What is refined skating? | Golden Skate

What is refined skating?

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
Can you guys help me with this question: What make a refined skater?

Some skaters are great jumpers but have bad postures (Ie: Irina, Hanyu), some skaters perform and feel the music very well but not famous for their jumps (Ie: Daisuke, Jason), some skaters have beautiful lines but often fell in their LP (Ie: Sasha Cohen). Some are very consistent and have lots of charisma but rarely have creative programs... Everyone have their strength and shortcomings. If so, then what exactly is the definition of refinement in skating? :confused:

I am very confused about this matter. If refinement come with experience and ages, then can we call some veterans "refined skaters" despite the fact that they still have weak nerves (Jeremy) and couldn't perform cleanly lots of times?;)

Thanks all in advance! :)
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
A refined skater, in my mind, is someone with deep edges, graceful arms, good posture, and skates with the music instead of "to" the music. They complete each move instead of merely "doing it". A refined skater is one that can deliver an aesthetically pleasing performance, regardless of whether or not they hit the technical elements. I would call Sasha, Kostner, Chan and Takahashi refined skaters even if they're not technically consistent.
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
A refined skater, in my mind, is someone with deep edges, graceful arms, good posture, and skates with the music instead of "to" the music. They complete each move instead of merely "doing it". A refined skater is one that can deliver an aesthetically pleasing performance, regardless of whether or not they hit the technical elements. I would call Sasha, Kostner, Chan and Takahashi refined skaters even if they're not technically consistent.
Thank you. I have the same thought about mentioned skaters.

Do you think refinement will eventually comes with experience and ages? Since I don't think Kostner was a refined at the age of 17 or 19. But if that is the case, can we call Jeremy Abbot a refined skater? :think:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
Thank you. I have the same thought about mentioned skaters.

Do you think refinement will eventually comes with experience and ages? Since I don't think Kostner was a refined at the age of 17 or 19. But if that is the case, can we call Jeremy Abbot a refined skater? :think:

It definitely comes with experience and maturity. Abbott is indeed a refined skater.

Part of being a refined skater is not merely trying to "fill" the choreography, but rather bringing out nuances in the music with your movements and expressions.
 

Miss Ice

Let the sky fall~
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Apr 16, 2006
A refined skater, in my mind, is someone with deep edges, graceful arms, good posture, and skates with the music instead of "to" the music. They complete each move instead of merely "doing it". A refined skater is one that can deliver an aesthetically pleasing performance, regardless of whether or not they hit the technical elements. I would call Sasha, Kostner, Chan and Takahashi refined skaters even if they're not technically consistent.

I would add Yuna to the list. Consistent + always artistic no matter what = score!
 

tulosai

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 21, 2011
It definitely comes with experience and maturity. Abbott is indeed a refined skater.

Part of being a refined skater is not merely trying to "fill" the choreography, but rather bringing out nuances in the music with your movements and expressions.

I disagree. I think Abbott is a refined skater at times, but I think an important part of being a refined skater is not giving up on the performance. Cohnen, Kostner, Chan, Takahashi rarely if ever give up on the performance, no matter what kind of crazy errors they have made. I think this is key to being a 'refined' skater, because when you give up on the performance, things like line, posture, edging, skating with the music tend to be let go of too.
 

JayW

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 8, 2013
Kwan, first came to my mind.

When I see the term "refined", it means two things: firstly, good technique which is like the bone structure of a skater; secondly, everything in between those elements which is like flesh of a skater. Clearly Kwan has both of them.
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
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Feb 13, 2014
But lots of skaters, no matter how many years they stay in the competition field, couldn't let go of their shortcomings.

Some of them did improve, but still not a significant improvement. Such as bad postures, or bad jumping technique at a certain jumps. Like P.Chan often has trouble with his axel, or Sasha often fell in her LP. Does that mean a refined skater is a flexible definition? Because if refinement also depend on each performance, then skaters have their on and off days. It couldn't be the same with every performance.

Then what about Plushenko? He is one of the most consistent skaters, superior techniques, but repetitive programs. Dick Button call him a great jumper, but he doesn't think Plushy as a great skater. Frankly, even though I am on Yagudin team, I think that judgment is a little bit harsh.:unsure:
 

emdee

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
Other refined skaters would be G&G, Virtue & Moir and Klimova and Ponomarenko.
I think there is a component of elegance and subtlety in refinement. Plushy is seldom subtle.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Jan 25, 2013
Plushenko is not a refined skater. He doesn't complete his moves and if he doesn't land his jumps he doesn't sell the rest of the program. His arms can be frenetic and he lacks finesse and lines in his overall skating and movements in between the jumps. He tends to power around the ice and doesn't pay much attention to the music until the jumps are out of the way.

In terms of jumping technique and consistency he's amazing, and his presence is strong, but in terms of refined movements and fluidity, he's lacking... especially compared to someone like a Takahashi/Buttle/Chan/Lambiel.

What Dick Button is referring to is that Plushenko isn't a great "skater" in terms of the fundamentals/choreo/edges/skating skills that a "great skater" should possess. Bonaly isn't a "great skater" either, even though she's exciting to watch and is a strong jumper.
 

Meoima

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Feb 13, 2014
Jeremy is a lost case for me, though. I really like him when he is clean, which is rarely. I mean, when he truly sold the program, I was really moved, but when he choked, I feel like "oh please stop it all ready"!

What about Jason Brown? Some people call him a refined skater. Even though I do like him a lot, he has a good presence and an engaging character on ice, I can't call him a refined one.

Was P.Chan already a refined skater at 18 or 19 years old? I think he had nuance in his skating at that time.
 

LiamForeman

William/Uilyam
Medalist
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Nov 24, 2006
I'd agree with CanadianSkaterGuy. That's my definition. The thing is, a refined skater with the rarest of exceptions was refined from the start. Yes, you mature, as Kwan did and she became very refined and had her own point of view to her programs and choreography. Some skaters no matter how long they stay in the sport will never become refined. Slutskaya and Max Aaron fall into that category.

I like that description of solid technique being the bones of a skater and how you interpret and expresses the nuances is the flesh of a skater. Quite an interesting and accurate description.

I don't think refined has to mean balletic ala Cohen or Nikodinov, but if a skater has a musical sense all their own (The RUSSIANS) they can be refined even if they skate ghastly programs, ala Plushenko. It would be hard to deny Plushenko goes full out and his posture is usually really good. Sure his arms and hands are not MY definition of refined, but he commits and I just figure "Russian Tackiness" is its own style. Urmanov too. He was a wonderfully refined skater but his programs were over the top.
 

leoncorazon

Skating on through
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I'd add Alissa Czinsy as a refined skater...never had the jumps but could still be completely mesmerizing...especially if she got most of her jumps.
 

skatedreamer

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Feb 18, 2014
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Other refined skaters would be G&G, Virtue & Moir and Klimova and Ponomarenko.
I think there is a component of elegance and subtlety in refinement. Plushy is seldom subtle.

:agree: And since we're talking pairs & ID, I'd like to add Usova & Zhulin to the list. When they were together, I could never decide whether I liked them or K&P the best. Loved them both.

In terms of singles skaters...

Ladies: most recently, Yuna. Going back further, Michelle Kwan and before her, Janet Lynn.
Men: That's tougher. Plushenko & Yagudin, nyet. For real elegance and subtlety, I might have to go all the way back to John Curry.
 

emdee

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 27, 2012
:agree: And since we're talking pairs & ID, I'd like to add Usova & Zhulin to the list. When they were together, I could never decide whether I liked them or K&P the best. Loved them both.

In terms of singles skaters...

Ladies: most recently, Yuna. Going back further, Michelle Kwan and before her, Janet Lynn.
Men: That's tougher. Plushenko & Yagudin, nyet. For real elegance and subtlety, I might have to go all the way back to John Curry.

Buttle as well and sebastian Britten.
 

AngelENTL

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 1, 2014
The thing is, a refined skater with the rarest of exceptions was refined from the start.

Hmmm... For me, it's the opposite; that is, a refined skater, with the rarest of exceptions, is never refined from the start. There's a certain polish that seems to come with experience and maturity that only very rarely is present at or even near the start. Refined skaters like Michelle Kwan and Kristi Yamaguchi, in my opinion, were not refined when they first came on the senior scene but certainly became refined over the course of a couple seasons. I think Oksana Baiul was pretty refined from the get-go, but even for her the level of refinement improved from 1993 to 1994, resulting in the masterpiece Swan Lake short that she performed in Lillehammer.

Does anyone feel like refinement comes at the expense of passion? In her commentary during Slutskaya's short program in Torino, Sandra Bezic said that Irina had a certain wildness about her that was appealing. Can such wildness come out in a completely refined performance? I think it's a hard line to toe. I felt as Chen Lu became more refined, she lost just a bit of that spark, that pure energy that comes out when the skater stops worrying about making something pretty and just lets his/her raw feeling or interpretation of the music express itself on the ice, sans filter.

It's interesting to me how often refinement seems to be the X-factor in close and controversial results, and it's not always refinement that wins. Refinement won over passion in G&G vs M&D. Perfection won over refinement in the case of Lipinski vs Kwan. Technical elements won over refinement in Sotnikova vs Kim.
 

Sam-Skwantch

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re·fined
riˈfīnd/
adjective
1.
with impurities or unwanted elements having been removed by processing.
 

cooper

Medalist
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Mar 23, 2010
a refined skater is someone who doesn't look labored.. doesn't look awkward while moving.. in short looking effortless..
 

yunaddiction

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 7, 2008
It's interesting to me how often refinement seems to be the X-factor in close and controversial results, and it's not always refinement that wins. Refinement won over passion in G&G vs M&D. Perfection won over refinement in the case of Lipinski vs Kwan. Technical elements won over refinement in Sotnikova vs Kim.

Was it a technical element?
Well.... I think it was just absurdity.
 
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