- Joined
- Mar 20, 2013
Coach Rundown
- Thread starter TheGrandSophy
- Start date
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2013
As early as 2009 where Domnina and Shabalin were still considered gold-medal material, Voir were still up and coming but still far more well-rewarded than DW. Davis and White always fell behind Voir in the juniors and seniors until 2010 when the trend began reverse.
Meryl doesn't have spatial/depth perception. How she is able to twizzle like the Looney Tunes Road Runner never ceases to amaze me. That is a limitation she had to overcome. When they debuted in seniors, they and Voir were in the top 10, but they were still 7th the next year while Voir won the silver. Even in 2009 when the compulsories were still active, D&W's Paso Doble CD, while provocative and exciting to watch, was markedly inferior to Domnina and Shabalin and Voir. Their dance pattern started out fast but their speed decreased towards the end. They weren't naturally gifted with the deepest knee bends, curves, and edges. They didn't have the classical lines that ice dancing was known for. They didn't point their toes, have matching leg lines, and extension. Within a year, however, their Tango Romantica CD was much more improved, was miles and miles better than most couples, and really the only ones who performed the better Tango Romantica CDs were DomShabs and Voir. They were correctly ranked after the CD in Vancouver. They consulted Elena Tchaikovskaya who invented the pattern for the Tango Romantica. They had to make up for the lack of natural abilities in certain areas but their drive, intelligence, and passion for excellence was probably more than anyone else.
I'm not a technical expert. Doris, Mrs P, and forgive me if I can't remember the others are far more knowledgeable. They did charts for ice dancing scores for god's sake.
He landed an axel at his very first practice?! Most kids can't even stand without assistance during their first skate!
Imo, Plush definitely had some insane talent as well as the capacity for hard work. Might be a bit hard to remember now, since he's the resident geriatric grandfather, but he started off as a wunderkind like Hanyu. I don't doubt the effectiveness of competitive drive and training, but he's got to have some crazy talent to relearn his jumps after all those surgeries.
I'll hold off on evaluating Hanyu until we get a few more years into his career.
I was really impressed with his free skate in Saitama, but he hasn't been immune to Olympic pressure (can't blame him though).^ Sure, Plushy is more gifted in the natural talent department than, say, Lysacek, but when it comes to the artistic side of skating, feel for music, flow etc... Well, maybe it's better not to debate that, people have different tastes 
Weir did have experience on skating on a frozen cornfield before his first time at the rink. I'm sure that experience helped him stay on his feet on non-bumpy ice, heh.
Just a little addition to BlackPack's post about D/W... Besides drive, intelligence and passion, also the fact that they have (by all accounts) a genuinely good and respectful partnership helped them to become such a successful and consistent team. Recently there's been a lot of talk here about Ilinykh/Katsalapov splitting, presumably because of their strained relationship with each other. So there's speculation about whether they could have overcome their interpersonal issues and become a more consistent team, or whether it was better for them to split and start again with new partners, because they were consistently inconsistent at competitions (sometimes doing great, sometimes making costly mistakes)... Either way, when it comes to ice dance and pairs, it's not just about individual abilities and hard work, it's also about the messy business of two people having an intense and intimate working relationship for a prolonged period of time. It doesn't always work out.
Weir did have experience on skating on a frozen cornfield before his first time at the rink. I'm sure that experience helped him stay on his feet on non-bumpy ice, heh.
Just a little addition to BlackPack's post about D/W... Besides drive, intelligence and passion, also the fact that they have (by all accounts) a genuinely good and respectful partnership helped them to become such a successful and consistent team. Recently there's been a lot of talk here about Ilinykh/Katsalapov splitting, presumably because of their strained relationship with each other. So there's speculation about whether they could have overcome their interpersonal issues and become a more consistent team, or whether it was better for them to split and start again with new partners, because they were consistently inconsistent at competitions (sometimes doing great, sometimes making costly mistakes)... Either way, when it comes to ice dance and pairs, it's not just about individual abilities and hard work, it's also about the messy business of two people having an intense and intimate working relationship for a prolonged period of time. It doesn't always work out.
- Joined
- Feb 13, 2014
Sure, I/K off ice relationship harmed them pretty badly, despite their talents. So when it comes to natural talents of ice dancers, it's very hard to evaluate them.
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2014
As early as 2009 where Domnina and Shabalin were still considered gold-medal material, Voir were still up and coming but still far more well-rewarded than DW. Davis and White always fell behind Voir in the juniors and seniors until 2010 when the trend began reverse.
Meryl doesn't have spatial/depth perception. How she is able to twizzle like the Looney Tunes Road Runner never ceases to amaze me. That is a limitation she had to overcome. When they debuted in seniors, they and Voir were in the top 10, but they were still 7th the next year while Voir won the silver. Even in 2009 when the compulsories were still active, D&W's Paso Doble CD, while provocative and exciting to watch, was markedly inferior to Domnina and Shabalin and Voir. Their dance pattern started out fast but their speed decreased towards the end. They weren't naturally gifted with the deepest knee bends, curves, and edges. They didn't have the classical lines that ice dancing was known for. They didn't point their toes, have matching leg lines, and extension. Within a year, however, their Tango Romantica CD was much more improved, was miles and miles better than most couples, and really the only ones who performed the better Tango Romantica CDs were DomShabs and Voir. They were correctly ranked after the CD in Vancouver. They consulted Elena Tchaikovskaya who invented the pattern for the Tango Romantica. They had to make up for the lack of natural abilities in certain areas but their drive, intelligence, and passion for excellence was probably more than anyone else.
I'm not a technical expert. Doris, Mrs P, and forgive me if I can't remember the others are far more knowledgeable. They did charts for ice dancing scores for god's sake.
That is very interesting. Thank you!
Talking of good and respectful partnerships, are V/T in the pairs supposed to have one? You see, I remember seeing a programme (last year?) when T made a big error and V seemed really consoling and very sure to be 'keeping an eye' on him as they waited for their marks. It looked very nice. Sorry for the clueless questions, but I really am only just starting to watch FS more consistently and intensely. Thanks for all your patience!
@nimi
We'll probably be here all day if we debated "artistic side of skating," let alone some imagined potential/talent for the artistic side of skating. I give Plush serious props for actually portraying the story of The Dying Swan though, while Weir opted for a simple "lovely costume and lovely movements" approach. (Granted, that's comparing a free skate to a short program, so I should just pause it here).
Frozen cornfield? Oh yeah, that's bound to give someone crazy good balance. I think there was some video or other of Arakawa on bumpy ice, and it looked extremely difficult even for her. Even so, axel on first practice is :thumbsup:
We'll probably be here all day if we debated "artistic side of skating," let alone some imagined potential/talent for the artistic side of skating. I give Plush serious props for actually portraying the story of The Dying Swan though, while Weir opted for a simple "lovely costume and lovely movements" approach. (Granted, that's comparing a free skate to a short program, so I should just pause it here).
Frozen cornfield? Oh yeah, that's bound to give someone crazy good balance. I think there was some video or other of Arakawa on bumpy ice, and it looked extremely difficult even for her. Even so, axel on first practice is :thumbsup:
^ Some people equate artistry with deep edges and skilled footwork, pure and simple, others may think it's the vigorous windmilling of arms combined with intense facial expressions while trying to convey a dramatic theme, yet others put emphasis on costume choices and overall prettiness, so yeah, I guess "artistic side of skating" is a doomed subject for conversation. 
BTW, AFAIK The Swan as a musical piece from Le carnaval des animaux didn't portray a dying swan and didn't have a storyline (unlike the Dying Swan ballet number choreographed to that music), so I don't think Weir did injustice to the piece by going the elegantly gliding living swan route.
BTW, AFAIK The Swan as a musical piece from Le carnaval des animaux didn't portray a dying swan and didn't have a storyline (unlike the Dying Swan ballet number choreographed to that music), so I don't think Weir did injustice to the piece by going the elegantly gliding living swan route.
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2013
That is very interesting. Thank you!
Talking of good and respectful partnerships, are V/T in the pairs supposed to have one? You see, I remember seeing a programme (last year?) when T made a big error and V seemed really consoling and very sure to be 'keeping an eye' on him as they waited for their marks. It looked very nice. Sorry for the clueless questions, but I really am only just starting to watch FS more consistently and intensely. Thanks for all your patience!
I haven't followed V&T very closely, but they are/were rumored to be romantically involved. His fall in the 2013 LP was minor, caught an edge, happens to the best of skaters, and it wasn't during an element. They still got the highest world record score for pairs in that competition.
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2013
^ Some people equate artistry with deep edges and skilled footwork, pure and simple, others may think it's the vigorous windmilling of arms combined with intense facial expressions while trying to convey a dramatic theme, yet others put emphasis on costume choices and overall prettiness, so yeah, I guess "artistic side of skating" is a doomed subject for conversation.
BTW, AFAIK The Swan as a musical piece from Le carnaval des animaux didn't portray a dying swan and didn't have a storyline (unlike the Dying Swan ballet number choreographed to that music), so I don't think Weir did injustice to the piece by going the elegantly gliding living swan route.
While it is true that any discussion of artistry is subjective and based on one's values, there are objective criteria for recognizing beauty. It exists in nature. Golden ratio. The ancient Greeks analyzed beauty and aesthetics philosophically.
Line, posture, and extension do comprise a large part of a skater's artistry, and this is actual quantifiable (if you really want to use a protractor on a skater's free leg during a spiral).
I think something's wrong if we're trying to quantify beauty by angles and degrees. Of course certain positions help and we can discuss what we find beautiful/not beautiful, but it's not something to be measured. Some people think Nancy Kerrigan was beauty on ice and I can barely watch her without falling asleep, but I certainly can't stop someone else from finding her compelling.
I never suggested Weir did the music an injustice. Far from it! I just prefer Plush's attempt (whether you think it's successful or not) of conveying the story.
...we are way, way off-topic. So, umm... what are some coaches that you thought really transformed a certain skater?
I never suggested Weir did the music an injustice. Far from it! I just prefer Plush's attempt (whether you think it's successful or not) of conveying the story.
...we are way, way off-topic. So, umm... what are some coaches that you thought really transformed a certain skater?
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2014
That's a good question.
Also, any coach who you think has encouraged one or more of their skater/s in completely the wrong direction?
Also, any coach who you think has encouraged one or more of their skater/s in completely the wrong direction?
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2013
Aesthetic standards do have quantifiable standards. For a person to experience a skater's performance emotionally, yes, you do need standards and technical skills to convey the magical and imaginative. You can have beauty like Kerrigan but at the same time be the least charismatic skater. A skater with good line is more effective in reaching the audience than a sloppy skater.
Skaters are transformed when they are ready to be transformed. Some don't even think they need to improve. When Kwan was 4th in 1995 Worlds despite having skated one the most difficult programs. She knew she had to do something and in a year she was Salome. Lori Nichols also choreographed for other skaters but she couldn't turn them into Kwan.
It's not so much a coach/choreographer who does the Pygmalion, but the willingness of the student to change. The most a coach/choreographer can do is to bring out the students' best qualities and refine them. I think Krylova does a great job especially with Weaver and Poje. Their "Je Suis Malade" not only expressed their style, but it was truly emotional and passionate, something that is lost in the quest for ridiculous complexity in ice dancing. Tarasova was a genius (in her earlier career) in helping Klimova and Ponomarenko craft "A Man and a Woman" or help Yagudin with "Winter." She didn't always succeed as in the case with Mao.
I think Angelika Krylova should be in every top five for ice dance. She has a very impressive roster at the moment: Weaver/Poje, Hawayek/Baker, Paul/Islam, Hubbell/Donahue, and Aldridge/Eaton. I think she is looking at a few years with multiple World top ten teams and maybe even a World Champion this quad. She almost pulled it off this year.
I was a huge K/O fan back in the 90s, so I am absolutely thrilled to see Angelika have such a successful second career. I am also very curious to see how Barbara Fusar-Poli's teams do going forward.
I was a huge K/O fan back in the 90s, so I am absolutely thrilled to see Angelika have such a successful second career. I am also very curious to see how Barbara Fusar-Poli's teams do going forward.
