The Japanese Ladies

[euterpe]

Vash01: "I really feel that Miki is being judged too harshly, too soon. She is young and has not developed all aspects of her skating. Remember what Kristi Yamaguchi looked like in 1989, or Michelle in 1994. Miki needs time to develop her presentation."

Michelle was THIRTEEN in 1994! And looked it! Michelle sure didn't look undeveloped when she won her first World title at 15 in 1996. Miki is SIXTEEN! At 16, Sasha's presentation was already causing a minor sensation.

The problem is Miki has spent all of her time on developing jumps, and not much time on developing her SKATING. She is also one of the least musical skaters I have ever seen, and that is going to be a serious problem for her in developing her presentation skills.

[dizzydi]

Vash,

I absolutely agree with you about Carolina. Her LP performance was terrible. Her scores were ridiculously high for that program. I felt sorry and embarassed for her because she looked worse than most juniors. Talk about a fall disrupting a program. When she fell on her back, that was a mess!

Her placement at 2004 Worlds is a joke, in my opinion.


Dizzy

[Vash01]

Originally posted by euterpe
Vash01: "I really feel that Miki is being judged too harshly, too soon. She is young and has not developed all aspects of her skating. Remember what Kristi Yamaguchi looked like in 1989, or Michelle in 1994. Miki needs time to develop her presentation."

Michelle was THIRTEEN in 1994! And looked it! Michelle sure didn't look undeveloped when she won her first World title at 15 in 1996. Miki is SIXTEEN! At 16, Sasha's presentation was already causing a minor sensation.

The problem is Miki has spent all of her time on developing jumps, and not much time on developing her SKATING. She is also one of the least musical skaters I have ever seen, and that is going to be a serious problem for her in developing her presentation skills.

Michelle and Sasha were exceptions. Most 16 year olds are not that developed in their presentation. Katia Gordeeva at 16 was a mature pairs skater, but not all 16 year olds are. These ladies are/were exceptions. Compared to other 16 year olds Miki does not look bad at all; just average in her presentation. For example, compare her with 17 year old Carolina Kostner or 16 year old Sarah Hughes who skated with lot of joy but awful posture. So what if Miki spent more time developing her jumps? Others developed artistry but not jumps so it evens out.

[euterpe]

Hughes may have had poor posture, but she WAS musical and at 16 she was able to interpret her programs--you didn't see stroking or moves unrelated to the music. And yes, she DID show joy. She didn't relate that much to the audience, but it was plain she understood her music and expressed it, at least for herself.

Ando hasn't even scratched the surface of musical interpretation, and I get the feeling she simply doesn't relate to the music she is using at all. I haven't seen anything like simple joy in her skating. To me, it looks like she has a job to do and she is grimly doing it.

[Jimena]

My first post, so please be gentle.

Ando hasn't even scratched the surface of musical interpretation, and I get the feeling she simply doesn't relate to the music she is using at all. I haven't seen anything like simple joy in her skating. To me, it looks like she has a job to do and she is grimly doing it.

I might have to disagree with you there. To me she looked overwhelmed by the ocassion during the LP, but she was lovely in the SP, including wonderful spins, great flow, great 3-3, lovely arms, good musicality... She was wonderful, and made a very good first impression on me.

And I don't think that Carolina's lacking that much either in the presentation department. She needs to improve her hands, IMO, mostly, because she keeps them stiff when doing crossovers and has developed a nervous tick when preparing for a Lutz of flip. Other than that, her spins (except the layback) are great, her flow is unmatched and she is musical.

[Mathman]

Hi Jimena. Thanks for jumping in. We're a pretty gentle bunch here, usually. I hope you enjoy Golden Skate.

I saw clips of Miki Ando from the Japanese Nationals. I liked her presentation just fine. I agree that in the Worlds LP she felt "overwhelmed by the occasion" -- who wouldn't?

As for Carolina Kostner, this was the first time I saw her skate and I was a little bit disappointed after all the hullabaloo. I have to give her credit or not backing down and giving a good attempt at all of her technical elements, but I thought she was overmarked. I thought Julia Sebestien should have been fourth, then Ando, then Kostner.

Mathman

[berthes ghost]

Look up "inconsistant" in the dictionary and there is a picture of Carolina Kostner.

This was the 4th time I'd seen her live, and the expression "on any given day" comes to mind.

03 JGPF she was flat and unremarkable.
03 Euros she bombed the SP, but set the place on fire with a feisty LP.
04 Euros she was a mess.
04 Worlds, she was energetic in the SP, but crashed and burned half way thru the LP.

I'm talking about presentation. Hot and Cold, one never knows if Carolina is going to show or her evil twin cousin.

[Jimena]

Mathman,

Yes, I think that Kostner was overmarked. I just don't think she's that "juniorish" in the presentation department...

Oh, and thanks for welcoming me!

Jimena :-)

[Ogre Mage]

With regards to Ando, I think perhaps she may just need some time yet. Everyone matures at different paces. Look, for instance, at Shizuka or Irina Slutskaya. Neither were very impressive as teenagers. But both ladies, as they grew older, eventually blossomed and began to really improve both technically and artistically -- culminating in World Gold Medals at the ripe old age of 22. If you compare Shizuka or Irina at the 1998 Olympics vs. Irina's 2002 Worlds win or Shizuka this year, it looks like two entirely different skaters.

Kwan is unique in that she rose to the top as a youngster (15) and managed to stay there. But she is very, very unusual in this regard -- very few skaters have managed to do that.

Also, while I hammered Kostner's performance at this worlds, I happen to think she is a skater with great basics and much potential. That LP, however, might be the most awful thing I've seen since Laeticia Hubert's LP in Albertville. Mainly, I am just angry that $peedy's political "fix" seems to be in.

[hockeyfan228]

Ando had a lightness in the quali round that changed to heaviness in the LP, but even so, I thought that the "artistry" was grafted on in both. I had a rather long discussion with Rosaleen about this in Dortmund, and she said she was totally convinced by Ando's Firebird in the quali rounds, while I wasn't. However, in the SP I thought her presentation was wonderful: light and fluid.

I thought that Kostner should have won the SP, based on her technical content and clean landing on the 3/3 and great flow in and out of the 3R, with Sebestyen in second, based on a lesser jump content, with no less quality. As much as I loved Cohen's SP, she flutzed, and this is a technical program.

In my opinion, Kostner and Ando are still SP skaters. Their SP and LP's were like night and day. And I was horribly disappointed in Kostner's LP this year. She took out most of the turns that gave last year's program its complexity, and while she did the same half rink COE spiral that Kwan did, she omitted several change of edge and position spirals that she had last year. Her speed is magnificent, but her flow suffered a bit from DC by being so straight-ahead instead of curving. Ironically Slutskaya gained more flow when she slowed down a bit and took the curves in her LP's, but she also lost her power, and it was clear watching her approaches into jumps that she wasn't going to make them.

[Vash01]

I had watched Ando's SP from the Japanese nationals and I was very impressed. The music from The Pianist is perfect for her SP. I am not sure the Firebird was right for her. It is a powerful music and she has not developed that kind of feeling yet.

She seemed to move well across the ice and had good arm positions. Her spiral needs work. She has not mastered an LP yet, IMO. She seems to think 'element to element'. Still, she looked quite good at the Jr. Worlds which she won. She seems to be working on other aspects too (not just jumps) but she is not quite there, and that is perfectly normal for a 16 year old. She definitely seemed nervous at worlds while skating the LP. She was in a position to actually win in her first attempt. That would make most skaters nervous. Toward the end it seemed to sap her energy but to her credit she stayed on her feet.

I am sure this was a great learning experience for her. I am really interested in seeing how she develops in the next 1 to 2 years.

[Joesitz]

Good post, Hockeyfan. Always giving greatinsight that which you and others know.

This is a discussion of the Japanese Ladies and I plan to submit another topic for the Euroepan (non Russian) Ladies as well as The Russian Ladies.

It is just a relaxed musing of those wonderful skaters "out there in the dark" whom we never see that much of on ABC. Some posters do see them and we welcome their insight into what we do not see.

Joe

This is not a prediction thread. It is a critique of what you know and open to other posters' views.

Cheers - Joe

[thvudragon]

Originally posted by berthes ghost
Look up "inconsistant" in the dictionary and there is a picture of Carolina Kostner.

Carolina has made great strides in her consistancy. At the beginning of the season, she was struggling with all of her jumps, let alone doing 3/3/3 like she is doing now. I hope she can overcome her problems because I admire her drive to actually do a true lutz and flip (unlike the rest of the lazy skaters).

Goooooo Carolina and her 3/3/3s and true lutz and flip!

TV

[chuckm]

Some have said that Miki was 'overwhelmed' at Worlds, and that 's why her FS of "Firebird" was so flat. Well, Miki did "Firebird" at JUNIOR Worlds, too, and it was just as flat. She ran out of gas about midway at Junior Worlds, when the program was a lot shorter than it was at Senior Worlds. It couldn't have been that she was overwhelmed at Junior Worlds, since that was her third appearance there, and she was the odds-on favorite to win. Miki looked listless and bored in her Junior Worlds performances. I thought both Katy Taylor's and Kimmie Meissner's presentations far superior to Miki's. They had enthusiasm and energy, and she was so dull in comparison.

Miki does OK in her SPs because after all the SP is a technical exercise and presentation doesn't count as much. But she never really skates to the music. She skates with music in the background and she pays no attention to it. Not a musical skater at all, IMHO.

I have to say I was underwhelmed by Miki Ando in both Junior and Senior Worlds.