You make no sense. They are basically the same age. Hanyu is an OC, with 4th senior GP season. Kovtun has no such records. It's only logical that Plushenko praise Hanyu and calls Kovtun average. That is what their records say.
Plushenko:" Kovtun is a good average skater "
- Thread starter volk
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I think Kovtun has earned Plushenko's eternal hatred by beating him at 2014 Russian nationals (making him lobby and submit himself to the humiliation* of test skates to skate in the Munic... I mean Sochi games).
And in Russia if you're more powerful than someone you dislike it seems you can diss them eternally in public, there's not thought given to fairplay or not kicking someone when they're down or letting bygones be bygones.
*in Plushenko's view
And in Russia if you're more powerful than someone you dislike it seems you can diss them eternally in public, there's not thought given to fairplay or not kicking someone when they're down or letting bygones be bygones.
*in Plushenko's view
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In 2013, he essentially went from junior-level to senior-level technical content mid-season, adding a quad + 30 seconds longer in his FS for Nationals/Euros/Worlds (JGPF: http://www.isuresults.com/results/gpf1213/gpf1213_JuniorMen_FS_Scores.pdf vs. http://www.isuresults.com/results/ec2013/ec2013_Men_FS_Scores.pdfThese competitions were less than 2 months apart).
And the American boys were doing that three seasons in a row - skating Junior most of the season, switching to Senior-length and content for Nationals. Whoop-de-doo.
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- Mar 25, 2008
As far as I'm concerned, a skater who skates at multiple senior ISU Championships can't be considered as making a senior debut the next season. And really, Kovtun was given the most low pressure senior debut there is - a WTT assignment. But even if we consider this season to be Kovtun's debut, I hardly think a senior debut at age 18 is comparable to one at age 15.
But let's compare career development rather than age, since apparently that tells us so much. Well, Plushenko at 16 (1999, the end of his second senior season): 2 World medals, 2 European medals, a GPF medal, 5 GP medals and 2 wins (back then skaters could get three assignments), 1 National title and a bronze. He also won JW at the age of 14. And I do mean 14 - it was held shortly after his birthday. Plushenko's age-18 season is a column of golden 1s on Wikipedia; he was undefeated. Given all that, I can certainly understand why Plushenko would look at someone whose best result, at the age of 18 after two senior seasons, is a GP silver, whose jump technique is certainly not up to Mishin standards and who's not a particularly good performer even compared to others his age, and consider him only good-average. And maybe that will change - Javier Fernandez had his breakthrough at a later age, as did most of the Japanese guys. But at the moment Plushenko's assessment is spot on.
I'd rather watch Menshov than Kovtun any day.
But let's compare career development rather than age, since apparently that tells us so much. Well, Plushenko at 16 (1999, the end of his second senior season): 2 World medals, 2 European medals, a GPF medal, 5 GP medals and 2 wins (back then skaters could get three assignments), 1 National title and a bronze. He also won JW at the age of 14. And I do mean 14 - it was held shortly after his birthday. Plushenko's age-18 season is a column of golden 1s on Wikipedia; he was undefeated. Given all that, I can certainly understand why Plushenko would look at someone whose best result, at the age of 18 after two senior seasons, is a GP silver, whose jump technique is certainly not up to Mishin standards and who's not a particularly good performer even compared to others his age, and consider him only good-average. And maybe that will change - Javier Fernandez had his breakthrough at a later age, as did most of the Japanese guys. But at the moment Plushenko's assessment is spot on.
I'd rather watch Menshov than Kovtun any day.
let's be honest here is kovtun a wunderkind, a natural genius like plushenko, yagudin, hanyu, chan? well no... but does he have talent? can he become a force to be reckoned? hell yes /(and I'm saying this as someone that can't stand him...) right now I agree that he is not a GREAT skater but 4th at 18 in the world isn't too shabby so I would say that he is far better than your average skater... and maybe people should remember that some of those that are considered the greatest skater of the last few olympic cycle didn't do so weel until they were well into their twenties (ie, takahashi, lambiel, to a lesser extent fernandez)
Exactly, to be slagging someone off on the basis of 1.5 senior seasons is ridiculous. People develop at different rates and there is nothing wrong with that. Perhaps Plushenko would like to deliver his verdict at the end of Kovtun's career rather than the start.
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- Feb 13, 2014
That would be the best answer btw.So... When a reporter asks his opinion of Kovtun's skating, he should just say "dunno, ask me again in 10 years"?
Seriously?
That would be the best answer btw.
"Nah, can't be bothered to form an opinion yet."
"WAIT, HE SAID WHAT?!?!?! WHAT AN EVIL MEANIE!!!!! HE SHOULD BE BANNED FROM SPEAKING UNTIL HE GOES THROUGH A PR RE-EDUCATION PROGRAM AND LEARNS TO WRAP HIS ANSWERS IN SUNSHINE AND COTTON CANDY!!!"
So a FCSp1 is more complicated than a FUSp4?You do realise how spins and levels work, right?... features/levels are demonstrations of complexity/difficulty. By it's very definition, a level is indicative of a more complicated spin. Are you going to get on Takahashi's case for trying a layback spin instead of "more complicated spins"?
There are plenty of skaters who do FUSP - Kovtun, Abbott, Fernandez... and your exact quote was "Kovtun's not even trying to equal Plushenko's difficulty" - when Kovtun did all level 4 spins in both programs, meaning he's going for more difficult features. Plushenko doing a flying camel because it's harder than an upright spin doesn't mean he's more ambitious, it means he's more comfortable with it. There's nothing to say Kovtun can't do a flying camel... he simply prefers to do a FUSp.
Are you going to start criticizing all the skaters who do a flying sit instead of a flying camel, since the latter is considered harder?
IJS is clear that FUSPs are the lowest valued spins. What is your point? Does Chan nd hanyu do any FUSPs or as many as kovtun? I don't see your point at all. Getting levels 4 on FUSPs isn't even tried by most because value is lower than others. Why are you even defending doing FUSPs? You say IJS has made all spins harder and more complicated but that's not true if you do as many FUSPs as kovtun does.
There is criticism, and then there is insults. As a veteran, he should know better and be more mature about discussing his opinions of other skaters. "I've seen nothing special" when a skater qualifies for the GP, wins Russian Nationals in their first year as a senior, and places 4th at Worlds - followed by praise of Voronov and Menshov specifically for a competition where they beat Kovtun - I mean, come on, even an idiot can read between the lines. He wasn't praising Voronov/Menshov so much as taking a slew of cheap shots at Kovtun. Although I suppose the people who neglect are the same who think Yana wasn't setting Kovtun up by saying he must medal at Worlds. :sarcasm:
Kovtun DOES work hard on spins, that's how he got all his spins to level 4 by the time of Worlds. Plushenko on the other hand, does not -- he will settle for performing level 2's and 3's -- as mentioned, only 2/6 spins were a level 4 in Sochi for Plushenko. And when was the last time, if ever, that Plushenko has maximized his spins to all level 4's? (Here's an instance of him doing a FSSp instead of a FCSp -- giving up 0.2 point potential!
Speaking of "giving up point potential", let's not remind you of Vancouver 2010.
You are just ignoring my point entirely and seemingly forgot yours. If you are saying plushenko never cared about doing spins and coasted on jumps and Kovtun is more talented and better than plushenko why would kovtun not try to equal plushenkos attempts to maximize difficulty on all spins and avoid doing the lowest valued FUSPs?
Munich? The games in sochi were like the nazi games? What's the point in saying that? You know that the government that hosted Munich was overthown as a due to an invasion and war by the allies. Do you support ansimlar situation now? Countries going in and overthrowing Putin?
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- Jan 25, 2013
And you missed the point (and very obvious indication) of how Kovtun did attempt to maximize his difficulty on spins by doing all level 4.
And perhaps Kovtun can't execute a flying camel with the same quality as. FUSp4 so it makes more sense to do a FUSp. ir example you can't do a death drop into a camel and can only do one into a sit or upright. Do you criticize Kim for not doing a biellman and just a level 3 layback? Do you criticize Plushenko for doing the lowest value quad and not attempting 4S? Do you criticize the tons of pair skaters who don't try reverse lifts for that extra 0.5?
No because it would be absurd as they clearly play to their strengths and don't give a crap about the extra 0.2 points or whatever.. and a well executed FUSP4 beats a poorly executed FCSP3 or FCSP4.
Although if you fail to acknowledge that a skater upping their levels is an indication of higher complexity and difficulty, perhaps you need to learn more about how the system works.
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- Jan 25, 2013
So... When a reporter asks his opinion of Kovtun's skating, he should just say "dunno, ask me again in 10 years"?
Seriously?
You're right, clearly he shouldn't stifle his opinion and should just be a jerk and say he's seen nothing special and is good average. There's a huge difference between speaking your mind and providing constructive criticism, and completely attempting to trivialize your opponent.
Same as before... He should have left it as "Denis Ten deserved to win" and not follow it up with disparaging remarks about the Canadian federation earning Chan his 2013 title for him. Especially after the subsequent farce of Sochi judging.
I don't care how many medals he has, he does not get a free pass to be an @$$ to his fellow skaters. If anything he should know better.
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- Jan 25, 2013
Exactly. How stupid is it to label someone as an average skater after their second season competing in senior events. It would be like criticizing Brown as technically average if he doesn't have a consistent quad by this upcoming season.
Kovtun still qualified for the GPF in his first senior season which is something Hanyu failed to do. Let's see what he does next season before dismissing him as an average skater.
Russia should be lucky that they have someone so young with technical chops, who is an international threat compared to Menshov, with much better artistry than Voronov, and more fight in him than Gachinski, and Plushenko is continually trying to debase him because he got his @$$ handed to him at Nationals.
Or perhaps this is all part of Plushenko's elaborate ruse to turn Kovtun into a stronger skater by being hard on him, and deliberately throwing shade at him, and has Kovtun's best interests at heart. Hah, right, that must be it.
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- Nov 12, 2013
I still think it is unfair for Plushenko to take Kovtun's spot and then do a no-show - Kovtun should have skated at both Team and SIngles at Sochi, it's possibly even worse than Mirai/Ashley, imagine if Ashley had quit at the last minute because of chronic health problems which she knew about, squandering Mirai's spot, Mirai's fans would be livid.
As for Kovtun, when he's "on", he is impressive, and let's not forget he came in 4th at Worlds after all. By no means is he currently a force to be reckoned with, but I wouldn't bet against the sharp-eyed Tarasova.
Fast forward to 7:30-8:00 to see how the camera caught her coaching Kovtun in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1LqZtubZos
As for Kovtun, when he's "on", he is impressive, and let's not forget he came in 4th at Worlds after all. By no means is he currently a force to be reckoned with, but I wouldn't bet against the sharp-eyed Tarasova.
Fast forward to 7:30-8:00 to see how the camera caught her coaching Kovtun in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1LqZtubZos
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- Feb 13, 2014
uh!!!As for Kovtun, when he's "on", he is impressive, and let's not forget he came in 4th at Worlds after all. By no means is he currently a force to be reckoned with, but I wouldn't bet against the sharp-eyed Tarasova.
Fast forward to 7:30-8:00 to see how the camera caught her coaching Kovtun in this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A1LqZtubZos
NOOOO! If I were a figure skater, I would rather never be Kovtun in that moment. She looks truly like a witch-like godmother to me. And it's not just me, if you want any reference, then visit this post: http://saydox.tumblr.com/post/82440623747/rinkwatchers-tatiana-tarasova-reminds-me-ofSeriously, how can Yubaba exits in real life, but that is so true.
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- Feb 13, 2014
Excuse me, you are comparing a 18 year old boy to a 15 year old boy which is completely absurd.
I know you dislike Hanyu's style because he beat PChan, but at least give him some credit. Hanyu's debut at senior field was at 15 while Kovtun at 18. It's true that Hanyu debuted earlier and his 1st GP was not successful but it's extremely unfair to compare a boy at 15 years old with a boy at 18 years old, no matter how late Kovtun arrives the senior field, he's still much older than Hanyu was at his debut.:sarcasm:- Joined
- Nov 12, 2013
uh!!!
Seriously, how can Yubaba exits in real life, but that is so true.
It's so true, Yubaba=Tarasova!
I suspect Kovtun is still like a kid, and Russians (come to think of it, most figure skating coaches) are not known to spare the rod.I think it's a Faustian pact for the skaters, since she did groom world champions - they would sell their very souls to be at the very top, I reckon! :scratch:
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- Jan 25, 2013
Age is the stupidest comparison. Let's stop assessing skaters based on when they shot out of their mom or decided to take up skating. Especially when there are late bloomers in the sport.
And if you really want to go there, Kovtun has a handle on his 4S and 4T before Hanyu (who arguably still needs to get a handle on his 4S), and Kovtun is confident enough to include both in his SP at the age of 18.
Kovtun being 18 and having both quads is impressive and not something a lot of skaters can boast. Him adding a quad mid season in 2013-2014 is particularly impressive... And he landed both quad toes in his 2013 FS at Nationals, Euros and Worlds. Even his 2013 JGPF freeskate as a 17 year old was technically superior to Hanyu's Worlds debut as a 17 y/o (if we are dwelling on age again).
Also how many seniors do two quads in their Worlds debut let alone a junior that switches to senior events mid-season?
And if you really want to go there, Kovtun has a handle on his 4S and 4T before Hanyu (who arguably still needs to get a handle on his 4S), and Kovtun is confident enough to include both in his SP at the age of 18.
Kovtun being 18 and having both quads is impressive and not something a lot of skaters can boast. Him adding a quad mid season in 2013-2014 is particularly impressive... And he landed both quad toes in his 2013 FS at Nationals, Euros and Worlds. Even his 2013 JGPF freeskate as a 17 year old was technically superior to Hanyu's Worlds debut as a 17 y/o (if we are dwelling on age again).
Also how many seniors do two quads in their Worlds debut let alone a junior that switches to senior events mid-season?
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