Plushenko:" Kovtun is a good average skater "

CanadianSkaterGuy · Apr 13, 2014

nimi said:
Right.

I was making the argument that comparing skaters based on ages is inane. A 6 year old landing a triple axel is notable but it's stupid to say "oh well so and so achieved this by age 15 so that automatically makes them superior to a skater who achieved that only by 17... Skater 2 has a lot to catch up to skater 1 being two years older and not having achieved as much, etc"

I compare skaters by their competitive seasons. So I will disregard how old or how young a skater was and look at the bigger picture. A skater is "senior" when they start to compete on the senior GP curcuit. Being thrown into Worlds and Euros in a season that was predominantly junior level events isn't the same "senior debut" as one who completes their junior year and starts competing in senior events starting with the GP circuit.

Meoima · Apr 13, 2014

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
Age is the stupidest comparison. Let's stop assessing skaters based on when they shot out of their mom or decided to take up skating. Especially when there are late bloomers in the sport.

Where the hell does that logic come from? I can't believe you lack so much common sense. :popcorn:

Just because a certain skater beat your favourite, you have become that... unreasonable, huh? :laugh:

Yes, Plushy is a bit harsh on Kovtun but that man has always been like that for 15 years!!! I see no reason for us for be surprised by his attitude. :laugh:

Dick Button also have not so good words about Plushy, he said Plushy was not a great skater - only a good jumper, then why Plushy's fans didn't make a fuss

?

I am not saying I am approved of Plushy's lethal tongue. But he is the person he is, people admit he has talents and shortcomings. You don't like him, don't support him, that's all.

There would be no way he would change and say candy words towards anyone he does not like. He has a favourite and so do you, simple as that.

Not to mention, his words express his opinion only, he couldn't affect Kovtun's performance anyways. He is not Kovtun's coach, not even have a powerful position in Russian Fed. He holds no power over Kovtun's career. He was not the one who made Kovtun singled his 4S at Worlds

.

Why do you have to bash him and his favourite skater just to prove that you think he does not have good sportsmanship?

treeloving · Apr 13, 2014

Meoima said:
Where the hell does that logic come from? I can't believe you lack so much common sense. Just because a certain skater beat your favourite, you have become that... unreasonable, huh?

Yes, Plushy is a bit harsh on Kovtun but that man has always been like that for 15 years!!! I see no reason for us for be surprised by his attitude. Dick Button also have not so good words about Plushy, he said Plushy was not a great skater - only a good jumper, then why Plushy's fans didn't make a fuss ?

I am not saying I am approved of Plushy's lethal tongue. But he is the person he is, people admit he has talents and shortcomings. You don't like him, don't support him, that's all.

There would be no way he would change and say candy words towards anyone he does not like. He has a favourite and so do you, simple as that.

Not to mention, his words express his opinion only, he couldn't affect Kovtun's performance anyways. He is not Kovtun's coach, not even have a powerful position in Russian Fed. He holds no power over Kovtun's career. He was not the one who made Kovtun singled his 4S at Worlds.

Why do you have to bash him and his favourite skater just to prove that you think he does not have good sportsmanship?

By CSG logic, it should be note that Yuzuru is already olympic, GPF and world champion. And Kovtun handel quad better than Hanyu?????? Well a pop worth less than a fall in current cop.

Well I think I should not involve myself to this kind of argument but sometime is too funny to resist.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Apr 13, 2014

I'm criticizing his comments and people are defending them. That leads to the debate as to whether his assessment of Kovtun is suitable. And also lends itself to comparing Kovtun and Hanyu's first senior seasons, based on Plu liking Hanyu. Based on Kovtun's results so far, I'd say even beyond it just being spiteful words because Kovtun beat him at Nationals, it isn't even an accurate assessment if you look at what Kovtun has done in his first Grand Prix season, and the technical strides he has made. To say there is nothing special is Plu's opinion which is fine... Plenty of folks don't find anything special with Plu's skating beyond the jumps, and plenty do. But as a competitor and role model, he and all skaters should be held to a higher standard when it comes to respecting fellow athletes and sharing your opinion about them. Calling Plushenko a quitter would be disrespectful of Kovtun even if its a valid criticism.

I find a lot of his defenders are like "that's just the way he is" as if it condones it, but you wouldn't ever catch me defending Chan's off colour remarks and say "oh just accept it... He's always been like that".

nimi · Apr 13, 2014

^ So saying someone is merely good = saying someone faked an injury?

Buttercup · Apr 13, 2014

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
I was making the argument that comparing skaters based on ages is inane because it favors Plushenko and Hanyu and makes Kovtun look worse.

There, fixed it for you.

By your logic, the ISU should just do away with all age limits and let skaters compete in novice, junior or senior whenever they want.

A skater's body has limited mileage. If someone wants to spend a larger portion of that time in juniors, that's their business, but I still find the 19 year old OGM just a bit more impressive than the almost 19 year old with zero ISU championship medals.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Apr 13, 2014

nimi said:
^ So saying someone is merely good = saying someone faked an injury?

The point is saying a competitor is nothing special and calling a competitor a quitter are both unsportsmanlike even if both are substantiated opinions (the latter being a fact that Plushenko did quit the individual event).

And it's circumstantial... Plushenko quit but he was injured, Kovtun is good average but he was in his first Grand Prix senior season.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Apr 13, 2014

Buttercup said:
There, fixed it for you.

By your logic, the ISU should just do away with all age limits and let skaters compete in novice, junior or senior whenever they want.

A skater's body has limited mileage. If someone wants to spend a larger portion of that time in juniors, that's their business, but I still find the 19 year old OGM just a bit more impressive than the almost 19 year old with zero ISU championship medals.

Uh yeah, and it works the other way in that it makes Hanyu and Plu look better to suit your argument. :rolleye:

Conveniently using the age comparison to trivialize skaters who simply broke onto the senior scene at a later time.

You see 19 year olds, I see a skater who just finished his 4th grand prix season and a skater who just finished his 1st grand prix season. So Hanyu's lack of GP medals in his first season was due to his age, but Kovtun's first GP season isn't impressive because he happens to be a little older?

I mean do we want to say Kwan was average because at 14 Lipinski already had a World title and Olympic title, whereas Kwan was only 8th and 4th at the age of 14 and 15, winning her title only at 16, and this is average by comparison? Would Baiul (who won Worlds at 15) have dared say Kwan was an average skater in after the 94-95 season despite placing 4th at Worlds and getting two Champion Series medals?

Meoima · Apr 13, 2014

Lol, I also don't approve PChan remarks sometimes but I like him a lot, and I know in real life he is a decent guy with a bad mouth, so I never pay much attention to his statements. It's not like he has done anything wrong or being a racist, homophobic... That's just the way PChan is, what can we do? Plushy is always like that, that is not new at all. Your mum has always been harsh towards your neighbours, but she has gone senile, what can you do, she wouldn't change anyway. There is no need to make a fuss over things that are constant. :laugh:

On a side note, I also couldn't like Kovtun skating either, and I am no 31-year-old-Olympic Champion. Dick Button also stated that he is not fond of Plushy, claiming that he thinks Plushy is only a good jumper. Both of them are great retired skaters with a pile of medals, so what, that's just the way they are. They were asked for their OWN opinions which couldn't affect the performance of active skaters, and they simply replied whatever they think. :laugh:

Meoima · Apr 13, 2014

Buttercup said:
There, fixed it for you.

By your logic, the ISU should just do away with all age limits and let skaters compete in novice, junior or senior whenever they want.

A skater's body has limited mileage. If someone wants to spend a larger portion of that time in juniors, that's their business, but I still find the 19 year old OGM just a bit more impressive than the almost 19 year old with zero ISU championship medals.

:agree:

nimi · Apr 13, 2014

Meoima said:
They were asked for opinion, and they simply replied.

MTE. Apparently they did it wrong, they should have smiled and said, "oh, he's such a delightful skater! I'm a fan!" or something, because skaters should be nice and polite cornflake girls/boys who only say what CSG wants to hear.

Buttercup · Apr 13, 2014

To sum up: Plushenko is not impressed with Maxim Kovtun but is impressed with Kovtun's contemporaries Jason Brown and Yuzuru Hanyu, and also with how fellow Russians Sergei Voronov and Konstantin Menshov skated at Euros.

People seem to take issue with Plushenko's comments for two main reasons: one, Kovtun is better than Plushenko gives him credit for (I disagree) and two, Plushenko is right about Kovtun but shouldn't have said it because it's not nice and/or he is a jealous hater (I disagree).

I hope Menshov beats all of them next season and medals again at Euros. Fernandez and Amodio are also allowed to medal.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Apr 13, 2014

He's free to say whatever he says, just as we are free to criticize him for it and subsequently debate on whether he said is actually a fair assessment.

nimi · Apr 13, 2014

^^ Thanks for the summary, buttercup! :agree:

volk · Apr 13, 2014

Buttercup said:
I hope Menshov beats all of them next season and medals again at Euros. Fernandez and Amodio are also allowed to medal.

So basically you don't want Kovtun to medal at Euros and have a good season.

Buttercup · Apr 13, 2014

volk said:
So basically you don't want Kovtun to medal at Euros and have a good season.

Basically, I don't care about Kovtun or his season, because he bores me.

I want skaters whom I like to have good seasons and win medals. In addition to the three I listed, I wouldn't mind seeing Voronov, Besseghier and Liebers do well at Euros, either, though I hope Liebers will skip the sleep-inducing music this time.

CanadianSkaterGuy · Apr 13, 2014

pangtongfan said:
Kovtun's chances of ever having a career even close to the one Hanyu is going to have, is about the odds of him going through a season without doing a double salchow from his so called planned quad salchow, or not doing those annoying sequence of three turns into some type of popped jump once in a season.

Would that be more or less the odds of Hanyu going through a season without singling or falling on his so called planned quad salchow? :sarcasm: Pretty rich that you're bashing Kovtun's 4S when he was one of the most consistent skaters with that jump this season, as rich as Plushenko calling Kovtun average when he himself has never landed a 4S in competition. :rolleye:

And newsflash, most skaters don't have the career Hanyu is going to have or the career Plushenko had. That doesn't make them automatically average. He just finished his first Grand Prix season with 2 GP silvers, a National title, and 4th at Worlds, and people are writing him off. :rolleye:

Meoima · Apr 13, 2014

CanadianSkaterGuy said:
And newsflash, most skaters don't have the career Hanyu is going to have or the career Plushenko had. That doesn't make them automatically average. He just finished his first Grand Prix season with 2 GP silvers, a National title, and 4th at Worlds, and people are writing him off.

No one is writing him off. Plushy did comment "wait and see", that means even though at the moment he does not see Kovtun as special, it doesn't mean Plushy think Kovtun would stay the same forever.

plushyfan · Apr 13, 2014

Meoima said:
Dick Button also have not so good words about Plushy, he said Plushy was not a great skater - only a good jumper, then why Plushy's fans didn't make a fuss ?

Dick Button after his SP..

Dick Button ‏@PushDicksButton

Re: Plushenko. In my book, #PushDicksButton, I explain I only criticize skaters I think are really talented. (1/2) #Sochi2014

Dick Button ‏@PushDicksButton 5h

Plushenko has theater in his blood. That's why we watch and comment on him. (2/2) #PushDicksButton #Sochi2014 #figureskate

Meoima · Apr 13, 2014

plushyfan said:
Dick Button after his SP..

Dick Button ‏@PushDicksButton

Re: Plushenko. In my book, #PushDicksButton, I explain I only criticize skaters I think are really talented. (1/2) #Sochi2014

Dick Button ‏@PushDicksButton 5h

Plushenko has theater in his blood. That's why we watch and comment on him. (2/2) #PushDicksButton #Sochi2014 #figureskate

Uncle Dick indeed, lol :laugh:

Plushenko:" Kovtun is a good average skater "

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