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Thread: Plushenko:" Kovtun is a good average skater "

  1. #151
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    One more thing: if you want to compare him to Hanyu, to be fair you have to take Kovtun's 2013-2014 season as his "first season", as 2010-2011 was Hanyu's "first season".
    Really? This was Kovtun's debut season? I don't think so. He made his senior debut in 2012, and he skated in two ISU Championships in 2013. And if you want to be fair, you should compare them age-wise. Hanyu moved up to senior at 15 and did so against a crowded field of Japanese men, including the reigning world champion and that season's Worlds silver medalist. In addition, scores were lower for much of that season. Han Yan might be a more relevant comparison, except Yan is younger and doesn't have a powerful federation looking out for him. Nonetheless, he does have an ISU Championship medal, a GP win, and won Junior Worlds, all before turning 18.

    CSG, seriously, you've convinced exactly nobody. Is there any point to this? Does it have any relevance to Plushenko's comments? Did Voronov and Menshov not skate well at Euros? Did Plushenko not skate well in Sochi? Has Kovtun blown anyone away with his skating? Give it a rest.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by sajoya View Post
    Uh yeah... let's not compare skaters please...
    That is kind of the point of the thread. If Plushenko is praising Hanyu, 4 senior GP seasons into Hanyu's career, the least he could do is cut Kovtun with the same pair of scissors. This was Kovtun's first GP season. This was Hanyu's 4th. If you take results though, as I mentioned, Kovtun actually had a more successful first full season as a senior than Hanyu. If we really want to see if Kovtun is comparable, we have to wait to see what he does in his second senior season (the season where Hanyu came 1st and 4th on the GP, and 3rd at Worlds).

    People (including Plushenko) love harping on 2013 Euros/Worlds as a way of diminishing Kovtun's progress, but it's pretty laughable when we all know he was a junior being thrown into the senior lion's den, and not many other juniors - even Hanyu - would have likely fared better.

  3. #153
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    One more thing: if you want to compare him to Hanyu, to be fair you have to take Kovtun's 2013-2014 season as his "first season", as 2010-2011 was Hanyu's "first season", not consider Kovtun as a Junior being thrown into Worlds as his senior debut (or even more laughable WTT as his senior debut). You take the first grand prix season. That is the first full season as a senior.
    Except for the fact 2010-2011 was not Hanyu's first full senior debut. He still competed in junior field in the same season. And you say Hanyu was not thrown into the senior field? He was just a kid competed in senior field, like Kovtun. Hanyu was just 16 when he was placed 2nd in 4CC that season. 2011-2012 is his first official FULL season as a senior in which he won bronze at worlds with a long program that many people think he deserved to win the free. On the other hand, Kovtun was 18 already in his first full senior season, and no one think his free was that impressive, if you wanna make a comparison.

    It's true that Kovtun has to suffer scrutiny, thanks to Plushy and his wife. But frankly, Hanyu is the one who have to suffer scrutiny on a whole different (insane) level, not only from his whole country but the whole figure skating community, especially someone like you.

    Hanyu has been placed 1st in 8 international competitions ever since he turned senior at the age of 16. Now he's 19, and 8 gold medals include worlds and Olympic, the numbers alone says a lot.
    Or we should just say Kovtun is 6 months younger than Hanyu so it's unfair to make such comparison because of the age gap.

    PS: I forgot that Hanyu was still just 15 when he debut at 2010 ISU Grand Prix NHK Trophy. I mean, how could they do that to a kid? Ask him to join senior when he just competed junior 6 months ago?

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackPack View Post
    Would he just STFU about Kovtun already. Isn't he embarrassed? I guess not since he's so hubristic and arrogant. I wonder what Kovtun did to him in a past life. I think it's just nasty that Plush and his wife think it's OK to talk about Kovtun negatively when they're the ones who screwed Kovtun.
    Well, it's not what a former champion usually says about a skater from his own country, but maybe Plushenko is saying that at this stage in his career, Kovtun is a decent skater, but not a great one yet. And that part is true. Compared to someone of Plushenko's stature and achievement, Kovtun is obviously not at that level yet.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    Kovtun @ WC 2014: SP - three L4 spins; FS - three L4 spins -- 6/6 spins level 4
    Total BV for spins: 9.4 (SP) + 9.4 (FS) = 18.6 points
    Total points for spins: 11.32 (SP) + 11.47 (FS) = 22.79 points

    Plushenko @ Sochi 2014, team event: SP - one L4 spin, one L3 spin, one L2 spin; FS - one L4 spin, two L3 spins -- 2/6 spins level 4
    Total BV for spins: 8.3 (SP) + 8.8 (FS) = 17.1 points
    Total points for spins: 10.51 (SP) + 10.59 (FS) = 21.10 points

    You were saying?
    The issue is the use of FUSPs instead of more complicated spins -not levels

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Really? This was Kovtun's debut season? I don't think so. And if you want to be fair, you should compare them age-wise. Hanyu moved up to senior at at 15 and did so against a crowded field of Japanese men. In addition, scores were lower for much of that season. Han Yan might be a more relevant comparison, except Yan is younger and doesn't have a powerful federation looking out for him. Nonetheless, he does have an ISU Championship medal, a GP win, and won Junior Worlds, all before turning 18.

    CSG, seriously, you've convinced exactly nobody. Is there any point to this?
    In 2013, he essentially went from junior-level to senior-level technical content mid-season, adding a quad + 30 seconds longer in his FS for Nationals/Euros/Worlds (JGPF: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FS_Scores.pdf vs. http://www.isuresults.com/results/ec..._FS_Scores.pdf These competitions were less than 2 months apart).

    So, yes, 2013-2014 was his senior "debut" season for all intents and purposes. Let's be honest -- 2012-2013 wasn't a senior season; he was a junior who was sent to Euros and Worlds. Certainly in the judges' minds, he was still a junior. I mean, look at his PCS jump from 2013 Worlds to his first 2014 GP event when he actually had a summer to work on new programs and properly transition to senior-level programs, and there was a world of improvement in his skating. People honestly expected him to go from JGPF champion, flip the switch and turn into a senior skater mid-season, and then refer to it as his debut senior season?! Not to mention effectively negating all the positives he had on the JGP that season? Come on.

    The point of this is that if you're going to criticize a skater, not only is it hilariously oxymoronic to try to trivialize somebody who took your national title away, it's even poorer form to criticize somebody just starting out in the senior ranks, who has actually had some marginal success. He's actually made a lot of progress and has solid results, if you properly take into account that this was his first GP season, and really his first legitimately senior season.

    Two GP silvers in his first GP season, and a 2014 National title in his first year as a senior (surely you would agree that at the time of 2013 Russian Nationals, Kovtun was still a junior? ) is not too shabby. Along with the slew of quads he's been landing, he's proved to have good consistency. Hanyu's only just started to land his 4S after how many seasons, and Kovtun has landed a handful of them in his first year of attempting the jump. People are calling Kovtun a choke artist for his singling of quads, but the reality is, he's landed more quads than the vast majority of men this year. But of course that qualifies him as "average".

  7. #157
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    kovtun being the Russian national champion does not mean he can't be criticized by a retired veteran! I don't even think being called good average is a criticism. He gets questioned on all skaters. That's why people have posts of him commenting on so many others. He is asked questions by reporters and gives answers that aren't "wish him luck" "everyone makes mistakes" "everyone has strong points" non specific non constructive nonsense. He does have problems and he is good average compared to Chan hanyu and ten and Fernandez. He doesn't work as hard on spins as plushenko always did. Giving up point potential with FUSPs.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    The issue is the use of FUSPs instead of more complicated spins -not levels
    So a FCSp1 is more complicated than a FUSp4? You do realise how spins and levels work, right?... features/levels are demonstrations of complexity/difficulty. By it's very definition, a level is indicative of a more complicated spin. Are you going to get on Takahashi's case for trying a layback spin instead of "more complicated spins"?

    There are plenty of skaters who do FUSP - Kovtun, Abbott, Fernandez... and your exact quote was "Kovtun's not even trying to equal Plushenko's difficulty" - when Kovtun did all level 4 spins in both programs, meaning he's going for more difficult features. Plushenko doing a flying camel because it's harder than an upright spin doesn't mean he's more ambitious, it means he's more comfortable with it. There's nothing to say Kovtun can't do a flying camel... he simply prefers to do a FUSp.

    Are you going to start criticizing all the skaters who do a flying sit instead of a flying camel, since the latter is considered harder?

  9. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    kovtun being the Russian national champion does not mean he can't be criticized by a retired veteran! I don't even think being called good average is a criticism. He gets questioned on all skaters. That's why people have posts of him commenting on so many others. He is asked questions by reporters and gives answers that aren't "wish him luck" "everyone makes mistakes" "everyone has strong points" non specific non constructive nonsense. He does have problems and he is good average compared to Chan hanyu and ten and Fernandez. He doesn't work as hard on spins as plushenko always did. Giving up point potential with FUSPs.
    There is criticism, and then there is insults. As a veteran, he should know better and be more mature about discussing his opinions of other skaters. "I've seen nothing special" when a skater qualifies for the GP, wins Russian Nationals in their first year as a senior, and places 4th at Worlds - followed by praise of Voronov and Menshov specifically for a competition where they beat Kovtun - I mean, come on, even an idiot can read between the lines. He wasn't praising Voronov/Menshov so much as taking a slew of cheap shots at Kovtun. Although I suppose the people who neglect are the same who think Yana wasn't setting Kovtun up by saying he must medal at Worlds.

    Kovtun DOES work hard on spins, that's how he got all his spins to level 4 by the time of Worlds. Plushenko on the other hand, does not -- he will settle for performing level 2's and 3's -- as mentioned, only 2/6 spins were a level 4 in Sochi for Plushenko. And when was the last time, if ever, that Plushenko has maximized his spins to all level 4's? (Here's an instance of him doing a FSSp instead of a FCSp -- giving up 0.2 point potential! http://www.isuresults.com/results/ec..._FS_Scores.pdf ) FYI, a FUSp4 is worth a whopping 0.3 less than a FCSp4.

    Speaking of "giving up point potential", let's not remind you of Vancouver 2010.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meoima View Post
    Except for the fact 2010-2011 was not Hanyu's first full senior debut. He still competed in junior field in the same season. And you say Hanyu was not thrown into the senior field? He was just a kid competed in senior field, like Kovtun. Hanyu was just 16 when he was placed 2nd in 4CC that season. 2011-2012 is his first official FULL season as a senior in which he won bronze at worlds with a long program that many people think he deserved to win the free. On the other hand, Kovtun was 18 already in his first full senior season, and no one think his free was that impressive, if you wanna make a comparison.
    Um, 2010-2011, Hanyu didn't compete in any Junior events. His last junior event was JW 2010, to cap off the 2009-2010 season. His first grand prix season (as a senior) was where he came 4th and 7th on the Grand Prix, 4th at Nationals and 2nd at 4CC.

    2012-2013 was the first season Kovtun started competing in Senior events, but he switched from junior to senior mid-season, which is extremely rare in the men's discipline. But he was a junior modifying his programs for senior events. I consider a "debut senior season" as a season where somebody starts the season competing in senior-level events, namely Grand Prix events or Nebelhorn/Finlandia. If a skater spends the first half of their season competing as a junior up until the JGPF, you can't really consider it their debut senior season.

    Would you consider 2013-2014 to have been Nam Nguyen's senior debut season, because he competed at 4CC and Senior Worlds? And then next year is his second senior season? Should he be worried about being considered average because he failed to crack the top 10 in his first Worlds? I would say, no. Which is exactly how Kovtun's first senior season should be treated -- the only difference is that Nam was treating it as experience whereas Russia was depending on Kovtun as their sole entry to win 2 Sochi spots (if Nam was Canada's sole entry, he would have also failed to get 2 spots).

    Kovtun (while no saint) has been put through quite the ringer over the past year, and it's appalling to have skaters like Plushenko (supposedly a role model and classy) bash him for placing 17th and failing to secure 2 spots as essentially a junior, bash him as not having been capable of better than 6th in Sochi, and now bash him as "nothing special". You wonder how many World titles Kovtun would have to win for Plushenko to say something remotely nice about him.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    That is kind of the point of the thread. If Plushenko is praising Hanyu, 4 senior GP seasons into Hanyu's career, the least he could do is cut Kovtun with the same pair of scissors. This was Kovtun's first GP season. This was Hanyu's 4th.
    You make no sense. They are basically the same age. Hanyu is an OC, with 4th senior GP season. Kovtun has no such records. It's only logical that Plushenko praise Hanyu and calls Kovtun average. That is what their records say.

  12. #162
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    I think Kovtun has earned Plushenko's eternal hatred by beating him at 2014 Russian nationals (making him lobby and submit himself to the humiliation* of test skates to skate in the Munic... I mean Sochi games).

    And in Russia if you're more powerful than someone you dislike it seems you can diss them eternally in public, there's not thought given to fairplay or not kicking someone when they're down or letting bygones be bygones.

    *in Plushenko's view

  13. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy View Post
    In 2013, he essentially went from junior-level to senior-level technical content mid-season, adding a quad + 30 seconds longer in his FS for Nationals/Euros/Worlds (JGPF: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FS_Scores.pdf vs. http://www.isuresults.com/results/ec..._FS_Scores.pdf These competitions were less than 2 months apart).
    And the American boys were doing that three seasons in a row - skating Junior most of the season, switching to Senior-length and content for Nationals. Whoop-de-doo.

  14. #164
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    As far as I'm concerned, a skater who skates at multiple senior ISU Championships can't be considered as making a senior debut the next season. And really, Kovtun was given the most low pressure senior debut there is - a WTT assignment. But even if we consider this season to be Kovtun's debut, I hardly think a senior debut at age 18 is comparable to one at age 15.

    But let's compare career development rather than age, since apparently that tells us so much. Well, Plushenko at 16 (1999, the end of his second senior season): 2 World medals, 2 European medals, a GPF medal, 5 GP medals and 2 wins (back then skaters could get three assignments), 1 National title and a bronze. He also won JW at the age of 14. And I do mean 14 - it was held shortly after his birthday. Plushenko's age-18 season is a column of golden 1s on Wikipedia; he was undefeated. Given all that, I can certainly understand why Plushenko would look at someone whose best result, at the age of 18 after two senior seasons, is a GP silver, whose jump technique is certainly not up to Mishin standards and who's not a particularly good performer even compared to others his age, and consider him only good-average. And maybe that will change - Javier Fernandez had his breakthrough at a later age, as did most of the Japanese guys. But at the moment Plushenko's assessment is spot on.

    I'd rather watch Menshov than Kovtun any day.

  15. #165
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    let's be honest here is kovtun a wunderkind, a natural genius like plushenko, yagudin, hanyu, chan? well no... but does he have talent? can he become a force to be reckoned? hell yes /(and I'm saying this as someone that can't stand him...) right now I agree that he is not a GREAT skater but 4th at 18 in the world isn't too shabby so I would say that he is far better than your average skater... and maybe people should remember that some of those that are considered the greatest skater of the last few olympic cycle didn't do so weel until they were well into their twenties (ie, takahashi, lambiel, to a lesser extent fernandez)

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