Plushenko:" Kovtun is a good average skater " | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Plushenko:" Kovtun is a good average skater "

karne

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All I can say is some of the people in here would never survive in the fandoms of motorsports, cricket, football...
 

Interspectator

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-That's why some of us are figure skating fans.
I don't like athletes who disparage each other. It is a matter of personal taste. I can enjoy the performances of Plushenko and Chan ...very much.
-Just as Plushenko is allowed to 'say it like it is' fans are allowed to do the same. Plushenko is often rude and his remarks about Kovtun especially seem to be more of a petty personal dislike than anything else. That doesn't mean he isn't also gracious to those he likes, this doesn't cancel out his work as a figure skater, it's just my opinion that his remarks about a skater who is still a teen, and possibly lacking in confidence already, could be more generous.
You can be truthful and tactful at the same time...or are all Japanese skaters liars and flatterers?
 

karne

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Kovtun is not exactly the world's most angelic little darling, either, and is by no means innocent.

..........perhaps both sides need to call one of these magic numbers on the front page? :laugh:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Yes, Plushenko was second to Kovtun at Nationals. Clearly to CSG this is proof positive as to Kovtun's greatness, because certainly there's little else in his first two senior seasons to work with - this despite heavy backing from Tarasova and the most powerful federation in the sport. Never mind that Kovtun beat a 31 year old who had been through multiple surgeries and was a couple of months away from yet another spinal surgery. Nope, it's exactly the same as beating Plushenko in his prime!

"The first skater to land two SP quads in one season" is such a random achievement that I'm not sure why it's even worth discussing. If skaters were allowed two SP quads in Plushenko's heyday, Goebel would have been the first anyway.

Plushenko isn't randomly bashing young skaters, he's saying that he is not impressed with Kovtun. He's certainly been impressed with other skaters, most notably Hanyu. But then, Yuzuru has been impressive so far in his career.

He said "nothing special" and "good average", and then lauds Voronov/Menshov in the next breath. He totally has it out for Kovtun.

Little else? He won the JGPF, he won two GP silvers and qualified for the GPF in his first senior Grand Prix season (Hanyu, by comparison, came 4th and 7th in his first Grand Prix season). He placed 4th at Worlds in his first full season as a senior. He won Russian Nationals after his 3rd attempt, and first full season as a senior, and easily defeated the heavy favourite that was Plushenko, with 2 quads in each program.

He's landed both his 4S & 4T in the SP three times this year - in each GP event, and Nationals. I think Reynolds is the only other skater (and the first, not Kovtun) to have achieved that, and he has achieved that once internationally (correct me if I'm wrong). (Btw, there's also no guarantee Goebel would have done 2 quads in his SP... Javier can do both quads and does 3 in his FS and yet he only attempts the 4S in his SP.)

He is also (to my knowledge) the only skater to have landed both a quad and a triple axel in every FS this season (which Hanyu, Chan, and Plushenko haven't done). Other than the GPF, he's landed his 3A and at least one clean quad in every SP (5/6 competitions).

His skating has a long way to go, but technically - and considering this was his first GP season - he's been actually astonishingly solid.
 

Blades of Passion

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Plushenko is so blunt he even stupidly shot himself in the foot by self-admitting "I have no transitions" instead of "I'm looking to build upon the content I currently have" or something smarter like that.

So you prefer that people lie?

And you think that talking about what are you going to do in the future of your skating should have any impact on the scores you receive?

You have a valid point in this thread (about Plushenko perhaps acting like a pop star who is scared of being outdated), but this line of thinking is nothing but nonsense. You're just buying into cultural dependency on empty rhetoric here. Nobody should have to act in any certain manner if it doesn't hurt others.

If everyone talked openly and honestly, and learned to not get inherently offended by a critical viewpoint, then there wouldn't be so much political/repressive crap in the world.
 

Buttercup

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Winning the JGPF is such an impressive senior level achievement.

Kevin Reynolds is the first and currently the only skater to have landed five quadruple jumps in one competition—at the 2013 Four Continents, he landed two quads in the short program and three in the free skate.:laugh: I guess we should compare Kovtun to Kevin, not to Plushy you know.
But obviously, since Reynolds never beat Plushenko, Plushenko isn't jealous of him :laugh: Even though Kevin has landed multiple quads in his programs several times (and was the first to do so in an SP).
 

karne

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Winning the JGPF is such an impressive senior level achievement.

Especially when you weren't even leading after the short program and the main reason you won is that said leader became rather ill...
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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One more thing: if you want to compare him to Hanyu, to be fair you have to take Kovtun's 2013-2014 season as his "first season", as 2010-2011 was Hanyu's "first season", not consider Kovtun as a Junior being thrown into Worlds as his senior debut (or even more laughable WTT as his senior debut). You take the first grand prix season. That is the first full season as a senior.

Hanyu's first GP season:
In his first Grand Prix season as a senior, Hanyu got a 4th and 7th on the GP (average score: 205.19), didn't qualify for the GPF, and placed 4th at Nationals. He did earn a silver at 4CC (albeit with a score of 228.01 in a weak field). He failed to qualify for Worlds, but in the following season, he went to Worlds, where he placed 3rd.

Kovtun's first GP season:
In his first Grand Prix (and first full) season as a senior, Kovtun got a 2nd and a 2nd on the GP (average score: 239.50), qualified for the GPF, and won the Russian National title. He only came 5th at Euros but with a score of 232.37. He went to Worlds, where he placed 4th.

For all intents and purposes, Kovtun was a junior competing at 2013 Euros and 2013 Worlds - which was the huge mistake on the Russian Fed's part, being their lone entry. His PCS scores alone nullified any potential shot he had at getting 2 spots for Sochi. But here's the thing: even Hanyu wouldn't have done any better.

Interestingly, if we take Kovtun's "fasttrack" scenario and apply it to Hanyu... Hanyu's score when he won Junior Worlds was 216.10 (PB at the time) -- say instead of Junior Worlds the JSF pulled a RusFed and sent him to the 2013 Worlds where Kovtun came 17th... this score would have put him 14th (11th at best with higher PCS scores, and still over 10 points from 10th). Even Hanyu as a Junior fast-tracked to Senior worlds definitely wouldn't have earned 2 spots for Russia as was expected of Kovtun. And say Hanyu in his first senior year had qualified for Worlds at Japan Nationals in 2011... his score at 4CC (easily his PB that season) still wouldn't have come 10th or better, and his Worlds debut would have been out of the top 10 as Kovtun's was.
 

sajoya

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Uh yeah... let's not compare skaters please... :unsure:

This thread was about Plush's comments towards Kovtun, let's keep it that way.
 

Buttercup

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One more thing: if you want to compare him to Hanyu, to be fair you have to take Kovtun's 2013-2014 season as his "first season", as 2010-2011 was Hanyu's "first season".
Really? This was Kovtun's debut season? I don't think so. He made his senior debut in 2012, and he skated in two ISU Championships in 2013. And if you want to be fair, you should compare them age-wise. Hanyu moved up to senior at 15 and did so against a crowded field of Japanese men, including the reigning world champion and that season's Worlds silver medalist. In addition, scores were lower for much of that season. Han Yan might be a more relevant comparison, except Yan is younger and doesn't have a powerful federation looking out for him. Nonetheless, he does have an ISU Championship medal, a GP win, and won Junior Worlds, all before turning 18.

CSG, seriously, you've convinced exactly nobody. Is there any point to this? Does it have any relevance to Plushenko's comments? Did Voronov and Menshov not skate well at Euros? Did Plushenko not skate well in Sochi? Has Kovtun blown anyone away with his skating? Give it a rest.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Uh yeah... let's not compare skaters please... :unsure:

That is kind of the point of the thread. If Plushenko is praising Hanyu, 4 senior GP seasons into Hanyu's career, the least he could do is cut Kovtun with the same pair of scissors. This was Kovtun's first GP season. This was Hanyu's 4th. If you take results though, as I mentioned, Kovtun actually had a more successful first full season as a senior than Hanyu. If we really want to see if Kovtun is comparable, we have to wait to see what he does in his second senior season (the season where Hanyu came 1st and 4th on the GP, and 3rd at Worlds).

People (including Plushenko) love harping on 2013 Euros/Worlds as a way of diminishing Kovtun's progress, but it's pretty laughable when we all know he was a junior being thrown into the senior lion's den, and not many other juniors - even Hanyu - would have likely fared better.
 

Meoima

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One more thing: if you want to compare him to Hanyu, to be fair you have to take Kovtun's 2013-2014 season as his "first season", as 2010-2011 was Hanyu's "first season", not consider Kovtun as a Junior being thrown into Worlds as his senior debut (or even more laughable WTT as his senior debut). You take the first grand prix season. That is the first full season as a senior.
Except for the fact 2010-2011 was not Hanyu's first full senior debut. He still competed in junior field in the same season. And you say Hanyu was not thrown into the senior field? He was just a kid competed in senior field, like Kovtun. Hanyu was just 16 when he was placed 2nd in 4CC that season. 2011-2012 is his first official FULL season as a senior in which he won bronze at worlds with a long program that many people think he deserved to win the free. On the other hand, Kovtun was 18 already in his first full senior season, and no one think his free was that impressive, if you wanna make a comparison. :biggrin:

It's true that Kovtun has to suffer scrutiny, thanks to Plushy and his wife. But frankly, Hanyu is the one who have to suffer scrutiny on a whole different (insane) level, not only from his whole country but the whole figure skating community, especially someone like you. :biggrin:

Hanyu has been placed 1st in 8 international competitions ever since he turned senior at the age of 16. Now he's 19, and 8 gold medals include worlds and Olympic, the numbers alone says a lot.
Or we should just say Kovtun is 6 months younger than Hanyu so it's unfair to make such comparison because of the age gap. ;)

PS: I forgot that Hanyu was still just 15 when he debut at 2010 ISU Grand Prix NHK Trophy.:rolleye: I mean, how could they do that to a kid? Ask him to join senior when he just competed junior 6 months ago?
 

Ryan O

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Would he just STFU about Kovtun already. Isn't he embarrassed? I guess not since he's so hubristic and arrogant. I wonder what Kovtun did to him in a past life. I think it's just nasty that Plush and his wife think it's OK to talk about Kovtun negatively when they're the ones who screwed Kovtun.

Well, it's not what a former champion usually says about a skater from his own country, but maybe Plushenko is saying that at this stage in his career, Kovtun is a decent skater, but not a great one yet. And that part is true. Compared to someone of Plushenko's stature and achievement, Kovtun is obviously not at that level yet.
 

gmyers

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Kovtun @ WC 2014: SP - three L4 spins; FS - three L4 spins -- 6/6 spins level 4
Total BV for spins: 9.4 (SP) + 9.4 (FS) = 18.6 points
Total points for spins: 11.32 (SP) + 11.47 (FS) = 22.79 points

Plushenko @ Sochi 2014, team event: SP - one L4 spin, one L3 spin, one L2 spin; FS - one L4 spin, two L3 spins -- 2/6 spins level 4
Total BV for spins: 8.3 (SP) + 8.8 (FS) = 17.1 points
Total points for spins: 10.51 (SP) + 10.59 (FS) = 21.10 points

You were saying? :rolleye:

The issue is the use of FUSPs instead of more complicated spins -not levels
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Really? This was Kovtun's debut season? I don't think so. And if you want to be fair, you should compare them age-wise. Hanyu moved up to senior at at 15 and did so against a crowded field of Japanese men. In addition, scores were lower for much of that season. Han Yan might be a more relevant comparison, except Yan is younger and doesn't have a powerful federation looking out for him. Nonetheless, he does have an ISU Championship medal, a GP win, and won Junior Worlds, all before turning 18.

CSG, seriously, you've convinced exactly nobody. Is there any point to this?

In 2013, he essentially went from junior-level to senior-level technical content mid-season, adding a quad + 30 seconds longer in his FS for Nationals/Euros/Worlds (JGPF: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1213/gpf1213_JuniorMen_FS_Scores.pdf vs. http://www.isuresults.com/results/ec2013/ec2013_Men_FS_Scores.pdf :eek: These competitions were less than 2 months apart).

So, yes, 2013-2014 was his senior "debut" season for all intents and purposes. Let's be honest -- 2012-2013 wasn't a senior season; he was a junior who was sent to Euros and Worlds. Certainly in the judges' minds, he was still a junior. I mean, look at his PCS jump from 2013 Worlds to his first 2014 GP event when he actually had a summer to work on new programs and properly transition to senior-level programs, and there was a world of improvement in his skating. People honestly expected him to go from JGPF champion, flip the switch and turn into a senior skater mid-season, and then refer to it as his debut senior season?! Not to mention effectively negating all the positives he had on the JGP that season? Come on. :rolleye:

The point of this is that if you're going to criticize a skater, not only is it hilariously oxymoronic to try to trivialize somebody who took your national title away, it's even poorer form to criticize somebody just starting out in the senior ranks, who has actually had some marginal success. He's actually made a lot of progress and has solid results, if you properly take into account that this was his first GP season, and really his first legitimately senior season.

Two GP silvers in his first GP season, and a 2014 National title in his first year as a senior (surely you would agree that at the time of 2013 Russian Nationals, Kovtun was still a junior? ;)) is not too shabby. Along with the slew of quads he's been landing, he's proved to have good consistency. Hanyu's only just started to land his 4S after how many seasons, and Kovtun has landed a handful of them in his first year of attempting the jump. People are calling Kovtun a choke artist for his singling of quads, but the reality is, he's landed more quads than the vast majority of men this year. But of course that qualifies him as "average". :rolleye:
 

gmyers

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kovtun being the Russian national champion does not mean he can't be criticized by a retired veteran! I don't even think being called good average is a criticism. He gets questioned on all skaters. That's why people have posts of him commenting on so many others. He is asked questions by reporters and gives answers that aren't "wish him luck" "everyone makes mistakes" "everyone has strong points" non specific non constructive nonsense. He does have problems and he is good average compared to Chan hanyu and ten and Fernandez. He doesn't work as hard on spins as plushenko always did. Giving up point potential with FUSPs.
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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The issue is the use of FUSPs instead of more complicated spins -not levels

So a FCSp1 is more complicated than a FUSp4? :rolleye: You do realise how spins and levels work, right?... features/levels are demonstrations of complexity/difficulty. By it's very definition, a level is indicative of a more complicated spin. Are you going to get on Takahashi's case for trying a layback spin instead of "more complicated spins"?

There are plenty of skaters who do FUSP - Kovtun, Abbott, Fernandez... and your exact quote was "Kovtun's not even trying to equal Plushenko's difficulty" - when Kovtun did all level 4 spins in both programs, meaning he's going for more difficult features. Plushenko doing a flying camel because it's harder than an upright spin doesn't mean he's more ambitious, it means he's more comfortable with it. There's nothing to say Kovtun can't do a flying camel... he simply prefers to do a FUSp.

Are you going to start criticizing all the skaters who do a flying sit instead of a flying camel, since the latter is considered harder? :rolleye:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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kovtun being the Russian national champion does not mean he can't be criticized by a retired veteran! I don't even think being called good average is a criticism. He gets questioned on all skaters. That's why people have posts of him commenting on so many others. He is asked questions by reporters and gives answers that aren't "wish him luck" "everyone makes mistakes" "everyone has strong points" non specific non constructive nonsense. He does have problems and he is good average compared to Chan hanyu and ten and Fernandez. He doesn't work as hard on spins as plushenko always did. Giving up point potential with FUSPs.

There is criticism, and then there is insults. As a veteran, he should know better and be more mature about discussing his opinions of other skaters. "I've seen nothing special" when a skater qualifies for the GP, wins Russian Nationals in their first year as a senior, and places 4th at Worlds - followed by praise of Voronov and Menshov specifically for a competition where they beat Kovtun - I mean, come on, even an idiot can read between the lines. He wasn't praising Voronov/Menshov so much as taking a slew of cheap shots at Kovtun. Although I suppose the people who neglect are the same who think Yana wasn't setting Kovtun up by saying he must medal at Worlds. :sarcasm:

Kovtun DOES work hard on spins, that's how he got all his spins to level 4 by the time of Worlds. Plushenko on the other hand, does not -- he will settle for performing level 2's and 3's -- as mentioned, only 2/6 spins were a level 4 in Sochi for Plushenko. And when was the last time, if ever, that Plushenko has maximized his spins to all level 4's? (Here's an instance of him doing a FSSp instead of a FCSp -- giving up 0.2 point potential! :eek::disapp: http://www.isuresults.com/results/ec2012/ec2012_Men_FS_Scores.pdf ) FYI, a FUSp4 is worth a whopping 0.3 less than a FCSp4.

Speaking of "giving up point potential", let's not remind you of Vancouver 2010. :biggrin:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

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Except for the fact 2010-2011 was not Hanyu's first full senior debut. He still competed in junior field in the same season. And you say Hanyu was not thrown into the senior field? He was just a kid competed in senior field, like Kovtun. Hanyu was just 16 when he was placed 2nd in 4CC that season. 2011-2012 is his first official FULL season as a senior in which he won bronze at worlds with a long program that many people think he deserved to win the free. On the other hand, Kovtun was 18 already in his first full senior season, and no one think his free was that impressive, if you wanna make a comparison. :biggrin:

Um, 2010-2011, Hanyu didn't compete in any Junior events. His last junior event was JW 2010, to cap off the 2009-2010 season. His first grand prix season (as a senior) was where he came 4th and 7th on the Grand Prix, 4th at Nationals and 2nd at 4CC.

2012-2013 was the first season Kovtun started competing in Senior events, but he switched from junior to senior mid-season, which is extremely rare in the men's discipline. But he was a junior modifying his programs for senior events. I consider a "debut senior season" as a season where somebody starts the season competing in senior-level events, namely Grand Prix events or Nebelhorn/Finlandia. If a skater spends the first half of their season competing as a junior up until the JGPF, you can't really consider it their debut senior season.

Would you consider 2013-2014 to have been Nam Nguyen's senior debut season, because he competed at 4CC and Senior Worlds? And then next year is his second senior season? Should he be worried about being considered average because he failed to crack the top 10 in his first Worlds? I would say, no. Which is exactly how Kovtun's first senior season should be treated -- the only difference is that Nam was treating it as experience whereas Russia was depending on Kovtun as their sole entry to win 2 Sochi spots (if Nam was Canada's sole entry, he would have also failed to get 2 spots).

Kovtun (while no saint) has been put through quite the ringer over the past year, and it's appalling to have skaters like Plushenko (supposedly a role model and classy) bash him for placing 17th and failing to secure 2 spots as essentially a junior, bash him as not having been capable of better than 6th in Sochi, and now bash him as "nothing special". You wonder how many World titles Kovtun would have to win for Plushenko to say something remotely nice about him. :sarcasm:
 
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