What is refined skating?

shine said:

And I have high hopes for Polina Edmunds for growing into such a skater. She has all the right ingredients and just needs sometime to become soup

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:agree: Right there with you re: Polina. Her calm composure on the ice amazes me, all the more because she's so young. Same for the way she connects to her music -- I loved her "Peer Gynt" LP and can't wait to watch her mature!

Well, "refinement" is about as subjective as it can get, so I don't think anybody can be "right" or "wrong" about this. Definitely possible to disagree though.

For me, refinement is a combination of detail, subtlety, and ability to feel the nuances of the music.

Yuna is the first person that comes to mind for me. She's very expressive but not theatrical. Her precision and feather-light landings also help shape the image. I thought of her before Michelle because Michelle, for all her grace, has a bit of an edge to her--some bombast, some attack, whereas Yuna always seems serene.

For guys, I'd say Takahashi. He seems to get into this zone where he's oblivious to the audience and simply pouring everything into the music. Every gesture is careful and executed beautifully. You can even see it in his spins--he's hardly the fastest spinner around, but his positions are very beautiful (while other people are contorting themselves crazily to get the levels--not that I blame them).

I don't think you need to be a "refined" skater to be a good skater though. "Refined" is just one style of many, and I enjoy watching many people who don't fit (or don't always fit) my definition of refined. Plushenko is the obvious example--he fits the "feels the music part" (see: Je Suis Malade), but definitely misses out on the "subtle" part. But he's compelling to watch and has his own style that works for him.

In fact, I'm trying to think of any recent guys that fit outside of Takahashi, and I'm drawing a bit of a blank. Patrick Chan should, in theory, but his movements come across trying to get the scores/show off the skating skills rather than feeling the music.

BlackPack said:

Meoima...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFt3bDPar60 - the best ladies' Adios Nonino interpretation, sorry, Yuna...

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I remember that was fantastic... I didn't understand why she received so low scores...((

Meoima said:

Uncle Dick is very fond of Kulik. So Kulik is a refined skater, I suppose, despite his choreography and costumes.

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Well, at least me and Button agree on something.

Refined skaters which I love: John Curry, the Protopopovs, Moiseeva&Minenkov, K&P, U&Z, V&M, Lambiel, Kulik, Takahashi, Lu Chen, Michelle Kwan.

Refined skaters which I found boring most of the time: G&G, Yuna, Kostner, Chan, Abbott.

plushyfan said:

I remember that was fantastic... I didn't understand why she received so low scores...((

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4.9.... the British Eurosport guys, "Are we missing something?" She was out of favor for 2 seasons at that point. The judges were hoping to give the bronze to the Russian ladies and didn't expect her to rise to the occasion.

BlackPack said:

4.9.... the British Eurosport guys, "Are we missing something?" She was out of favor for 2 seasons at that point. The judges were hoping to give the bronze to the Russian ladies and didn't expect her to rise to the occasion.

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I doubt that the Australian judge gave to her 4.9 and putting her at 4rth place in order to help the Russian ladies. I mean even the Russian judge gave her 5.5 for required elements and put her 2nd. I think that judge marked as he/she thought proper, althought I don't agree with 4rth and 5th place.
Did she skated early? I don't remember now who skated before her, who was in front of her?

Alba said:

I doubt that the Australian judge gave to her 4.9 and putting her at 4rth place in order to help the Russian ladies. I mean even the Russian judge gave her 5.5 for required elements and put her 2nd. I think that judge marked as he/she thought proper, althought I don't agree with 4rth and 5th place.
Did she skated early? I don't remember now who skated before her, who was in front of her?

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She skated early. At the time, Irina was frequently the bronze medalist with Maria Butyrskaya following. Scott Hamilton said the contenders for the bronze were Irina, Maria, Nicole Bobek, Vanessa Gusmeroli, Surya Bonaly, Chen Lu, Laetitia Hubert, Liashenko, etc. There's only one bronze medal and it often went to Irina. It wasn't until 2000 or so that Irina started fighting head to head with Michelle for gold.

BlackPack said:

She skated early. At the time, Irina was frequently the bronze medalist with Maria Butyrskaya following. Scott Hamilton said the contenders for the bronze were Irina, Maria, Nicole Bobek, Vanessa Gusmeroli, Surya Bonaly, Chen Lu, Laetitia Hubert, Liashenko, etc. There's only one bronze medal and it often went to Irina. It wasn't until 2000 or so that Irina started fighting head to head with Michelle for gold.

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Yeah I know but it doesn't mean anything. I don't think the Australian judge was helping Irina or Maria.
I was curious to know who was the skater placed in front of her at that moment because clearly the top ladies were skating later, and according to the Autralian judge Lu Chen was worth of 4rth place. A total joke.

Alba said:

Yeah I know but it doesn't mean anything. I don't think the Australian judge was helping Irina or Maria.
I was curious to know who was the skater placed in front of her at that moment because clearly the top ladies were skating later, and according to the Autralian judge Lu Chen was worth of 4rth place. A total joke.

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I wasn't talking about the Aussie judge per se. Just the general panel and the energy at the time. But 4.9 is ridiculous.

Even if you say her base mark is 5.4-5.5 and the judge said "She only had a 3toe instead of a 3flip, and she might have cheated her 3lutz rotation because her jumping style was often delayed, her spins weren't the best" 4.9 is still ridiculous. Still at the time skaters who were favored didn't usually get edge and UR calls. Chen Lu 2 years before got 6.0s for presentation. That is why it was shocking.

Irina Slutskaya...the thought of her skating induces shudders. I think it's safe to say Slutskaya was anti-refinement incarnate.

I love when Jenny and Dave from TSL interviewed Frank Carroll, and he flat out said "I don't think Irina was a very beautiful skater." It was hilarious in its accuracy and honesty. Gotta love Frank!!

gettinglow said:

Irina Slutskaya...the thought of her skating induces shudders. I think it's safe to say Slutskaya was anti-refinement incarnate.

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Slutskaya was unrefined, but still had some presence and "finish" to her skating. She's not like a Bonaly for example whose skating was absolutely sloppy but whose elements and attack were wonderful to watch.

Irina was unrefined but did achieve moments of beauty and glory in her skating. Around 2000 she was transformed and had a new feminine energy. My favorite program of hers is her Schubert SP which disguised her general lack of refinement. Bonaly was also exciting to watch, and she is the only one who can land a backflip on one foot. I like the variety of styles. You couldn't help but root for Irina. She was a great champion.

BlackPack said:

Irina was unrefined but did achieve moments of beauty and glory in her skating. Around 2000 she was transformed and had a new feminine energy. My favorite program of hers is her Schubert SP which disguised her general lack of refinement. Bonaly was also exciting to watch, and she is the only one who can land a backflip on one foot. I like the variety of styles. You couldn't help but root for Irina. She was a great champion.

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Irina often looked terribly clunky to me and I always wanted her to develop some of the elegance of the great Russian pairs and ice dancers. Your last 2 sentences pretty much sum it up, though -- she had a quality that always made me want to root for her.

Jeffrey Buttle, Robin Cousins, Brian Boitano, Brian Orser,Todd Eldredge, Michelle Kwan, Dorothy Hamill.

gettinglow said:

Irina Slutskaya...the thought of her skating induces shudders. I think it's safe to say Slutskaya was anti-refinement incarnate.

I love when Jenny and Dave from TSL interviewed Frank Carroll, and he flat out said "I don't think Irina was a very beautiful skater." It was hilarious in its accuracy and honesty. Gotta love Frank!!

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I loved Irina. She was an athlete and loved her jumps. Kwan is my fav. lady of all times but you don't necessary have to be a beautiful skater. Tbh she also tried a lot to work on her body lines etc. but she could never had those beautiful lines like some other skaters. Her body was build in different manner, and some of her music choice didn't help either.
The best skaters for me are those who fully use and play at their strength, whether this is the artistry or technique.