Tara instead of giving her a bye. I think that the USFSA was aware of how Nicole would skate great at NAtionals and then tank at Worlds,

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Actually, there was only one year of such history.

In 1994, she didn't have a great LP at Nationals and only went to Worlds as the second alternate with about 3 days notice.

In 1995, she skated well at Nationals and she skated well at Worlds, winning both her qual round and the short program and landing the only 3lutz-3toe of her competitive career in the long before missing two jumps later in the program. Sure, she could have taken gold or silver if she'd landed them, so bronze was a disappointment, but I wouldn't call that tanking. I'm sure the USFSA was very pleased with her medal after two years of no US ladies near the medal podium.

1996, she didn't go to Worlds.

1997, she skated a poor short but good long program at Nationals to make the team, did well in the qual round at Worlds (I think she was second in her group to Lipinski?), then her coach dropped dead and she did less well in the short and "tanked" the long.

I'd have been more concerned about her pattern of poor performances at the fall competitions than a "pattern" of tanking at Worlds, considering that she did quite well at 1995 Worlds and there were clear extenuating circumstances in 94 and 97. (Yes, the 98 Olympics continued that pattern, but hadn't happened yet at the time you're talking about.)