Plushenko:" Kovtun is a good average skater " | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Plushenko:" Kovtun is a good average skater "

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
So far he's been doing this. I hope he has a decency to stop.

I feel like in a desperate attempt to maintain relevance, he'll continue to flame Kovtun whenever Kovtun does poorly. Watch, even if Kovtun goes clean and comes 2nd at the GPF to a perfect Hanyu, Plushenko will criticize him for failing to win. :rolleye:
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Really? He deserved 2013 Euros? I think Menshov deserved it. So did basically all the Russian skaters.

As for the scores, let's go back to what I wrote:

Was Plushenko at his peak this past season? It's all hypotheticals, but I bet if Plushenko, Lambiel, Joubert and Buttle, to name a few, had peaked in this quad rather than the previous decade, their PBs would have been at least 10-15 points higher.

Plushenko's combined score at the team event was still better than anything Kovtun ever put together, BTW. And you can say that's reputation scoring, but the Russian fed was still right to choose the skater with the best chance of scoring well.

Whether you're playing devil's advocate or really believe that Kovtun is some shining talent, this has gotten boring.

While I think Menshov deserved it, the point differential at 2013 Nationals was 3 points, and Kovtun was 3rd in the SP. Kovtun also did a variety of things that kept him off the podium, like only do one combination. His PCS was 3rd in both segments. He had also skated lights out in the FS of the JGPF with a clean skate (including a quad and both axels). So putting him over Menshov (while I agree was a rotten decision for Menshov), kind of made sense to see how Kovtun might do at Euros (as for Menshov, we all know the Russian fed's disposition towards him anyways in terms of fairness).

Then Kovtun landed both quads and both axels at Euros. Had he not added a 2T to the 3S, he would have had the 2nd highest FS TES score (bearing in mind, he's still essentially a JUNIOR). Voronov was 20 points behind him in the FS, and 15 points behind him overall. So the Russian fed - who as you said, has the right to choose who they think has the best chance at scoring well - took a gamble by sending Kovtun to Worlds when Plushenko didn't go, and it didn't pay off. Especially since he obviously wasn't going to get a huge PCS reward, after getting junior-level PCS all season.

And for whatever reason, people still criticize him (including Plushenko, who failed to win Nationals, and then grumbled that Kovtun should have won 2 spots so that somehow earns him the right to go to Sochi). For all intents and purposes, he was a junior slated to compete at Junior Worlds, who essentially did well enough (compared to Voronov/Menshov/Gachinski) to be considered for senior Worlds, and through politicking got sent. At Worlds he actually had a great start to his FS, landing two quads, 3Z+3T, his 1st 3A, and almost a 2nd 3A, before the breakdown. He was a long shot to place in the top 10 anyways (would have had to top his Euros performances), and essentially tied for 15th, but let's not pretend like Voronov/Menshov/Gachinski would have certainly fared well enough to get 2 spots. It was a ton of pressure for somebody who got NO definitive transition period from Junior to Senior, so to hold that over his head is absolutely unfair.

Especially when the following season, he follows up a 17th at Worlds with a 4th in the World, a National title, 2 GP silvers (almost a GP win) and a GPF qualification, and highest SP score of any Russian man that season.
 

aschiutza

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Volk and CSG, what skills put in your opinion Kovtun above the "good average skater"? Speak not the world position or EU postion or position at the Russain Championship. WHat skills? Because about that was Plushenko speaking. Not about points, not about the inflation in PCS Kovtun gets, but that at the end of the day, Kovtun is at the moment a good (nat bad, yes?) average skater. Voronov has now a silver EU medal and he is two time russian champ. Does it make him a skater above the average?

And about relevance, is he learning perhaps from you CSG. You use EVERY and really EVERY oportunity to put down Plushenko regardless what he has also said in that interview, you will choose like Volk only what suits you to put him down. He has speaked in the interview about many other things, why do you choose only what out of the context would put him down? So go figure!

I don't think that Plushenko needs any kind of Kovtun to maintain relevance. As he doesn't need Yuzu or the juniors, about whom he was also speaking (if you have missed go back and read the interview). Or about Menshov and Voronov, whom he gratulated for their european medals. Why does he have to like every skater in the world to please you? (even then he won't please you, than you will come that he praise everybody to maintain "relevance" :laugh: ).
 

CanadianSkaterGuy

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 25, 2013
Volk and CSG, what skills put in your opinion Kovtun above the "good average skater"? Speak not the world position or EU postion or position at the Russain Championship. WHat skills? Because about that was Plushenko speaking. Not about points, not about the inflation in PCS Kovtun gets, but that at the end of the day, Kovtun is at the moment a good (nat bad, yes?) average skater. Voronov has now a silver EU medal and he is two time russian champ. Does it make him a skater above the average?

And about relevance, is he learning perhaps from you CSG. You use EVERY and really EVERY oportunity to put down Plushenko regardless what he has also said in that interview, you will choose like Volk only what suits you to put him down. He has speaked in the interview about many other things, why do you choose only what out of the context would put him down? So go figure!

I don't think that Plushenko needs any kind of Kovtun to maintain relevance. As he doesn't need Yuzu or the juniors, about whom he was also speaking (if you have missed go back and read the interview). Or about Menshov and Voronov, whom he gratulated for their european medals. Why does he have to like every skater in the world to please you? (even then he won't please you, than you will come that he praise everybody to maintain "relevance" :laugh: ).

Kovtun's skating skills are better than Plushenko's, particularly his edges. He has 2 different quads in his SP, which is super risky and super rare. The fact that he CAN land both 4S and 4T in a program makes him more than an average skater (and it's certainly not something Plushenko ever did). His speed has improved immensely since last season (though it still needs to be better), and his arms are more refined (also, could be better). But his choreography is fairly ambitious, and his presentation has improved a lot -- his FS in 2013 Worlds had 66 points PCS, in 2014 Worlds it was 82 points. You don't get 247 points at Worlds (which could have been easily 250+ if he had done even a 3S instead of a single) by being merely an "average skater".

Also, f somebody says something wrong in an interview, are you saying we shouldn't call them out on that if the rest of the interview he says many other things?

I'm not saying he should have to like every skater in the world. But he should show respect towards all of them. Labelling the current Russian National Champion - who defeated him to get that title - an "average skater" is absolutely uncalled for.
 

moviechick

On the Ice
Joined
May 7, 2008
I'm saying, all 3 skaters have made disparaging comments about other skaters at some point in time. And it is wrong. I don't care how many World titles or Olympic medals you have. It's unclassy, it's disrespectful, and it does not belong in the sport.

And it's incredibly stupid to insult Kovtun in just his 2nd season as a senior. Technically, his first seeing as how he was a junior-competing-as-a-senior two years ago in Euros/Worlds. It would be as silly as Chan saying Nguyen is a good, average skater.

Dude come on, Chan has said dumber sh-t than this quite recently.
 

jkun

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 16, 2013
I don't think Kovtun is anything special, but I don't think Plush, being such a prominent figure, should say such things.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
As unclassy as it would be to retort back, I wish Kovtun would just lay this jerk out to dry:

"An average skater is one who quits in front of a home crowd. An average skater is one who has to do a test skate instead of winning Nationals in order to compete in Sochi. An average skater is one who can only land a 4T and not a 4S as well. An average skater is one who doesn't even attempt at least 2 quads in one freeskate. An average skater is one who, even if he goes clean, loses to a skater who doesn't even attempt quads." :rolleye:

Yeah and make himself despised by Russian skating fans for life, and make himself look like an idiot by thrashing a godly legend of the sport out of jealousy. That would be oh so smart. Great CSG logic as always. :laugh: Anyway:

1. Plushenko did NOT skate cleanly in losing to Lysacek. He had atleast 3 very shaky landings, and he left out some combinations (only did 2 and didnt do a 3 jump combination).

2. Kovtun skating his absolute best wouldnt have had a hope in hell of beating the Lysacek of Vancouver, or even coming close.

3. Plushenko in his physical prime was attempting the quad lutz, and a quad-triple-triple. Kovtun all these years later?

4. Lets see how many quads Kovtun is attempting at 31 (presumably in a show as like all mere mortals he wont be anywhere near competing at the national or international level by then).

5. Plushenko could just respond by the most blunt truth. A clean Kovtun at 18 cant beat a clean Plushenko at 31 (that is obvious by their scores), in addition to being less consistent and more often making more mistakes than Oldshenko.


Dude come on, Chan has said dumber sh-t than this quite recently.

He has, but CSG labels Chan and Scott Moir as classy individuals (as opposed to the so called jerk Plushenko) and goes ballistic over anyone who says otherwise. :laugh:


And again, regarding scores: Plushenko was getting 90s in the SP and 160s in the LP when those scores were basically world records or very near it. You can't compare scores from 2013-14 to those of skaters whose peak was earlier. Kovtun has a higher PB than Lambiel, and he's certainly nowhere near the skater Lambiel is.

Dont even bother. CSG still insists a clean Fernandez would outscore a perfect Plushenko from his peak skating years (I dont mean the current one, but the one from 2000-2006). He has a huge Plushenko hate-on and doesnt resist any attempt to downplay and his legacy in the sport, even using his performances and skating at 30 and 31 to do so. He also constantly compares scores from many years in the past always to try and prove his "point", both regarding Plushenko and other skaters. He is beyond clueless about how scoring of skating works, and how IJS scores naturally elevate in a huge way without skating even improving to the same extent.

Lambiel at the 2005 worlds barely got over 150 for a clean performance (his q round) with 2 quads. Yeah I am sure that is what he would get today. :sarcasm:
 

aschiutza

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
I'm not saying he should have to like every skater in the world. But he should show respect towards all of them. Labelling the current Russian National Champion - who defeated him to get that title - an "average skater" is absolutely uncalled for.

Aaaa. yeah, you lost me here with "absolutely uncalled for". :popcorn::biggrin:

When Plushenko said Kovtun would have been no6 at the oly you was also with the same "no respect" on your lips (four + Chan+ Denis Ten =6). Oh the outcry here!

About the skills, they are now so high because Plushenko generation gave its input, like the generations before. He learned his skills in another era, and they were great for that time. Or now are Yagudin and Hamilton not great skaters, because Kovtun can do better jumps than them? Or Dick Button should keep for ever his mouth closed as every skater now does more than he did back in time? But even when the worse skater at the worlds does in some skills more than Yagudin did years ago, that doesn't make him a "above the average" skater. As we judge the skaters for the era they were taught to skate. In the actual field of competition, Kovtun is at the moment an average skater with nothing outstanding and only chance to get to the big places when better skaters don't shows their potential, even his praised jumps have such a bad technik in them - much worse than Yagudin and Plushenko showed in theirs. It may change, why not? Should he have skated 15 years ago, he would have been other rated, as he would have showed himself in the field of that times. But till then, i don't see what is uncalled for (or even better "absolutely uncalled for") to say it sound and clear, or why Plushenko beacuse was beaten at one competition by Kovtun should refrain of telling the truth. Should we let the emperor without clothes go on the street and only praise his new clothes just because he is the new emperor? Sure, we all prefer to show "respect" by lying, is much more easy to show false respect by false flattery nowadays and gather points as being "gracious".

Well, anyhow this all questions from me are only rhetorical ones, don't bother to answer. My logic had enough of it :popcorn: .
 

pointyourtoe

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
I stopped disliking Plushenko recently when I watched more of his interviews where he seemed sweet and well intentioned and read the article about his support of gay rights, but..

It's not as if he expressed his opinion once or twice. This is like the 5th public statement he's made on how mediocre this guy is as a skater. Enough is enough. :eek:
 

pointyourtoe

On the Ice
Joined
Apr 11, 2013
I'm far from a nationalist but it's so obvious to me now that sky_fly is a Russian posing as a Gracie Gold fan just to attract negative attention towards her.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Plushenko's just being his usual infantile self. He can't stand the idea of fading into anonymity in the next five years, which he will, so he has to have a few outbursts to keep the press interested. It's pathetic and desperate. At this point, he's just embarrassing himself.

What's most disappointing is people in this thread actually think Plushenko's behavior is fine. What's the point of being mean-spirited for the sake of it? I don't get it. Plushenko could have just said he has talent (which is true) and hopes to see great things from him in the future. That's how a normal, decent human being would answer any question about Kovtun. Also, as far as being "average," Kovtun's a national champion, two-time Grand-Prix event silver medalists, and a 4th place finisher at worlds. He's not average by any conventional definition of that word.

And I second some people above me about Pitkeev. It will be interesting to see how he develops.

No no no! He always speaks the truth about Russian men. It's just a fact. Like he said the truth about voronov lutai menshov. Some say he should never speak he truth and just be a cheerleader. But he's not a blind cheerleader he speaks the truth.
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
I have no doubt sky_fall is a Russian as well, but I doubt he is saying anything than what he believes on Gold. He is just a delusional and over the top fanboy of Gold who finds it impossible to be somewhat realistic on her, the way CSG is of Chan, the way drivingmissdaisy is of Sotnikova, the way Blades of Passion is of Michelle Kwan, etc....
:unsure: I think life would be much easier if that is the truth you know. Out of top ten mysteries of Golden Skate, I bet Skyfly case is the most difficult one to tackle.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Also, it's interesting that in spite of being such an average skater, Kovtun's SP personal best is better than Plushenko's SP personal best. :popcorn:

And, well, he lost his National title to this average skater... so there's that too. :rolleye:

Good average! That's the line. Good average! Guess what? Kovtun is good average.
 

nimi

Medalist
Joined
Apr 7, 2014
About the skills, they are now so high because Plushenko generation gave its input, like the generations before. He learned his skills in another era, and they were great for that time. Or now are Yagudin and Hamilton not great skaters, because Kovtun can do better jumps than them? Or Dick Button should keep for ever his mouth closed as every skater now does more than he did back in time?
That would be a sad state of affairs indeed!

I still don't get why calling Kovtun "good-but-average" is soooo ruuuuude.
Blunt? Yes.
Polite? No.
Rude? I guess the answer depends on your cultural background etc., but for me: not particularly. (I'm not North American)
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
That would be a sad state of affairs indeed!

I still don't get why calling Kovtun "good-but-average" is soooo ruuuuude.
Blunt? Yes.
Polite? No.
Rude? I guess the answer depends on your cultural background etc., but for me: not particularly. (I'm not North American)

I agree here. Some cultures do equate honesty and rudeness.
 

Meoima

Match Penalty
Joined
Feb 13, 2014
I dont think it is complicated. He is excessively pro Russian and Gracie Gold and visibly anti Canadian. Nothing more than that.
In deed Skyfly is excessively pro Russian but I think it's more towards blondie girls. Lena of I/K also got bashed you know.:unsure:
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
My guess is that Plushenko is not able to forget or forgive Kovtun for beating him at the Russian Nationals... Yeah, an average skater managed to beat him :laugh:
 

Sam-Skwantch

“I solemnly swear I’m up to no good”
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 29, 2013
Country
United-States
Golden Skate has a very Russian theme today. :popcorn:
 

Snow63

Pray one day we'll open our eyes.
Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
I dont think it is complicated. He is excessively pro Russian and Gracie Gold and visibly anti Canadian. Nothing more than that.

And he's a SHE :laugh:
Seriously, Skyfly told everyone that she's a girl. Stop calling him 'he' :laugh:

On topic: I'm very disappointed in Plush. He and his wife are doing the most again. He's probably just jealous to that young guy... because he's not young anymore. All this situation is really stupid, and it's not helping Plush nor Kovtun.
 
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