04-12-2014, 10:56 PM
The issue is kovtun is only good average. Plushenko won a world medal younger than kovtun. He got 96 pcs and kovtun got 90. You are saying plushenko was overscored but kovtun wasn't? What is your point? Kovtun is amazing? A Russian chan or hanyu? Or he is good average? What is so awful about being called good average?
Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy
04-12-2014, 11:12 PM
If you need explaining why being referred to as a good average skater isn't insulting then you have a whole different thing coming at you. Also comparing Plu as a teen to Kovtun as a teen is inane, especially when the requirements are much harder for men today compared to back then when landing the jumps including quad were enough. In a sport where average = boring, calling somebody good average is insulting. I think Plushenko takes offense if people call his program contet average, even if it is. There's a way to go about giving criticism.
Plushenko is so blunt he even stupidly shot himself in the foot by self-admitting "I have no transitions" instead of "I'm looking to build upon the content I currently have" or something smarter like that.
The reality is, if the Plushenko that skated in 2002-2010 skated today, under this system he would just be considered an "average" skater too. His jumping consistency and competitors' lack of jumping consistency carried him through post-Yagudin and in the rare instance a more artistic competitor actually skated technically superbly (Sandhu/Joubert/Lysacek), Plushenko would lose to them because jumps aside he was just an average skater himself and that couldn't save the win. He's incredibly lucky Lambiel never had a consistent axel and Buttle never had a consistent quad, and Joubert bombed in 2006. Any of those guys skating cleanly would have easily beat him.
Also I don't think Kovtun cares about the wrath of Russia if he's merely pointing out facts like him beating Plushenko at Russian Nationals and having the ability to execute two different quads and being one of the few guys to execute two quads in the SP (in just his first whole senior season, at that).
All Kovtun needs to know is, Plushenko's insults hold no bearing and he's got the Russian title to prove it. Kovtun should not try to live up to Plushenko's accolades particularly when he is now competing in a much more competitive environment with a much more demanding set of rules than Plushenko had to deal with.
04-12-2014, 11:35 PM
It doesn't matter what the standards are at whatever time as long as you can reach them. Plushenko reached the standards for world medals at 15 and so could kovtun had met the standards at 17. You know what the standards are and can train for the standards and plushenko did and kovtun didn't. If you want to argue plushenko had a much easier time of it that means everyone did and then you must also realize that kovtun could've met the new standards like Fernandez hanyu etc! I don't know what you are talking about with kovtun being much better than plushenko when the issue is being equal to or better than everyone else dealing with the same standards. Denis ten has met those standards and medaled at worlds 2013 and so could have kovtun. Then at euros 2014 he was inferior to menshov and voronov ending his Olympic campaign because if you can't beat them you aren't even good average.
04-12-2014, 11:48 PM
If Plushenko had the guys to have competed at Euros, he could have still lost to Voronov. Like did he even avoid it... afraid to have another Russian Nationals meltdown and needed a closed doors non-competitive skate to prove himself, instead of compete for his Sochi spot? Talk about average.
The point of the thread were remarks made by Plushenko and people justifying them to be okay even if they're insulting because they happen to be true (because Russian champion and 4th in the World is so average). So if Kovtun called Plushenko a quitter or called Plushenko's quitting the individual event after he got his team medal as totally predictable, he's justified in doing so because its technically true, even if the remarks are inherently negative.
Kovtun must remain tight lipped and be obsequious to the legend that is Plushenko, and Plushenko being a legend can run his mouth and be immune from criticism because he's just telling it like it is, even if he's being disrespectful. Is that how it is?
04-12-2014, 11:54 PM
Plushenko came about in a time where not many guys were consistently landing quads and triple axels and his only rival was Yagudin. Kovtun is emerging at a time when two quads and one or two axels, with the tremendous added difficulty of CoP, is the standard. Calling Kovtun an average skater when Kovtun best SP beats his best SP, and when Kovtun has landed two quads and two axels along with the spins and footwork and transitions that Plu never had to do is comparing apples with oranges.
Originally Posted by gmyers
Speaking of standards, Plushenko was fortunate that he was the only skater consistently meeting the standards at the time post-Yagudin. He would have been destroyed had Buttle had a quad, or Lambiel had an axel, had Chan not got injured and acquired his quad a season earlier, or Takahashi/Joubert not had subpar Olympics. Kovtun is in a time where many guys are meeting the standard so obviously it's WAY harder to replicate Plushenko's success when better all around skaters were giving him easy wins due to their inconsistency. And of course a guy with no quads beat him because the reality is that Plushenko aside from excellent jumps is the "average skater" he is labelling Kovtun as.
And like I said, Plushenko calling out Kovtun for being average in his second season would be like Lipinski calling out Gold for not having a World and Olympic title right from the get-go and labelling her as an "average skater" for not being able to measure up to her success as quickly.
It's b!tchy criticism and anyone with half a brain knows Plushenko is trying to insult Kovtun instead of simply speak his mind. Kovtun has every right to fire back but should really not continue to feed the troll and let him wither into retirement instead of indulging him and letting him be some mosquito who hangs around him his entire career as I'm sure Plushenko will end up trying to be.
04-13-2014, 12:06 AM
Most of plushenkos skate at Russian nationals was doubles mixed with invalidated jumps. It was a bad performance with the jumps. No one and not even plushenko argues agianst he did bad there! Why is it some kind of weapon? He was bad and did mostly doubles. That is not reflective of plushenkos talent at all. Not even in 2014 was it the standard of his talent. He did more triples in sochi. Plushenko did not have a career winning events with that level of jumping.
Plushenko said kovtun was good average because that's what he is compared to the best of today's skaters and its the truth. He wasted spins by doing FUSPs. He goes quad quad 3a 3a and then does simpler triples. He cares nothing of technique. He said he didn't care how a jump looks as long as he does them. He is good average.
The point about meeting whatever standards exist at the time a skater is competing matters. You want to say plushenko had it easy- eveything was so simple- it was simple for everyone then!! So how did he win so much? You want to say plushenko only won because of others flaws and yagudins retirement! But why? It was so easy!!! So plushenko completely dominating meant nothing but that's ridiculous! It Was still extremely hard and plushenko mastered the standards. Chan hanyu Fernandez ten too have reached the standard and so could kovtun if he moved away from good average.
04-13-2014, 12:09 AM
Your level of massive delusion and butthurt is truly something astonishing. You should just shut up immediately on Plushenko as you have NO credability whatsoever when it comes to him.
Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy
04-13-2014, 12:13 AM
Well...call me name if you want but I tend to agree with CanadianSkaterGuy.
04-13-2014, 12:17 AM
You're honestly criticizing KOVTUN of going quad quad 3A 3A? What exactly did Plushenko do his whole career? Did he EVER have a quad in his second half? At least Kovtun puts his axels in the 2nd half. Plenty of skaters do FUsp, like Javier.. Play to what suits you.
Funny thing about standards, once Plushenko found he could win with minimal choreo and just by executing the jumps because none of the other guys could, the standard of his own skating/content dropped. Hence the content-less Olympics 2006 LP which was essentially "Here's all my jumps. Never mind inbetween the elements. Yagudin ain't here, everyone else made errors. Give me my gold." You could even tell by the final 'pose'.
04-13-2014, 12:17 AM
The protocals show Buttle and Lambiel from 2004-2006 coming nowhere near Plushenko even if both had both a quad and triple axel (and Lambiel did have a triple axel and landed it many times). The idea of Joubert ever beating a clean Plushenko, especialy 2006 or earlier, is too laughable for words. The 2004 worlds was one of the best skated mens events in history, by FAR better than anyone we have seen the last 6 years, and guess who was the easy winner. Lambiel skated a clean long program with 2 quads and a triple axel and still came only 4th in the LP and 4th overall, whine a stunning Weir was 5th. Of course CSG in all his delusion talks about the Plushenko of 2010 or even 2014 as if it were exactly the same Plushenko as 1999-2006.
As for many guys today meeting the standards, the standards of what falling and stumbling around alot. The men today are sure masters of that. Hence why someone like Patrick Chan won 2 of his 3 world titles with poor performances, and Hanyu won his Olympic gold with an awful performance. Never in the Plushenko and Yagudin era did you even hope to win medals, let alone the gold medal, with skates like that.
04-13-2014, 12:29 AM
Plushenko did not do FUSPs. You want to say kovtun is trying so much harder on spins and plushenko only did easy spins and everything kovtun is doing Is so much harder so why did plushenko almost never do easy FUSPs? Why did he do all higher difficulty spins than kovtun does? Kovtuns not even trying to equal plushenkos attempts at spin difficulty. When you say everything was easier when plushenko won world championships and he was most consistent why is it that kovtun doesn't try to reach chan hanyu ten by never doing FUSPs? What is kovtuns plan and strategy with doing fusps when Fernandez who also does them tried a quad in the second half? Kovtun didn't try 3 quads at worlds In Japan and because of his single salchow because of his terrible technique on the jump had a jumping pass be worth nothing!
Originally Posted by CanadianSkaterGuy
You want to say everyone when plushenko competed 2002 to 2006 and then again from 2009-2014 was better than him. Under 6.0 you say because he was consistent and it was easy. But why was plushenko the only one consistent when it was easy? Why couldn't anyone have been plushenko. Other people's inconsistency speaks highly of plushenko it doesn't minimize him. Why when "spins meant nothing" was he doing beilman spins? Why when there was cop did he avoid easy FUSPs? Why didn't he do FUSPs if he Didn't care about spins and only focused on jumps?
04-13-2014, 01:05 AM
Kovtun @ WC 2014: SP - three L4 spins; FS - three L4 spins -- 6/6 spins level 4
Originally Posted by gmyers
Total BV for spins: 9.4 (SP) + 9.4 (FS) = 18.6 points
Total points for spins: 11.32 (SP) + 11.47 (FS) = 22.79 points
Plushenko @ Sochi 2014, team event: SP - one L4 spin, one L3 spin, one L2 spin; FS - one L4 spin, two L3 spins -- 2/6 spins level 4
Total BV for spins: 8.3 (SP) + 8.8 (FS) = 17.1 points
Total points for spins: 10.51 (SP) + 10.59 (FS) = 21.10 points
You were saying?
04-13-2014, 01:09 AM
Off the ice
Plushenko was one of the first skaters to get level 4 on steps, and that was before judges began handing those out like candy (I believe Takahashi was the first). He learned how to do quads when they were still not that commonly done and you couldn't put good examples in Dartfish and model your technique on that. I think skaters weren't even allowed to do SP quads early in Plushenko's career, let alone go for two. It's true that he never had a stable 4S that he could have used for that purpose, but Plushenko was among the first to attempt a 4Lz and he did difficult quad combinations in the FS.
By the time the IJS came in, Plushenko was already starting to struggle with injuries, yet he nonetheless managed three Olympic medals in three different games under the current system, along with four European titles, and I don't think it can really be argued that he didn't deserve them (ETA: other than 2012, when you can make a case for Gachinski).
Kovtun was 17 last season, when he was supposedly a junior. Plenty of skaters competed as seniors at age 17 and did quite well - Plushenko, Hanyu and Gachinski all come to mind. Joubert medalled at his first Europeans at the age of 17, and it was only his second senior competition. Han Yan was a 4CC medalist before he turned 17. Kovtun just isn't that special a skater at this point, and my guess is that if he were not Russian, his marks would look more like, say, Kevin van der Perren's than they do now. Certainly he should not be getting PCS in the 80s.
Not winning Russian nationals doesn't make one a bad skater. Yagudin can attest to that.
04-13-2014, 01:16 AM
Ice is slippery
Originally Posted by Buttercup
04-13-2014, 01:22 AM
I agree Kovtun hasn't lit it up in his debut season (or season and a half) as others have. But it's still remarkable the content he pulled off at Russian Nationals to win his National title. He might also be the first skater to land both quad in his SP twice in one season.
For Plushenko to say he's seen nothing special from Kovtun and that he's a "good average skater" when he LOST to Kovtun at Russian Nationals, is ridiculous. If he's criticizing Kovtun's overall skating, that makes it even more hilarious, since Plushenko's non-jump content wasn't exactly something to write home about.
I don't deny Plushenko's technical success either, but it's pretty low of him to continually bash an up-and-coming skater. He reminds me of older pop stars (e.g. Madonna) who bash young up and comers saying that they can't measure up to their legendary success, but really it's a reflection of their own insecurity at their career being over and losing relevance in the wake of younger talent. It's quite sad actually. You wonder if Plushenko will ever compliment any of Kovtun's success or if he'll continue to be bitter about being denied his Russian title. Worse is people actually condoning his disparaging comments. At least when Chan says crap, even as his fan, I acknowledge it and criticize him for it. In the case of Plushy, apparently he can say no wrong.